Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kinokima » Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:34 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:19 pm
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:12 pmIf we are talking Super I think you can argue the movies and both anime & manga. Just the anime & manga told parallel versions of the same story.
Can we? Are we going to argue based on... what? Who said? Where are the evidences?
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:12 pmI admit the word “canon” has kind of lost some of its original meaning it’s just people say the manga isn’t canon to discredit it.
"Kind of"? It never even had a meaning without proper official confirmation.
I mean the original canon was the original Dragon Ball manga.
So yes it did have meaning.

The old movies for example were considered to be part of a separate continuity. That is why the new Gogeta & Broly can be added to the new movies because they don’t exist in the original continuity.

Now there are two official parallel canons the anime & manga and the new movie continuity can work with both versions. I am sure this new movie won’t do anything to contradict the manga. The manga right now for better or worse is the face of the franchise because the anime is not running.

Video Games & Heroes are side things and are not part of the main continuity.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:38 pm

Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:34 pmI mean the original canon was the original Dragon Ball manga.
So yes it did have meaning.
No, canon is not concerned about the original material. Canon concerns the acknowledgement (from an out-universe perspective) of other materials and overall clarification (also in regards to other materials).
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:34 pmThe old movies for example were considered to be part of a separate continuity. That is why the new Gogeta & Broly can be added to the new movies because they don’t exist in the original continuity.
Yes, but the movies taking place in another dimension barely has anything to do with canonicity. We are talking about two Vegetas here, one that learned how to fuse in order to defeat Janemba, and the other that learned how to fuse in order to defeat Broly.

However, that does not mean that the Gogeta from Movie 12 can't, like, appear in the same dimension where the Gogeta that fought Broly lies and even interacts with each other. In the face of movies taking place in another dimension and the possibility of those characters "crossing over" realities, canon virtually loses its meaning altogether.

Once a scenario like the above happens, it won't be like as if the "main continuity" canonized the reality movie Gogeta came from or the character itself. Yet, these characters were still able to communicate with each other. So I ask, what good is a canon in a situation like this? What good is canon in franchises that feature this concept?
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:34 pmNow there are two official parallel canons the anime & manga and the new movie continuity can work with both versions. I am sure this new movie won’t do anything to contradict the manga.
"Canonicity" and "continuity" are not synonymous, and contrary to popular belief: they can't be used interchangeable. I already provided an explanation just above of that difference. It is possible for a work to be canonical, yet not taking place in a certain continuity.

Yes, there are three continuities: the movies, the anime and the manga. But you are gravely mistaken if you think all these three versions can coexist peacefully and that they all happened somehow/in-universe. No, there can be only one version. That's where canonicity enters, it would clarify to us which of these three continuities is the one we should be considering. The lack of canon allows people to pick one of these continuities to consider and no one is wrong by their choices, because officially, there's nothing there to say what's right and what's wrong.
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:34 pmVideo Games & Heroes are side things and are not part of the main continuity.
I could list you a number of franchises whose "main continuity" is, for example, a TV series but consider another material completely different (like a videogame, a movie, a comic book, etc) as part of its continuity.

You'd probably say "whatever, this is Dragon Ball", but what I said kind of describes Dragon Ball. Here's Akira Toriyama himself saying Dragon Ball Online takes place after the manga:

Image

Translation:

Shocking, isn't? And we know Toriyama was involved with Dragon Ball Online during its production (for five years). That is, if an author's involvement alone is some sort of "law" that will determine whether or not that material is part of a continuity. If it is, then in this case, why aren't there more people mentioning Dragon Ball Online? And why do these same people consider the movies retellings instead of the movies which came from the author himself?
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by precita » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:38 pm

There are 3 current canons:

- Movie (Super): Which is Movies 14, 15, 16, and soon 17. Beerus, Return of F, Broly, and now this Superhero one

- Anime (Super): The first two movies got an adaption with some slight changes here and there but are mostly the same story, and if the anime ever comes back I doubt it'll adapt Broly and Superhero into episodes like they did before, since everyone hated the movie adaption eps. Nobody wants to see the same story with worse animation and more stretched out.

- Anime (manga): The manga already changed the Zamasu arc and especially the Tournament of Power from the anime, so even back then you could say the manga became its own thing. But now especially with two new arcs the anime never covered, it's even more obvious.


