Why has DB gone so crazy with new forms?

[FiReFTW]

I really dislike this, ever since Super they have gone absolutely bananas with new forms, its completely ridicilous if you ask me.

Original Dragonball had no new forms in 150~ episodes

Original Dragonball Z went on for almost 300 episodes and you had basically the golden super saiyan form... and at around halfmark of the series you got SSJ2 which is not that much different its an upgraded SS, ascended SSJ done perfectly (unlike flawed super vegeta, trunks etc), and then towards the end Goku got SSJ3 the next ascended state to the SS form but could not use it properly at all and drained his energy extremely fast and was flawed.

Fast forward to DB Super... 130~ episodes and you have super saiyan god with red hair.... super saiyan blue with blue hair...Vegeta ultra blue or whatever form, ultra instinct omen.... ultra instinct mastered.... its absolutely crazy... the only saving grace is that the ultra instinct was not perfected yet, and even that is not so much of a saving grace.

Now you get the first new arc after the tournament of power with Moro...look and behold... goku not only almost skipped omen not even using it for more than a tiny bit (kind of like super saiyan god again), but he also perfected the form after, mastered ultra instinct...

I mean this is just going WAY too fast... and I'm not a fan at all of this... I have nothing against transformations, but only if there is a proper build up to them and lots of training and mastering and honing until you finally master that... but ever since super theres no more build up like that anymore or anything, you just have new transformations one after the other...

Whats the point of a form if the next chapter you get a brand new form again, and the chapter after you get a new form again... I mean its just ridicilous to me and it really brings the quality and level down for me.

[BWri]

Its easy and lazy and the quickest way to catch people's attentions and sell merchandise. It''s the way most entertainment is going these days.

[Matches Malone]

The grade form is just applying to Ssj1 the same bulky muscle technique Freeza and Roshi used. Ssj2 wasn't treated as a new form when it was introduced, it was just a more perfected version of the original Ssj form. We didn't get a truly new form until Goku went Ssj3 against Fat Buu, which was in chapter 474, but up till that point the original Ssj form was the main one since chapter 318. Ssj3 didn't even work half the time, resulting in the final battle being resolved without it. For Ssj4, it wasn't introduced until GT's 35th episode, 81 episodes after Ssj3 was introduced in Z's 245th episode, and it remained GT's main form until it concluded.

Its easy and lazy and the quickest way to catch people's attentions and sell merchandise.

This. It gives them a way out of being creative storytellers. Why bother putting the characters in interesting situations when we can just change their hair color ?

[JewyB]

The grade form is just applying to Ssj1 the same bulky muscle technique Freeza and Roshi used. Ssj2 wasn't treated as a new form when it was introduced, it was just a more perfected version of the original Ssj form. We didn't get a truly new form until Goku went Ssj3 against Fat Buu, which was in chapter 474, but up till that point the original Ssj form was the main one since chapter 318. Ssj3 didn't even work half the time, resulting in the final battle being resolved without it. For Ssj4, it wasn't introduced until GT's 35th episode, 81 episodes after Ssj3 was introduced in Z's 245th episode, and it remained GT's main form until it concluded.

The only issue with this is it can kinda be argued the same about Super that we only really got 1 new form. SSG isn't a form but an unlocking of god ki in base form. SSGSS is super saiyan on top of that form, and i guess that makes it a new form but also an old form? SSGSSx20KK Is that same form with a technique stacked on top. Vegetas SSBE is never acknowledged as a new form when it was introduced. UI is still being debated over form/technique, i lie i nthe technique department.

It's all technicalities when both Z and Super are dense with forms in general, its kinda DB's thing now.

[Matches Malone]

The only issue with this is it can kinda be argued the same about Super that we only really got 1 new form. SSG isn't a form but an unlocking of god ki in base form. SSGSS is super saiyan on top of that form, and i guess that makes it a new form but also an old form?

SSGSSx20KK Is that same form with a technique stacked on top. Vegetas SSBE is never acknowledged as a new form when it was introduced.

