Why do some have a dislike of the climax of the Zamasu/Black arc?

[SupremeKai25]

Fans don't like when Dragon Ball is predictable and also don't like when it's unpredictable, so you can't win.

THIS.

For years people have bitched about Dragon Ball being too safe since they can always fix things with the Dragons Balls. Here comes the Zamasu arc and finally gives us the opposite and what do people do? Bitch again.

They simply can't win indeed.

It really feels like that.

People have always complained that Dragon Ball is the only show where Death literally doesn't matter, since it's a show named after plot hax that can bring everyone back.

So we FINALLY, AFTER 30 YEARS, get an arc with a very dark ending, where the dead people CAN'T come back to life... and people still complain.

At this point some people just don't know what they want.

[Fionordequester]

Not just the fact that it happens, but the fact that Whis goes to the effort of providing it, which utterly goes against Whis's neutral character and his desire to see the timelines keep their integrity as per the divine laws (i.e. by not unnecessarily creating more). Why does Whis even give a shit about Trunks?

Because Trunks was wronged by one of their own; A divine being that went rogue. So it's only right another divine being give recompense.

[precita]

It's kinda sad future Yajirobe survived the attack of the Androids only to get killed off by Zamasu about a decade later.

[GodVegetto91]

SSJ Blue Goku outperformed SSB Vegeta (who is stronger than Goku at this point thanks to the hyperbolic time chamber training for 6 months, which Goku didn’t have!) PLUS Trunks. Vegeta and Trunks teaming up in a beam struggle together against Merged Zamasu.

Blue Goku (alone!) outperformed them and overpowered Merged Zamasu, while the duo could not. (Even though Vegeta ALONE is already stronger than Goku!)

Goku Blue with regular Kaioken outperformed even SSJ Blue VEGITO! Against Merged Zamasu!

Future Trunks with a Spirit Sword made up of the energy from only 12 malnourished individuals was able to do against Merged Zamasu what SSJ Blue VEGITO! Could not!

At one point in their fight, Merged Zamasu straight up OVERPOWERED Blue Vegito... Even though he should literally be thousands of times weaker than him based on certain powerscale facts which I’m not going to get into right now.

This whole climax was an absolute clusterfuck of the most humongous proportions. It’s singlehandedly the worst written and most inconsistent writing and powerscaling EVER produced by Dragon Ball (next to perhaps only the ToP Arc powerscaling...!)

The climax of these 2 arcs are written on a level that even 5 year olds would consider bad writing and nonsensical!

You don’t have Goku Blue and Future Trunks OUTPERFORMING Vegito Blue in battle..!

You just.. Don’t do that if you have any decency or rationality inside you...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I just love the anime's greater emotional beats and overall character writing. I LOVE the tense moments where Goku and Trunks are pushed to the brink and breaking their limits, showing that against all odds, these 2 have the greatest wills and ability to push themselves out of everyone. And you gotta love how Merged Zamasu is breaking down as a character, both figuratively AND literally.

Humans are NOT rational creatures, hence why an emotionally resonant piece of fiction can be so effective. We think we're rational, and usually we are, but our judgment can be easily turned against us because our reasoning and responses are better tuned for surviving in the wild than they are dealing with modern living and fiction.

Because of this, and because I listen to my heart first, I'll always take incredible voice talent and animation playing up the drama and stakes over a more rationally coherent story.

[The Undying]

If the narrative can't be coherent or consistent and challenges suspension of disbelief, that undercuts any tension or emotionally compelling "moments" the show might have intended. Power scaling, rather than being some divorced concept, was actually one of Toriyama's best tools for establishing tension.

More power to those who are moved by artificial drama, but it doesn't do anything for me.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

If the narrative can't be coherent or consistent and challenges suspension of disbelief, that undercuts any tension or emotionally compelling "moments" the show might have intended. Power scaling, rather than being some divorced concept, was actually one of Toriyama's best tools for establishing tension.

More power to those who are moved by artificial drama, but it doesn't do anything for me.

But if the consistency issues are overblown and not nearly as suspension-breaking as some make out, than the more human experience would surely win out, yes?

There may be limits to the kind of plot/setting coherency one can take, but the inverse is also true regarding real emotion and human resonance. Ultimately, I value something that'll move me more emotionally and stretches disbelief slightly vs. something that feels mechanical and by the numbers and only makes slightly more sense.

That's how I've felt about the DBS manga as a whole. It just lacks..... lacks the heart and soul that the anime has.

[The Undying]

But if the consistency issues are overblown and not nearly as suspension-breaking as some make out, than the more human experience would surely win out, yes?

I don't think they're overblown by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I think the "human experience" is as reductive as falling for every little attempt to tug at the heart strings when it falls flat for a significant portion of the audience. Personally, I think the manga recognizes Toriyama's tone and provides a better balance than the anime, but I'm also not about to climb on some soapbox about humanity or whatever if people disagree with me.

If it resonated with you, that's fine. I don't think it's fair to imply that those who feel otherwise aren't looking for emotionally resonant material, though. That's just the subjectivity of art and emotional sensibilities. From my perspective, I find the manga to be more careful and reserved about its placement of poignant scenes, so I think they're more impactful as a result.

