I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
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Dragon Wukong
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I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
After reading these last few chapters of the Moro saga and rereading the DBS manga as a whole, its dawned on me just how great and imaginative of a writer Toyotaro really is. I get the sense he has a true grasp of how the characters in the series are at their core, and can derive tension off that in a way that feels natural. When comparing his version of Super's arcs to the anime, I feel as though he is able to carry the story in an interesting direction while keeping it more consistent with how the characters and world of Dragon Ball work, while also avoiding dragging things out unnecessarily. I think he's honestly the most capable of carrying the franchise after Toriyama.
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theherodjl
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Is this just a cheeky response thread to a certain other thread on here?
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter 
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LoganForkHands73
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z5F28hLhus
"Darkness rises, and light to meet it."
I'm of a consistent opinion that Toyo isn't incredible by any stretch, but he's not terrible. He's good enough at what he does. I've absolutely loved the last few chapters, though unfortunately I cannot say the same for the arc as a whole. Previous arcs have been a little hit and miss. Beerus was basically a recap, Universe 6 slapped, Future Trunks improved many things from the anime but overreached with some finicky fanboyish weirdness in places, ToP sucked for the most part but made some good changes that I respect.
"Darkness rises, and light to meet it."
I'm of a consistent opinion that Toyo isn't incredible by any stretch, but he's not terrible. He's good enough at what he does. I've absolutely loved the last few chapters, though unfortunately I cannot say the same for the arc as a whole. Previous arcs have been a little hit and miss. Beerus was basically a recap, Universe 6 slapped, Future Trunks improved many things from the anime but overreached with some finicky fanboyish weirdness in places, ToP sucked for the most part but made some good changes that I respect.
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Matches Malone
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
I've been saying for the longest time that he'll be a good successor for Toriyama, which is why I'm so angry about how he wrote Goku in the latest chapter, because I know for a fact he's a better writer than that.
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The Undying
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
"It's true, all of it."
...even if the current arc is indeed the worst one.
Formerly Marlowe89.
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Fionordequester
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
I have to say, I find the Moro arc deeply enjoyable, in large part because of Moro himself. I love his character. He's the kind of villain that's been missing from DBZ for a very long time; Someone who uses their head, and can't just be beaten with raw power. Even Zamasu mainly relied on his invincibility (with Black relying on his Zenkais for more power).
The hero's way of "slowly powering up to play with their opponents" costs the saiyans dearly in their first encounter, and allows him too much energy for them to deal with the next time. He is, then, intelligent enough to hunt for the Dragon Balls himself, rather than rely on ineffectual minions (like Freeza did). At the same time, however, he's smart enough to keep Cranberry alive, despite being an utter sociopath. This turns out to save his life, when Moro is almost defeated by Majin Buu.
Cranberry restores Moro's powers, at which point, he flies into the vacuum of space... Where Goku & Vegeta can't breath. Goku & Vegeta are utterly defeated, after a long and circuitous fight, and they're forced to flee. They can't just level grind, either; They have to learn brand new techniques. Goku mastering Ultra Instinct, and Vegeta learning Forced Fission.
But, Moro is five steps ahead of them, even then. He creates Seven-Three, who acts as essentially an ability stealer AND a senzu bean, all at once. He is insurance, just in case Goku & Vegeta find a way to defeat him... And sure enough, Moro uses him to escape the jaws of defeat. Once again, Moro's forward-thinking saves his life.
He then steals Vegeta's Forced Fission, which makes Fusion and Potara worthless. Then, when Goku still somehow defeats him, he fuses with the planet itself. Now, they can't destroy him without also destroying the galaxy...
And on and on it goes. A villain who still manages to be a credible threat, despite how bloated the Power Levels are. One who always makes you nervous, no matter how close to losing he seems to be. Toriyama was the undisputed master of creating villains like that... And now? It looks like Toyotaro's mastered that same art.
