Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by precita » Sat Nov 21, 2020 12:53 am

So we've already technically seen this since the manga version of the Zamasu/Goku Black arc and Tournament of Power were vastly different from the anime, even if the overall story and the climax's were basically the same.

Much like western superhero comics are different than the cartoons or live-action movies, should the Super manga and anime do completely different stories entirely? We have no idea if the Super anime will ever return, but assumingly the next movie won't be the Moro arc but a new story anyway so already we're likely going to get something different. And if the Super manga continues after Moro it's going to have to come up with yet another new story, something the anime still wouldn't have caught up on.

At this point I feel like the manga and anime might as well do their own things.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by EGonzo » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:31 am

I hope they do. Goku mastering UI the very next arc after it's introduced doesn't sit well with me at all. The form was set up as the endgame for Goku, and him achieving it after six months off-screen and the oh-so-sad sacrifice of some random dude we barely knew just cheapens it in my opinion. it doesn't help that the latest chapter had him use it like a regular Super Saiyan form, for a power boost and nothing else

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am

I don't think so because ultimately the anime and manga tell the same story. Example: The Future Trunks arc. Sure, the protagonists might travel through time only twice instead of thrice, and there might be slight differences in the abilities that Goku Black/Zamasu have, but ultimately it tells the same exact story about a misguided Supreme Kai who stole Goku's body and rampaged through the multiverse, and was stopped only by Zeno himself. I don't think even Toyotaro/Toriyama/Toei see the anime and manga as literally two different continuities.

I believe Toei will adapt the Moro arc their own way, hopefully expanding on it and on Moro's motivations, while keeping the major storyline, and I hope Toriyama will help them with dialogue, plot points, etc. He already did that in the past, he is clearly a man who wants the anime show of Dragon Ball to be as good as it can be.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:34 am

If Toriyama or the franchise wanted this to happen, it would already have been the case.
Toriyama still oversees everything at the moment and his basic script is always used in all media (manga, movie and anime).
When he has retired, maybe the stories could start do diverge even more, but still share new concepts, characters, transformations ... However we musn't forget the 'franchise' still wants to promote the same merhandise at the end with the content Shueisha and TOEI offers, so it's in their own intrest to establish some sort of relationship between the continuities.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Tai Lung » Sun Nov 22, 2020 4:42 pm

taking into account as beerus in the TOP ... he learned to respect humanity more after thanks to them his universe was saved and to recognize roshi and gohan as warriors ... if after that they would adapt the participation of beerus in moro arc it would literally shit on everything they had worked on before ...

the events are different .. the characters are different ... the powers are different no matter how much they have the same design sincerely it is time for them to separate so that each one has creative freedom

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kagari » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:52 pm

They've already really done their own things for a while - especially when it comes down to the character writing.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:47 pm

NO! The Anime should follow the Manga as the main continuity. Just like old days. The Anime should now become an adaptation of the Manga.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by DBPirate » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:16 pm

I would prefer they follow the same basic storyline, but I wouldn't mind if there were a few differences between the anime and the manga as there have been in the previous arcs. I've found the anime to be generally better for that reason.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:56 am I believe Toei will adapt the Moro arc their own way, hopefully expanding on it and on Moro's motivations, while keeping the major storyline, and I hope Toriyama will help them with dialogue, plot points, etc. He already did that in the past, he is clearly a man who wants the anime show of Dragon Ball to be as good as it can be.
This would definitely be the ideal scenario.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:01 pm

Not completely different, as in following the same outlines.

But I do hope they continue to diverge in terms of how they execute and differentiate from one another when it comes to telling that general story.

I don't want the anime to simply try adapting the manga, that's for sure. As much as people may want to clamour for that, I honestly feel like Toei Animation doing their own thing entirely separate from it has made them stand out more more and be more original and fresh by comparison. I've always hated "oh, but the original manga was like this" and really dug that the anime was as different as it was despite going through the same general outline beats.

They should stick with this model. It's just better for both Toyotaro and Toei; they get to do their own things that they're best at.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:45 pm

I don't think it's in any company's best interest to invest in a writing staff to come up with original content when they already have a story to work with. I think the Moro arc will be adapted as it is.

It's quite a mess having 2 and even 3 continuities, when you talk about Jiren, Beerus or any antagonist you have to clarify which media are you talking about. I think the anime should stick to the old formula, and maybe even adding supplementary material. They could come up -guided by Toriyama- with Moro's backstory, trying to expand on his character, more about the Dai. Tweeking here and there stuff that doesn't completely work or is left up in the air but not going their own way. I'd prefer two sides working together trying to improve an existing story rather than having two sides going different ways.