I'd agree if there wasn't such a visual change to them. If SsjG was just a powered up base form and SsjGSsj (who came up with this name ?) was a powered up Ssj1 with slight visual change instead of a different hair color, I wouldn't consider them "new". Omen is a great example of what I'm talking about, it's new, but not new.

I agree with these 2.

Z gave us Ssj1 (and its variants) and Ssj3. GT gave us Ssj4. Super gave us SsjG, Blue, Rose, & MUI, with no signs of stopping.

[JewyB]

I'd agree if there wasn't such a visual change to them. If SsjG was just a powered up base form and SsjGSsj (who came up with this name ?) was a powered up Ssj1 with slight visual change instead of a different hair color, I wouldn't consider them "new". Omen is a great example of what I'm talking about, it's new, but not new.

I agree with these 2.

Z gave us Ssj1 (and its variants) and Ssj3. GT gave us Ssj4. Super gave us SsjG, Blue, Rose, & MUI, with no signs of stopping.

I would put it at:

Z: SS1, SS2, SS3.
GT: SS4.
Super: SSG, SSB, SSBE

SS2 is stated to be a separate form in the original series so i'll count it, Rose though is stated by Zamasu to just be SSGSS(which should have been named Super Cyan) but just visually different, while blue is distinctly different from OG SS on account of having god ki.

MUI i consider a technique as opposed to a form, although its so tentative it hurts.

[Matches Malone]

SS2 is stated to be a separate form in the original series so i'll count it, Rose though is stated by Zamasu to just be SSGSS(which should have been named Super Cyan) but just visually different, while blue is distinctly different from OG SS on account of having god ki.

The reason I don't count Ssj2 as being different is because it looks nearly the same as 1. It's a new form in power rather than visual, which is what I like about it.

[Thani]

To be fair, as far as arcs goes, Super isn't really acting different from Z.

• The Freeza Arc (which starts with Raditz showing up since, after all, the Saiyans at that point WERE part of the Freeza Force) gave us SSj1.

• The Androids Arc gave us SSj2 and the many grades of SSj.

• The Buu Arc gave us SSj3.

• BoG gave us SSG.

• RoF gave us SSB. And SSB stayed the default form for the U6 Tournament and the Goku Black Arcs (Rosé is just Blue but for Black).

• ToP gave us finally new forms in SSBE and UI - and if you consider Kale, the Green Super Saiyan that Broly uses.

• However, Broly kept SSB as the main form for it's duration. It didn't introduce anything new - even Broly's green transformation was introduced with Kale in the ToP.

• And Moro, again, haven't introduced anything new as well - Vegeta improved his SSB and Goku mastered UI.

As far as rates goes, it's not that bad, considering that Super does have more Arcs than Z overall. The exception here really is GT, which used SSj4 for all of it's run as it's main form.

[precita]

On the bright side they've run out of hair colors to give to Goku so maybe the forms are done.

He won't get green hair because that's for Broly and Kale. Stuff like Rose is for Goku Black. He has black hair, blonde hair, red hair, blue hair, silver hair. And SSJ3.

There's really not many other hair colors left unless they do rainbow tooty-fruity. And I don't think we'll get entirely new Super Saiyan forms in terms of looks like SSJ3 and SSJ4 because Toriyama said he didn't want to do huge change of designs anymore hence the pallette swaps.

[Peach]

- Super Saiyan God
- Super Saiyan Blue
- Super Saiyan Blue Kaio Ken
- Super Saiyan Blue Evolution
- Autonomous Ultra Instinct
- Perfected Ultra Instinct
- Super Saiyan Rosé
- Super Saiyan Rage
- Wrathful
- Legendary Super Saiyan

...Yes. They kind of have.

[UpFromTheSkies]

It's because ratings go through the roof when there is a new transformation and toys with new transformations sell well. They're just giving the people what they want.

[precita]

It's because ratings go through the roof when there is a new transformation and toys with new transformations sell well. They're just giving the people what they want.