I think Toyotaro showed remarkable creativity and thought. He wrote a villain that was threatening, without having to resort to "I have a higher Power Level than the other guys before me". It made all his fights more interesting than I've seen in a good while. Black was a charismatic villain too, but even he got a little tiresome with his whole "Lol, I just got another Zenkai from nowhere" nonsense. I vastly prefer the Moro approach we're getting right now.
So, that's my spiel. Whaddaya think?
The hero's way of "slowly powering up to play with their opponents" costs the saiyans dearly in their first encounter, and allows him too much energy for them to deal with the next time. He is, then, intelligent enough to hunt for the Dragon Balls himself, rather than rely on ineffectual minions (like Freeza did). At the same time, however, he's smart enough to keep Cranberry alive, despite being an utter sociopath. This turns out to save his life, when Moro is almost defeated by Majin Buu.
Cranberry restores Moro's powers, at which point, he flies into the vacuum of space... Where Goku & Vegeta can't breath. Goku & Vegeta are utterly defeated, after a long and circuitous fight, and they're forced to flee. They can't just level grind, either; They have to learn brand new techniques. Goku mastering Ultra Instinct, and Vegeta learning Forced Fission.
But, Moro is five steps ahead of them, even then. He creates Seven-Three, who acts as essentially an ability stealer AND a senzu bean, all at once. He is insurance, just in case Goku & Vegeta find a way to defeat him... And sure enough, Moro uses him to escape the jaws of defeat. Once again, Moro's forward-thinking saves his life.
He then steals Vegeta's Forced Fission, which makes Fusion and Potara worthless. Then, when Goku still somehow defeats him, he fuses with the planet itself. Now, they can't destroy him without also destroying the galaxy...
And on and on it goes. A villain who still manages to be a credible threat, despite how bloated the Power Levels are. One who always makes you nervous, no matter how close to losing he seems to be. Toriyama was the undisputed master of creating villains like that... And now? It looks like Toyotaro's mastered that same art.
I think Toyotaro showed remarkable creativity and thought. He wrote a villain that was threatening, without having to resort to "I have a higher Power Level than the other guys before me". It made all his fights more interesting than I've seen in a good while. Black was a charismatic villain too, but even he got a little tiresome with his whole "Lol, I just got another Zenkai from nowhere" nonsense. I vastly prefer the Moro approach we're getting right now.
So, that's my spiel. Whaddaya think?
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Finally, people that are objective.
I wrote a long post about this arc yesterday.
I understand that people have different opinions, but i often read opinions without context or good reasons.
Spitting poison for a single page, without reading the full chapter, for me, doesn't make any sense. Yes, we can discuss about it, but criticize and thinking to know everything after just one page is not the best.
Toyotaro will improve, i'm sure of it. Don't forget he gave to us a lot of good stuff (the retun of majin boo, vegeta training/move, UI ecc).
I wrote a long post about this arc yesterday.
I understand that people have different opinions, but i often read opinions without context or good reasons.
Spitting poison for a single page, without reading the full chapter, for me, doesn't make any sense. Yes, we can discuss about it, but criticize and thinking to know everything after just one page is not the best.
Toyotaro will improve, i'm sure of it. Don't forget he gave to us a lot of good stuff (the retun of majin boo, vegeta training/move, UI ecc).
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Jiren The Alpha
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
The tital is the most creative joke i have ever heard.
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Magnificent Ponta
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
I don't think Toyotarou is 'incredible', like I don't think he's 'terrible'. He's generally capable, and has the original creator at his back (for better and worse), and that's more or less it. I think a balanced appraisal of his strengths and weaknesses is called for.
For example, he's strong on understanding the core of what the characters are generally 'about', while still being able to do important new things with them - such as balancing Vegeta's well-established pridefulness and personal fixation on Goku with a trajectory that moves towards a more 'healthy' connectedness with the people and things around him, and where he uses his pride in ways that are different (and more heroic) than they used to be - for instance, compare his insistence that he'll never give up his pride when he says it to Babidi (he does it just for himself) with when he says it to Zamas (he's goading Zamas into fixating on him so Goku gets enough time to heal and possibly pull out the win). Same characteristic, totally different beats. And well-handled. Toyotarou is generally good at keeping these characters true to themselves.