Meanwhile all 3 of these seem to be a continuation from the old DBZ anime, even though some things like the depictions of Hell are different. You can also arguably say the anime and movies aren't in the same continuity, or a mix of both, but that's going too hardcore into things.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kinokima » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pm

Grimlock when the two Gogeta’s and Broly end up interacting with one other outside videos games than let’s have another discussion about it but for now what can happen and what has happened are two differing things.

As for Dragon Ball Online I am not familiar enough to decide one way or another.

As for continuity and canon not being the same thing I am saying both the anime and manga are official continuations of Toriyama’s original manga. Technically they are alternate versions of each other (at least up to the TOP) so if you want to argue there is not one official canon to follow then that I agree with you.

But I don’t agree that there is no difference between the manga and Heroes for example.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:07 pm

Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pm Grimlock when the two Gogeta’s and Broly end up interacting with one other outside videos games than let’s have another discussion about it but for now what can happen and what has happened are two differing things.
But it has happened. Maybe not in the "main continuity", but the mere fact that that concept has been added into the franchise (by Akira Toriyama himself) and is being explored in an official capacity (through Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes), already validates many of the arguments I'm telling you.

You want to be that strict and will only consider it once it happens in the regular TV/manga series? Honestly, a matter of time now. The reason I'll tell you below.
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pmAs for Dragon Ball Online I am not familiar enough to decide one way or another.
Not familiar with a Toriyama work? Curious. It is expected that a person knows well the franchise before going to the Internet yelling "thats cannon, thats not cannon!" to everyone. Not saying you specifically are one of those people, but you know what I mean.

Don't mean to be rude, but a franchise doesn't actually need someone from the "fandom" to be familiar enough to decide if a work is in continuity or not. You see, this is the thing that I don't understand, people think that their opinion are facts (and because of that, I'm always asking for a source, after all, if they think their opinion is a fact, then they must have a way to provide some sort of back up to their claims, right?). If I'm misunderstanding you here, I apologize.
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pmBut I don’t agree that there is no difference between the manga and Heroes for example.
Then let me tell you something (from the text above): you think Dragon Ball will suddenly stop once Akira Toriyama retires or when he passes away? If so, then oh boy... You're in for a long ride. And those who think that only "Toriyama works count" will have a headache of a lifetime.

You'd better start agreeing that there's no difference (at least until they feel the need to establish a canon in Dragon Ball), or you'll be one of those people scratching their heads for eternity once we get to that point. Try to imagine Toei (and whoever might be the manga artist) coming up with new stories, maybe even outright telling that their material does follow Toriyama's works. Will fans shout at them back saying "no, only what Toriyama did is valid!11!1!"?. Be ready for that.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kinokima » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:46 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:07 pm
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pm Grimlock when the two Gogeta’s and Broly end up interacting with one other outside videos games than let’s have another discussion about it but for now what can happen and what has happened are two differing things.
But it has happened. Maybe not in the "main continuity", but the mere fact that that concept has been added into the franchise (by Akira Toriyama himself) and is being explored in an official capacity (through Dragon Ball Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Heroes), already validates many of the arguments I'm telling you.

You want to be that strict and will only consider it once it happens in the regular TV/manga series? Honestly, a matter of time now. The reason I'll tell you below.
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pmAs for Dragon Ball Online I am not familiar enough to decide one way or another.
Not familiar with a Toriyama work? Curious. It is expected that a person knows well the franchise before going to the Internet yelling "thats cannon, thats not cannon!" to everyone. Not saying you specifically are one of those people, but you know what I mean.

Don't mean to be rude, but a franchise doesn't actually need someone from the "fandom" to be familiar enough to decide if a work is in continuity or not. You see, this is the thing that I don't understand, people think that their opinion are facts (and because of that, I'm always asking for a source, after all, if they think their opinion is a fact, then they must have a way to provide some sort of back up to their claims, right?). If I'm misunderstanding you here, I apologize.
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:56 pmBut I don’t agree that there is no difference between the manga and Heroes for example.
Then let me tell you something (from the text above): you think Dragon Ball will suddenly stop once Akira Toriyama retires or when he passes away? If so, then oh boy... You're in for a long ride. And those who think that only "Toriyama works count" will have a headache of a lifetime.