They can do the same without all that though, they sold DBZ merch for years when no new series were being produced.

[UpFromTheSkies]

It's because ratings go through the roof when there is a new transformation and toys with new transformations sell well. They're just giving the people what they want.

They can do the same without all that though, they sold DBZ merch for years when no new series were being produced.

Yeah, but they've realized that new transformations make them even more money, and at the end of the day they're a business.

[JulieYBM]

Gotta sell some merchandise, baby!

I don't mind it, I like how cool the forums are. Blue and Migatte no Goku'i are two of my most favorite forms, to say nothing of Rosé! Furthermore, I like the weaknesses and strength behind them although I wish they'd go further.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If anything it's a huge surprise they didn't go more crazy. They've been much more reserved than I would expect.

Dragon Ball Super didn't come up with Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue in the first place. They were created for two separate Dragon Ball Z movies and they each got one because it was a major selling point.

So really, you had the Universe 6 Saga where Goku and Vegeta still used Super Saiyan Blue. Using Kaio-ken wasn't a new form.

The Future Trunks Saga where Goku and Vegeta still used Super Saiyan Blue.

The Universe Survival Saga where Vegeta got a alternated version of Super Saiyan Blue that was as minor of a change as Super Saiyan Grade 2. Goku got two different levels of Ultra Instinct which was fine as that was first alluded to three years prior.

The Broly movie where Goku and Vegeta still used Super Saiyan Blue.

And now the Galactic Patrol Prisoner Saga where Goku and Vegeta still use Super Saiyan Blue a lot and are still using Super Saiyan Blue Evolution and the two Ultra Instinct forms.

So across five years worth of Dragon Ball Super, for the two main characters you've got a slightly different Super Saiyan Blue and two levels of Ultra Instinct. That's it. That's nothing. There's never been a form that's stayed as relevant for as long as Super Saiyan Blue in this franchise. It's over five years old and it's still used for main fights against main antagonists.

[ZodiacBeast]

Seeing Super Saiyan Blue appear in RoF pissed me off. We just got Super Saiyan GOD in BoG, now there's already something stronger one movie (about six in-series months?) later? Yeah, sure.

I think I wouldn't have minded if SSB appeared for the first time in the Future Trunks saga. Give SSG some time to be used and show what it's capable of. The OG Super Saiyan wasn't immediately replaced with SSJ2, after all. I think this would have worked best if there was more time before the Tournament of Power, such as if the Moro arc and encountering nu-Broly occurred before it.

I say that because it would be jarring to get SSB then turn around and get Ultra Instinct in the next arc if the ToP did indeed follow Goku Black.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[SupremeKai25]

I would introduce SSB in the Future Trunks arc if I had the power to. I imagine that would tie into Super Saiyan Rosé, which is the version of Blue that Goku Black, as a natural-borne God, has. Goku could then copy that power and unlock Blue.

But then again, the Future Trunks arc already gave us Super Saiyan Rage... which is a trash form, of course, but it's still a new form.

[Grimlock]

We just got Super Saiyan GOD in BoG, now there's already something stronger one movie (about six in-series months?) later?

A bit over than a year. Still an extremely short gap when compared to other forms. From Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan 2, it took five years. From Super Saiyan 2 to Super Saiyan 3, seven years. From Super Saiyan 3 to Super Saiyan 4, fifteen years.

[Skar]

I feel a concept becomes less iconic the more often it's repeated in story. Even as a kid, I thought SSJ3 was going too far and would've preferred SSJ2 or "Ascended SSJ" was the last transformation. I've read a lot of fanfiction/comics so my reaction to new transformations in DBS as been the same and mostly indifferent. The only time I was excited for any new form was "Saiyan Beyond God". The idea that absorbing this new type of ki does away with transformations was pretty surprised since almost every DB sequel I've seen at that point had new recolored transformations.