He's also good at playing with the established themes of arcs, bringing them back and turning them over in a way that exposes different facets of the concept - look at, for instance, the various ways ideas of stealing, earning, and giving (and the contrasts between them) are used in the Moro arc, or the attention given to the idea of Black and Zamas's unity in the Future Trunks arc, and the ways that's played with (Zamas as accessory, the brief attempt at turning the pair against each other, the fusion of the two into one, their resistance to splitting and the union of their souls so that they're still one no matter how many times they divide), or the significance of teamwork, and what constitutes 'true strength' in the Tournament of Power arc. The ways in which he plays with these ideas through the storytelling are always interesting, to me at least.
On the other hand, he definitely has weaknesses. His plotting isn't quite as tight as it could be, which leads to his material seeming sometimes fillerish; I don't think the current format of the series helps him much in that regard, as he could fill a smaller page count with the same plot beats and create a more polished product in so doing. But even in more tightly-structured arcs, his contributions do seem contrived to do things that don't necessarily move the overall plot along, but rather just fill it with (enjoyable enough) stuff - the appearance of Vegetto in the Future Trunks arc is an example - it's cool and all, but at a high plot level, it just moves the arc in a loop back to where it was before he appeared. I enjoy the scene, for sure, but there's nothing more to it than that. Not that there always has to be 'something more', but it feels like something of a habit, and perhaps it goes toward my feeling that true 'peaks' to his narratives are rare, though he manages to hold my attention well enough.
Also, I find that his antagonists tend to be written as vessels for bearing themes, rather than as characters, as such. Moro, for instance, is an admirable device for bearing the aforementioned themes of the arc, and for pressing the heroes throughout, but as a character, he's totally straightforward and doesn't have many characteristics, or even quirks. Jiren is the same - he's an unyielding, solitary 'wall' for Goku to try to scramble over, and not a lot more than that. Some of this is also Toriyama's conception (particularly Jiren), and I don't think it's a huge issue given that Dragon Ball doesn't go for much depth of characterisation in its antagonists generally, but I do find the approach I'm seeing in Super a little bit more nakedly 'instrumental' and hence somewhat more limited than original Dragon Ball was, somehow.
I don't think Toyotarou should be immune from fair criticism, and I'm sure that there's more that could be said for both sides of the consideration - these were just 'for instance' (one could talk about his artistic pros and antis as well, for instance, though this topic is about writing). However, I do feel that a number of people made up their mind that Toyotarou was one thing or another some time ago, and the 'conversation' is by this point really just a bunch of talking points that are being fired at topics, rather than a genuine engagement. I think that's a real shame.
For example, he's strong on understanding the core of what the characters are generally 'about', while still being able to do important new things with them - such as balancing Vegeta's well-established pridefulness and personal fixation on Goku with a trajectory that moves towards a more 'healthy' connectedness with the people and things around him, and where he uses his pride in ways that are different (and more heroic) than they used to be - for instance, compare his insistence that he'll never give up his pride when he says it to Babidi (he does it just for himself) with when he says it to Zamas (he's goading Zamas into fixating on him so Goku gets enough time to heal and possibly pull out the win). Same characteristic, totally different beats. And well-handled. Toyotarou is generally good at keeping these characters true to themselves.
He's also good at playing with the established themes of arcs, bringing them back and turning them over in a way that exposes different facets of the concept - look at, for instance, the various ways ideas of stealing, earning, and giving (and the contrasts between them) are used in the Moro arc, or the attention given to the idea of Black and Zamas's unity in the Future Trunks arc, and the ways that's played with (Zamas as accessory, the brief attempt at turning the pair against each other, the fusion of the two into one, their resistance to splitting and the union of their souls so that they're still one no matter how many times they divide), or the significance of teamwork, and what constitutes 'true strength' in the Tournament of Power arc. The ways in which he plays with these ideas through the storytelling are always interesting, to me at least.