You'd better start agreeing that there's no difference (at least until they feel the need to establish a canon in Dragon Ball), or you'll be one of those people scratching their heads for eternity once we get to that point. Try to imagine Toei (and whoever might be the manga artist) coming up with new stories, maybe even outright telling that their material does follow Toriyama's works. Will fans shout at them back saying "no, only what Toriyama did is valid!11!1!"?. Be ready for that.


I am familiar with the Dragon Ball Online I am just not familiar with the inner workings of it to make an argument over whether it would be considered canon or not. When I am not as knowledgeable about something then I don’t debate about it because that would be pretty stupid of me.


You are making me out to be some unrelenting hard core purist because I said Heroes or the Video Games aren’t canon to the main Dragon Ball continuity. And the funny thing is I have actually never seen anyone argue that they are. They are side stories/games that have nothing to do with the main continuity of Dragon Ball unlike both the Super anime & manga. I’ve seen arguments for and against GT but that was the official continuation of the the Dragon Ball manga at the time. Video Games & Heroes most certainly never had that status. Heroes is first and foremost a card game that has a manga and now anime adaption.

And I never said Dragon Ball would not continue without Toriyama. But Pointing out Toriyama’s involvement in the Granolah arc was to show you can’t just discount the manga. The manga is a joint creative effort between Toyo, Toriyama and Uchida. It’s right now the main continuation of the original manga. But when both the anime and manga were running both were the official continuations.

And no the two Gogeta’s being in Heroes or Xenoverse does not invalidate anything I said. Video Games and Heroes can get away with things like that because they don’t follow the rules of the original continuity.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Skar » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:19 am

Grimlock wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:38 pmHere's Akira Toriyama himself saying Dragon Ball Online takes place after the manga:
That was interesting! I knew he had some involvement in Online but I don't think I've seen that quote before. If it means anything, I think his contribution to Online is what he still envisions happening after the manga and one of the reasons he set modern DB before the ending. Has anything in DBS contradicted Online?

I think it was only the remnants of Freeza's army thinking that Satan was the one who defeated Freeza while his army in RoF was aware a SSJ was responsible. It's a relatively minor detail so it could be explained everyone in the army who knew about Goku was killed by the end of DBS and the remnants of those remnants assumed Satan defeated Freeza. He had thousand soldiers killed in RoF so he probably doesn't have many left anyway.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Grimlock » Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:28 pm

Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:46 pmYou are making me out to be some unrelenting hard core purist because I said Heroes or the Video Games aren’t canon to the main Dragon Ball continuity. And the funny thing is I have actually never seen anyone argue that they are.
That's because Xenoverse and Heroes weren't created to be a sequel to a series, but Dragon Ball Online was. The latter is in continuity of the manga as its sequel and that's indisputable.
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:46 pmAnd no the two Gogeta’s being in Heroes or Xenoverse does not invalidate anything I said. Video Games and Heroes can get away with things like that because they don’t follow the rules of the original continuity.
What rules? Has the "original continuity" outright established that characters from other dimension can't "cross over" realities? If so, I must ask for a source.

By the way, I'm not saying Xenoverse and Heroes are connected to the series, I'm saying what they are doing is also possible to happen in the series. It's not because they are games and so it can only happen there. No, it can also happen in the series too. Goku Black opened a rift in space that can serve for such purpose (in the anime), and when Gogeta and Broly go to that realm in the movie, that could also serve to introduce this concept in-universe. The tools are already there, it only takes someone willing to take risks to do it.
Skar wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:19 amHas anything in DBS contradicted Online?
Yes, but nothing important that can't be overlooked. With a few tweaks and rewrite, we could easily include the events of Movie 15. In the grand scheme of things, nothing really is impacted and it proceeds as Dragon Ball Online establishes it. In the grand scheme of things, nothing is really impacted and it proceeds as the game establishes it.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Skar » Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:35 am