It's not a black and white thing.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ultimately, I think that the anime had everything the manga had and so much more because of what the medium affords.

It has the same general levels of coherency, but the impact of the voice acting and character depth just hits so much harder in comparison to the stale and lifelessness of the manga for me. I feel invested in it, whereas I don't with Toyotaro's work.

And that's why I think the anime hit it home but the manga didn't. They turned a pretty polarizing general outline and expanded it to have actual character depth and emotional resonance via the use of much more vibrant and expressive animation and vocal work.

[SupremeKai25]

Ultimately, I think that the anime had everything the manga had and so much more because of what the medium affords.

It has the same general levels of coherency, but the impact of the voice acting and character depth just hits so much harder in comparison to the stale and lifelessness of the manga for me. I feel invested in it, whereas I don't with Toyotaro's work.

And that's why I think the anime hit it home but the manga didn't. They turned a pretty polarizing general outline and expanded it to have actual character depth and emotional resonance via the use of much more vibrant and expressive animation and vocal work.

Agreed. Zamasu's VA carried that arc. He made the final two episodes of the arc much more enjoyable and emotional.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Ultimately, I think that the anime had everything the manga had and so much more because of what the medium affords.

It has the same general levels of coherency, but the impact of the voice acting and character depth just hits so much harder in comparison to the stale and lifelessness of the manga for me. I feel invested in it, whereas I don't with Toyotaro's work.

And that's why I think the anime hit it home but the manga didn't. They turned a pretty polarizing general outline and expanded it to have actual character depth and emotional resonance via the use of much more vibrant and expressive animation and vocal work.

Agreed. Zamasu's VA carried that arc. He made the final two episodes of the arc much more enjoyable and emotional.

I was talking more about Future Trunks and Future Mai, but him too

[SupremeKai25]

Ultimately, I think that the anime had everything the manga had and so much more because of what the medium affords.

It has the same general levels of coherency, but the impact of the voice acting and character depth just hits so much harder in comparison to the stale and lifelessness of the manga for me. I feel invested in it, whereas I don't with Toyotaro's work.

And that's why I think the anime hit it home but the manga didn't. They turned a pretty polarizing general outline and expanded it to have actual character depth and emotional resonance via the use of much more vibrant and expressive animation and vocal work.

Agreed. Zamasu's VA carried that arc. He made the final two episodes of the arc much more enjoyable and emotional.

I was talking more about Future Trunks and Future Mai, but him too

Really? I mean, I guess. I don't really remember any particularly amazing performance from them. I suppose Mei's VA did a great job when she was shooting at the sky in the last episode. Then again it's usually the antagonist who gives the best performance and is given the most badass lines.

[DBPirate]

I don't have an issue with the end of the arc, at least the anime version. I thought it was great that there was a villain too strong for any of the characters to defeat and so they had to rely on Zeno. As a bonus, we got to finally see why every one of the Gods was so scared of Zeno as opposed to just hearing about it. I thought that the moment Trunks had with Gohan when he was talking about how he failed was touching.

The unfusing thing was also not a problem for me. They had built up the fact that Vegito was supposed to be permanent to a major degree in the Buu saga only for them to anticlimactically unfuse because of Buu's energy or something. The explanation presented in this arc was more of a better late than never situation in my view.

The only quibble I have is with the whole Spirit Sword thing. If it had been explained after the fact by Gowasu or Shin or something, it wouldn't have been a problem but it comes out of nowhere. I assume he's just collecting everyone's energy out of desperation, but I still would have liked to see it confirmed. I liked that he was the person to deal the last physical blow to Zamasu, at least.

[Gligarman]

I ain't gonna act like I wasn't on the edge of my seat every week waiting to see what happens. But my personal problem with the Zamazu/Black arc was that I simply felt there were a lot of missed opportunities. I will always stand by the belief that the arc would have been much more interesting if Zamasu took over Goten's body rather than Goku. Besides the fact that Black and Goten both wore a red sash I was expecting this revelation because I thought Goten was oddly absent when Future Trunks was in the present. Also I have mixed thoughts about them destroying the universe at the end and replacing it. I don't know, not a terrible arc or anything and admittedly I like the manga version better, but I still feel like it could have been better.

As for people that rant and scream about it as if it ruined their lives, meh. Dragon Ball is like Star Wars. Nobody loves or hates it more than its fans.

[precita]

I ain't gonna act like I wasn't on the edge of my seat every week waiting to see what happens. But my personal problem with the Zamazu/Black arc was that I simply felt there were a lot of missed opportunities. I will always stand by the belief that the arc would have been much more interesting if Zamasu took over Goten's body rather than Goku. Besides the fact that Black and Goten both wore a red sash I was expecting this revelation because I thought Goten was oddly absent when Future Trunks was in the present. Also I have mixed thoughts about them destroying the universe at the end and replacing it. I don't know, not a terrible arc or anything and admittedly I like the manga version better, but I still feel like it could have been better.