On the other hand, he definitely has weaknesses. His plotting isn't quite as tight as it could be, which leads to his material seeming sometimes fillerish; I don't think the current format of the series helps him much in that regard, as he could fill a smaller page count with the same plot beats and create a more polished product in so doing. But even in more tightly-structured arcs, his contributions do seem contrived to do things that don't necessarily move the overall plot along, but rather just fill it with (enjoyable enough) stuff - the appearance of Vegetto in the Future Trunks arc is an example - it's cool and all, but at a high plot level, it just moves the arc in a loop back to where it was before he appeared. I enjoy the scene, for sure, but there's nothing more to it than that. Not that there always has to be 'something more', but it feels like something of a habit, and perhaps it goes toward my feeling that true 'peaks' to his narratives are rare, though he manages to hold my attention well enough.
Also, I find that his antagonists tend to be written as vessels for bearing themes, rather than as characters, as such. Moro, for instance, is an admirable device for bearing the aforementioned themes of the arc, and for pressing the heroes throughout, but as a character, he's totally straightforward and doesn't have many characteristics, or even quirks. Jiren is the same - he's an unyielding, solitary 'wall' for Goku to try to scramble over, and not a lot more than that. Some of this is also Toriyama's conception (particularly Jiren), and I don't think it's a huge issue given that Dragon Ball doesn't go for much depth of characterisation in its antagonists generally, but I do find the approach I'm seeing in Super a little bit more nakedly 'instrumental' and hence somewhat more limited than original Dragon Ball was, somehow.
I don't think Toyotarou should be immune from fair criticism, and I'm sure that there's more that could be said for both sides of the consideration - these were just 'for instance' (one could talk about his artistic pros and antis as well, for instance, though this topic is about writing). However, I do feel that a number of people made up their mind that Toyotarou was one thing or another some time ago, and the 'conversation' is by this point really just a bunch of talking points that are being fired at topics, rather than a genuine engagement. I think that's a real shame.
Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Just want to point out that, even then, Moro's approach was "I have a higher Power Level than the other guys before me" when he finally arrived on Earth. Even Goku pretty much spilled it out in the latest chapter that he was the "strongest guy ever". He didn't fight smart there, he fought like every villain so far and pretty much outmuscled his enemies.Fionordequester wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 1:45 am I think Toyotaro showed remarkable creativity and thought. He wrote a villain that was threatening, without having to resort to "I have a higher Power Level than the other guys before me". It made all his fights more interesting than I've seen in a good while. Black was a charismatic villain too, but even he got a little tiresome with his whole "Lol, I just got another Zenkai from nowhere" nonsense. I vastly prefer the Moro approach we're getting right now.
Sure he have his magic, and sure he uses it with creativity, but at the end of the day Toyo and Tori still chose to use him as a "my kung fu is better than yours" kind of villain until the arrival of true Ultra Instinct.
He was only really pragmatical on Namek. On Earth, he had his moments, but he still tried to outmuscle everyone.
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The Undying
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Jabs aside, I'm with you here. That goes for the positives and most of the negatives. I think however much depth antagonists have, as obstacles to the main protagonists, should depend entirely on how intricate the story's themes are (otherwise it's fluff) but that might be best saved for another discussion.
Toriyama is a master of his craft, and Toyotaro will probably never reach his level as an artist or a writer. That's fine, though; he's still competent enough to understand Dragon Ball's core principles (its subversive gags, characterization, themes, and so on) even if his plot structure comes up short, which is already more than I can say for anyone else involved in the franchise outside of the creator. Super - being a midquel rather than an ambitious sequel - fits that approach.
The GPP arc falters heavily from start to finish, but otherwise, I think he's generally good at accomplishing what these stories set out to achieve.