I also liked LSSJ or whatever it's called in DBS: Broly. By the end of the original series, Broly's LSSJ in the movie was maybe between a SSJ1 and SSJ2 so not very legendary. DBS did Broly justice having him surpass all the other Saiyan transformations. I'm not sure if he's still considered the Legendary SSJ or if he's just meant to be mutated Saiyan though but I'm glad he didn't need to cycle through a bunch of new forms. I also liked his Wrathful form but that might count as more of a side transformation since it's just the power of Oozaru in base.

[BWri]

To be fair, as far as arcs goes, Super isn't really acting different from Z.

Spoiler:

• The Freeza Arc (which starts with Raditz showing up since, after all, the Saiyans at that point WERE part of the Freeza Force) gave us SSj1.

• The Androids Arc gave us SSj2 and the many grades of SSj.

• The Buu Arc gave us SSj3.

• BoG gave us SSG.

• RoF gave us SSB. And SSB stayed the default form for the U6 Tournament and the Goku Black Arcs (Rosé is just Blue but for Black).

• ToP gave us finally new forms in SSBE and UI - and if you consider Kale, the Green Super Saiyan that Broly uses.

• However, Broly kept SSB as the main form for it's duration. It didn't introduce anything new - even Broly's green transformation was introduced with Kale in the ToP.

• And Moro, again, haven't introduced anything new as well - Vegeta improved his SSB and Goku mastered UI.

As far as rates goes, it's not that bad, considering that Super does have more Arcs than Z overall. The exception here really is GT, which used SSj4 for all of it's run as it's main form.

I was thinking about this as I made my previous post. If you consider all the power multiplying techniques, states, and forms altogether then there's a consistent unveiling of new in-battle power multipliers in each arc after Kaioken is introduced.

Raditz/Saiyan - Kaioken
Villain - Controlled Oozaru

Namek/Frieza - SSJ
Villains - Monster Zarbon, Frieza's forms
Variant of previous -KK x10, KK x20,

Android/Cell - SSJ2
Villain - Cell's forms
Variant of previous - SSJ Grades 2, 3, and Mastered

Buu - SSJ3, Potara Fusion, Metamoran Fusion, Gohan's "Ultimate" state.
Villain - Buu's forms

I think the main difference is Z forms/multipliers tend to get more mileage and started from a base of having more originality since they didn't have a whole franchise worth of similar transformations come before them like Super. I think Z also did start this trend, but its obviously not made with the specific purpose of selling more toys otherwise SSJ2 would look more overtly different from SSJ1, same with KK. SSJ2, originally known as Gohan's ascended form only became a standard transformation after it played a major role in the story, whereas in Super we usually find out about new forms through leaked toy models way before we see it in the show. I think its happened with every form in DBS so far. It's also been stated that the studio feeds Toriyama-san story ideas, usually in the form of fanservice (SSJB Vegito in the FT arc).

BoG - SSJG, (And originally SBG until it was later retconned)

RoF - SSGSSJ (redubbed as SSJB)
Villain - Golden Frieza

U6 - None
Variant - SSJB + KK

FT/GB - SSJ Ikari
Villains - SSJR (can also be considered a mutated variant of SSJB), God Fusion
Variant - Mastered/Complete Blue, SSJG/SSJB instant swapping

ToP - UI
Antagonists - Kamikaze Fireball, Katopesla, Ganos, Ribrianne Butterfly and Giant, Koito robot, Anilaza, GoD Toppo, Berserk SSJ
Variant - Blue Evolution, UI Mastered

Broly -
Antagonist - Broly's unique Ikari/humanoid Oozaru form/state
Variant - Broly's Legenday SSJ (might be different from Kale's, not sure)

Moro -
Villain - Moro's forms

And forms in Super feel ineffective because for 1, SSJG was temporary and discarded way too quickly. I think this is what started the whole idea of Super having too many forms. If they iterated on SSJG more before moving on then Super may have avoided this reputation

2nd, they tend to skip ahead to forms instead of mastering previous ones like was done in Z. SSJ3 was never mastered before SSJG, and SSJG was seemingly, at least in the movies, never mastered when SSJB showed up. SSJB is the first form in Super that's given the time to be mastered and iterated on. It has: SSJBKK, Master SSJB, SSJB Evolution, SSJB/SSJG swapping. It's more advanced and technical than SSJ1 and its grades were.