As for people that rant and scream about it as if it ruined their lives, meh. Dragon Ball is like Star Wars. Nobody loves or hates it more than its fans.

Goten wouldn't exist in any other timeline as Goku was dead. Unless you meant Black taking over kid Goten's body...which would be...weird. To see an evil tiny Goten being treated like a threat.

[Gligarman]

I ain't gonna act like I wasn't on the edge of my seat every week waiting to see what happens. But my personal problem with the Zamazu/Black arc was that I simply felt there were a lot of missed opportunities. I will always stand by the belief that the arc would have been much more interesting if Zamasu took over Goten's body rather than Goku. Besides the fact that Black and Goten both wore a red sash I was expecting this revelation because I thought Goten was oddly absent when Future Trunks was in the present. Also I have mixed thoughts about them destroying the universe at the end and replacing it. I don't know, not a terrible arc or anything and admittedly I like the manga version better, but I still feel like it could have been better.

As for people that rant and scream about it as if it ruined their lives, meh. Dragon Ball is like Star Wars. Nobody loves or hates it more than its fans.

Goten wouldn't exist in any other timeline as Goku was dead. Unless you meant Black taking over kid Goten's body...which would be...weird. To see an evil tiny Goten being treated like a threat.

Nah, I figured he'd take over his child body and grow up training it since Saiyan/Human hybrids have a natural power boost.

[Chuquita]

I wanted Goku Black to have been an actual evil Goku--be it a Goku who had come out of a life-altering tumultuous experience, or maybe something simpler along the lines of a Goku who was being mind-controlled/brain-washed by the true villain of the arc. Learning that Goku Black was just Zamasu doing the Captain Ginyu thing really let the air out of the sails that was how much fun I had at the initial portion of the arc coming up with theories for how Goku Black came to be. I think what I was looking for and hoping for was more built on the expectations I had from other anime franchises both past and present; I wasn't really thinking in terms of what those in charge of Dragon Ball would allow to happen (or what I'm now under the impression they would and would not allow). The only thing I liked about how Zamasu played Goku is how entertainingly he hammed it up in rosé form at times. He was over-dramatic in a way an actual evil Goku wouldn't have been.

While I'm ok with sad endings in stories in general, I think the two-future-Trunkses and two-future-Mais goes too far into absurdity to satisfy many viewers. I like idea that was floated around (I forget by who) about instead of the doppelganger ending to bring Future Trunks along to the TOP and have the wish granted at the end be the one to restore his timeline (without Zamasu of course) so he and Mai can be reunited with their own timeline's loved ones. You could even still word the wish in a way where it brings back the other erased universes too.

[Jord]

Because the villain got beaten by Goku pressing a button and calling a guy that simple erases the bad guy from the story. No climactic end battle. Let's just call someone to end this story. Literally.
Has to be the worst deus ex machina in the series. Even the Super Android 17 saga had a better ending.

Plus, the reminders of the pedophilic relationship between Mai and current Trunks do not make the ending any better.

[SupremeKai25]

You know, when you think about it there was no way Trunks could get a happy ending either way.

Let's assume that Zamasu never survived after getting his body disintegrated, then what? I mean, there were like 30 civilians left in the entire Earth, all cities were completely destroyed, all Dragon Balls were gone, and to make matters even worse for these mortals Black had already wiped out countless civilizations across the cosmos, so they couldn't even get extraterrestrial help. Oh, and of course all Gods were gone too.

Like, it was a lose-lose situation no matter what happened. How would they repopulate the planet? How would they rebuild all the destroyed continents? As I said, there were literally 30 civlians left planet-wide. The survivors of the Human species could fit into one decrepit, ruined subway.

Because the villain got beaten by Goku pressing a button and calling a guy that simple erases the bad guy from the story. No climactic end battle. Let's just call someone to end this story. Literally.
Has to be the worst deus ex machina in the series. Even the Super Android 17 saga had a better ending.

There was a final climatic battle, we saw it when Trunks sliced Zamasu in two.

Goku pressing the buttom was a last resort and wasn't a deus ex machina. It had a purpose to set up Zeno and his true power and let us know he really was the God of the universe. And led into the next arc. You're acting like the whole button press just happened from the start.

Honestly I never understood why some people complained about the Button. Like, it was hammered down hard throughout the arc that Zamasu is an immortal villain, which makes him special, and the Zeno Button was introduced like 10 episodes earlier, and that button conveniently summons Zeno to the battlefield. I think the connection was pretty obvious. Why would they introduce that Button if they're just going to have Trunks destroy Zamasu with a sword slash?

[precita]

Because the villain got beaten by Goku pressing a button and calling a guy that simple erases the bad guy from the story. No climactic end battle. Let's just call someone to end this story. Literally.
Has to be the worst deus ex machina in the series. Even the Super Android 17 saga had a better ending.

There was a final climatic battle, we saw it when Trunks sliced Zamasu in two.

Goku pressing the buttom was a last resort and wasn't a deus ex machina. It had a purpose to set up Zeno and his true power and let us know he really was the God of the universe. And led into the next arc. You're acting like the whole button press just happened from the start.