Formerly Marlowe89.
Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Yeah Toyo is great and the manga is great.
Even though he was winning he still absorbed more then he needed and put a full backup in 7-3 that's clever villainy I don't feel we've seen before.
I don't mind the senzu thing as long as they don't lose because of it, I think spirit fission is coming into play somehow either straight from Geets or Gogeta.
I like his little bonus chapters, you can't say the guy doesn't love dragonball and have a good grasp on continuity and stuff.
People are fucking insane, I haven't seen a single one of these man children be able to just say "I personally don't like it" it has to be that "HE AND IT ARE TERRIBLE" Ignoring the insanely cringe/bad writing and power scaling of their beloved anime version they don't apply the same level of scrutiny to.
Even though he was winning he still absorbed more then he needed and put a full backup in 7-3 that's clever villainy I don't feel we've seen before.
I don't mind the senzu thing as long as they don't lose because of it, I think spirit fission is coming into play somehow either straight from Geets or Gogeta.
I like his little bonus chapters, you can't say the guy doesn't love dragonball and have a good grasp on continuity and stuff.
People are fucking insane, I haven't seen a single one of these man children be able to just say "I personally don't like it" it has to be that "HE AND IT ARE TERRIBLE" Ignoring the insanely cringe/bad writing and power scaling of their beloved anime version they don't apply the same level of scrutiny to.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.
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Fionordequester
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
The people who complain the most also tend to be the most talkative, so it's to be expected. Quite unfortunate, that.TobyS wrote: ↑Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:13 pm People are fucking insane, I haven't seen a single one of these man children be able to just say "I personally don't like it" it has to be that "HE AND IT ARE TERRIBLE" Ignoring the insanely cringe/bad writing and power scaling of their beloved anime version they don't apply the same level of scrutiny to.
Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
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Fionordequester
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Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Absolutely loved this new chapter. The choreography was extremely creative, all the past plot points came together in a logical & creative way (Spirit Fission, Grand Kai/Buu, Merus shattering the crystals, & the villain's body exploding from too much power), Moro's breakdown was horrifying and grotesque, and Goku's oni form was absolutely awesome.
I love it
!!
I love it
!!Kataphrut wrote:It's a bit of a Boy Who Cried Wolf situation to me...Basically, the boy shouldn't have cried wolf when the wolves just wanted to Go See Yamcha. If not, they might have gotten some help when the wolves came back to Make the Donuts.
Chuquita wrote:I liken Gokû Black to "guy can't stand his job, so instead of quitting and finding a job he likes, he instead sets fire not only to his workplace so he doesn't have to work there, but tries setting fire to every store in the franchise of that company".
Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
I also enjoyed this chapter. There were a lot of callbacks but I've come to accept that in modern DB since it's a revival. I wouldn't say it's groundbreaking or one of my favorite arcs but I had fun reading it and looking forward to what came next.
Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Dragon Wukong wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:08 pm After reading these last few chapters of the Moro saga and rereading the DBS manga as a whole, its dawned on me just how great and imaginative of a writer Toyotaro really is. I get the sense he has a true grasp of how the characters in the series are at their core, and can derive tension off that in a way that feels natural. When comparing his version of Super's arcs to the anime, I feel as though he is able to carry the story in an interesting direction while keeping it more consistent with how the characters and world of Dragon Ball work, while also avoiding dragging things out unnecessarily. I think he's honestly the most capable of carrying the franchise after Toriyama.
quick answer no ... the last chapter does not save moro arc from being one of the worst of super but it is still better than FNF at least and only because it brings more new things regarding divine ki, buu and the kaioshin race
anyway I don't think he is bad or incredible ... it has its achievements and its failures as someone who is starting but has improved if we consider ... that in BOfG the only dialogues were "grunts" of fighting between goku and beerus now at less seems to be more able to engage with the scene
Re: I think its time to admit that Toyotaro is a incredible writer.
Copying Toriyama is the worst thing that can happen to the future of Dragon Ball.