3rd, the forms in Super tend to have a lack of buildup or logic behind them. Trunk's Ikari form for instance. As cool as it looks, it is given no explanation and doesn't even exist in the manga. One can only conclude that it was created for the anime to sell new figures, of which there are already quite a few. They really just had to say that he developed some god ki during his training with SSJB Vegeta.

4th, Poor designs. If they aren't relying heavily on previous SSJ designs and just lazily changing the color then they are stacking previous concepts on top of each other. I personally consider Vegeta's SSJBE form in the anime to be the poorest excuse of a design, literally just adding random ideas and effects on top of one another. SSJB + Super Vegeta + darker blue hair + Hella twilight sparkles.

Many of the new forms look bland without the aura around them, unlike the original SSJ forms, but that may be due to the modern DB anime art style. For instance, SSJG looks godlike even without an aura in the Broly movie, but looks flat as cardboard in the anime without one.

5th, lack of layers connecting the forms. SSJG has universally red hair for reasons not understood but then SSJB has blue hair, Berserk is green, Rose has pink, and UI has white. At this point there should be an explanation as to why Saiyan hair color changes like this. Is it because of specific kinds of ki, specific emotions? Unless you explain it then the colors seem arbitrary. SSJR is the closest we got to an explanation and its probably why its the form I tend to like the most.

More than that, the question that needs to be asked with every form is "what connects this form to the last?" There is 0 connection between the designs of SSJG and SSJB even though they are branches of the same transformation. And with that then, why are they so different from one another? It needs an explanation or it comes off as shallow and ill-conceived.

UI as a state of being/technique that changes hair color is also a bit much at this point. But as we find out more about it, this annoys me less. It modifies the body in other weird ways as well as shown in the latest chapter.

Things were much more simple in Z with all the forms having the gold hair connecting them and transforming other aspects of the character. There seemed to be more consistency and logic behind them. Not everything was explained in Z either (SSJ3 eyebrows for instance) but it was easier to follow thanks to that logical consistency since each form built on the last.

6th, Powerups in Z weren't always forms. There's a debate to be had if fusion is a form as it does transform the fusees but in general Z utilized techniques and states that are all still prevalent in Super and didn't really on more and more new forms. Z had KK, Zenkai, Finger Fusion, Potara Fusion, and Ultimate. All of these except for KK could be combined with transformations. These states and techniques did not change hair color unlike UI. UI adds to the form fatigue even though it technically isn't a form, but it certainly feels like one.

7th, continues the tradition of forms only adding power instead of adding other useful benefits to keep them relevant. Either that or being inconsistent with those abilities. At one point SSJG could self-heal and SSJB was the optimal stamina conserving and energy regulating form but those abilities were seemingly dropped. Should have just doubled down on that. So now, to test an opponent's abilities, we have to cycle through 2 series worth of transformations to keep them all relevant. You can see why this gets quickly redundant.

TBF, UI is successfully doing this though it still brings the baggage of forms in that it also provides an arbitrary power boost along with its special dodging abilities. I suppose that's fine as long as they don't add a specific number to that boost. And SSB is still proving to be the go-to form for flexibility but I'd like this to be more emphasized and maybe just make SSJG the healing/defensive form to give it something all its own.

TL:dr - Too many hair colors and too little or simply poor explanations for the existence of the forms in Super make them seem superfluous and cash grabby compared to the originals. Z set the precedent for transformation clutter but Super did not declutter things as promised when RoF was out and instead doubled down on Z's forms (literally everything) while adding an equal amount of its own new forms which were typically hair recolors of Z's existing forms. Also SSJG was discarded too quickly and SSJB introduced too soon and with little to no fanfare adding to the idea that each new form is just waiting to be replaced. It doesn't help that most of these are just power boosts waiting to be replaced by newer shinier power boosts. Forms need more special abilities to keep them relevant.