Grimlock wrote: Sun Jul 25, 2021 12:28 pmYes, but nothing important that can't be overlooked. With a few tweaks and rewrite, we could easily include the events of Movie 15. In the grand scheme of things, nothing really is impacted and it proceeds as Dragon Ball Online establishes it. In the grand scheme of things, nothing is really impacted and it proceeds as the game establishes it.
What tweaks and rewrites did you mean? Minor details that were likely unintentionally overlooked are no big deal. It's a big franchise so difficult for everyone to remember every detail. As long as Toriyama keeps the general idea that these are the events happening after the manga then they could still work.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Grimlock » Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:33 pm

The original information says:
Because they had not been present at the time of Freeza and his father’s death, the guard troops knew nothing of the existence of Son Goku, Trunks or the others. So, after they investigated the Earth, the soldiers assumed that the "Earth’s Strongest Man,” Mister Satan, had been the one who killed Freeza.
We could rewrite that to be:
Because they had not been present at the time of Freeza's resurrection and his eventual death, the guard troops knew nothing of the existence of Son Goku, Vegeta or the others. So, after they investigated the Earth, the soldiers assumed that the "Earth’s Strongest Man”, Mister Satan, had been the one who killed Freeza.
In the scenario above, I assume Freeza will once again die eventually.

If you're not satisfied with that, it could be:
Learning that their leader was defeated many times by the hands of two Saiyans, the guard troops began to plan their invasion. After some investigation, they learn that the Saiyans, the ones responsible for Freeza's defeat, are on Earth. However, knowing they’d be unable to handle anyone strong enough to defeat Freeza, they decided to leave Earth alone so long as the two Saiyans were around.

After another investigation, they learned that the two Saiyans have seemingly disappeared, so they proceed with their invasion of Earth. The Earth’s Royal Army attempted to counterattack, but all fail.
In the scenario above, I changed the date from AGE 820 originally to some point before AGE 801.

Or, I could change the date Goku and Vegeta leave Earth from AGE 801 to AGE 815. Gohan's book as well as Goten and Trunks' school also change dates to match this new one.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Skar » Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:11 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:33 pmIn the scenario above, I changed the date from AGE 820 originally to some point before AGE 801.

Or, I could change the date Goku and Vegeta leave Earth from AGE 801 to AGE 815. Gohan's book as well as Goten and Trunks' school also change dates to match this new one.
It might be necessary to rewrite that part since we don't know what happens to Freeza by the end of DBS. Before getting a chance to defeat Freeza, some of his soldiers get killed first so it could be explained that all the ones who know about Goku die before DBO.

Random question but how much of his army is left in DBS? I recall in Broly it was said that the Saiyans made up around half his army. We know their population is only a few thousand so his entire army might have less than 10,000 soldiers at the time. After Cold and Freeza were killed, most of his army disbanded or were killed so maybe only a few thousand left by RoF. Another thousand die in RoF so maybe a few hundred left at most?

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:59 pm

Skar wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 12:11 pmIt might be necessary to rewrite that part since we don't know what happens to Freeza by the end of DBS. Before getting a chance to defeat Freeza, some of his soldiers get killed first so it could be explained that all the ones who know about Goku die before DBO.
Which is why I left it vague/ambiguous. The defeats mentioned in there is generally by Goku in Freeza saga and by Goku and Vegeta in Movie 15 (and it may or may not consider by Trunks in Cell saga too). Also in that scenario, Freeza may or may not be dead, since "defeat" doesn't necessarily mean being dead, and we don't know what happens to him in Dragon Ball Super, as you already mentioned.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by precita » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:30 pm

Yeah it's very unlikely we'll see either of Goku/Vegeta's new forms in the upcoming movie, because most people who follow the anime will have no idea where they came from. So either Goku/Vegeta aren't going to do much fighting in the new movie, or at least not go above Blue, or else they'll just ignore it.

So either way the movie is very unlikely to acknowledge any events of the last two manga arcs.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by The Golden God » Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:20 am

Toriyama already wrote the script the manga is following. Toyotaro is just adapting a story already written by Toriyama.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Aug 06, 2021 11:22 pm

I think anime movies tend to take a broad-strokes approach to canon anyway because they're meant to appeal to a broader cinema-going audience. They're aimed at the more casual fans who remember the original series and maybe the earlier movies, but aren't up to date with all the details from the new TV series and manga. Luckily that description applies to Toriyama himself, so he's a natural fit to be writing them.

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