IMO they should follow the DBS route, working around Toriyama's plotploints that now are the manga as a whole.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:46 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:47 pm NO! The Anime should follow the Manga as the main continuity. Just like old days. The Anime should now become an adaptation of the Manga.
those times have already died since toriyama started with BofG movies ... we stopping living in the past

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by The Undying » Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:23 pm

It's clear that some fans have a preference for the anime, thanks to its more saccharine character interactions, "epic" showcase moments, slice-of-life segments that are divorced from any particular story arc, and so on, compared to the manga's commitment to thematic focus, internal cohesion, tonal adherence to the original manga, and narrative.

That's not to sound dismissive; it's their preference that they're entitled to. It does nothing for me, and I think it's all rather generic and completely diminishes DB's identity. Still, a complete divergence could provide that for them. We kinda already have it with the DB Heroes promotional anime. I wouldn't watch it, but that's okay because it's not made for me.

Personally, I'm more on board with the idea of a faithful manga adaptation starting with the Universe 6 Tournament arc. Toei would expand or add things as they see fit, but wouldn't encounter the hurdles of having an entire committee tell a story instead of just a couple of writers. You'd still have your cool animated fight scenes, but said fights would now potentially enhance the story rather than detract from it with things that constantly break the viewer's suspension of disbelief in basically every episode.

This is all assuming the anime even returns. I'm still not convinced that it will, at least anytime soon.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:07 pm

Something else to bear in mind is that the anime and manga are different mediums with different creative teams behind each now.

Toei Animation are an experienced animation studio who've done a lot of work on official production adaptations, while Toyotaro was relatively new to making a full-on official product for manga.

Differences in presentation and style are almost unavoidable since the mediums have to tell their stories in different ways.

With the manga being a monthly release, it can't linger and has to go through the beats; Toyotaro is also being groomed as Toriyama's successor by the man himself and by his own admission. Because of that, there's less room to breathe and he seems to imitate more, trying to recapture that Toriyama feeling. Personally, I think he's not doing a good enough job at that part to warrant being considered the primary continuity and example for the anime to adapt directly from.

With the anime having a major pre-production schedule, it has time to breathe and explore more by necessity due to needing to fill TV time slots. You get more varied but also wacky takes, and you can get some inconsistent moments. Needing to have voice roles filled and played and multiple writers does that. Personally, I think the anime is doing a good enough job on most fronts that it doesn't need to directly adapt anything more than the basic plot and character beats.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:16 pm

Anime and manga cannot have the same rhythm to ask that is ridiculous ...
Anyway I can make a comparison
which is more important ...? the fights of goku with devilman or the scene of goku reuniting with his grandfather gohan demonstrating more development as a character ... saying that's Saccharine just tells me that they like cardboard characters

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Psajdak » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:34 pm

Manga should continue for a while, dunno, maybe one more arc before reaching EoZ, and anime should be rebooted one day from the start with some 2020s updates, and sensibilities - when Toei is ready to completely recast characters with younger voice actors.

In the meantime, old seiyu can still be in Heroes promo anime, I guess...

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by batistabus » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:37 pm

By "completely different stories", do you mean the anime runs a Moro arc with differences as drastic as the Super anime/manga have had up until this point? Or do you mean that they should tell a story in the DBS universe with a different villain and story in place of the Moro arc?

If it's the first option, I don't think that would happen. The reason the anime and manga have such differences is because Toriyama gave a fairly bare-bones outline of the story. Toyo/Toei worked on different schedules with different support teams, so they filled in the results (mostly) independently. The Moro arc as seen in the manga boasts Toriyama as a co-writer, so he's got his touch/"seal of approval" throughout (despite Toyotaro's hands-on role). That aside, there's no "Toriyama outline" for the Moro arc that doesn't' involve direct input from Toyotaro.

The second option is even less likely. Why would Toei create their own story arc when Toriyama's already worked on one? It is natural for anime to adapt manga. (Of course, they're doing this with Dragon Ball Heroes, but obviously we're talking about the DBS """"""canon""""" continuity.)

What's the alternative? Do you expect a process like Toriyama has with Toyotaro but with Toei writers instead? Do you think Toriyama would go back to creating outlines for only the anime staff that don't jive with what he's doing for Toyotaro? Can you see them doing "Super" with bare minimum input from Toriyama (like GT), or less? I can't.

If the original and "Z" animes are any indication, we'll get a padded adaptation of the manga.
EGonzo wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:31 am I hope they do. Goku mastering UI the very next arc after it's introduced doesn't sit well with me at all.
UI was introduced in Resurrection F. It has taken longer to merely be able to used consistently than any transformation in Dragon Ball.
The form was set up as the endgame for Goku
There is no endgame for Goku.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by The Undying » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:34 am

My impression of the thread topic is that it was asking if the anime and manga would diverge into two entirely separate stories -- different villains and all. My reply, at least, was based on that premise.

If people mean adapting the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc from some general outline, that's totally out of the question. No such outline exists. The whole backbone of GPP's plot is a collaborative effort between Toyotaro and Toriyama from the ground up. As Uchida's interview spells out, this isn't like any of the previous arcs in Super, and the current process might stay that way for as long as the manga continues.

If the anime adapts it, it's all but guaranteed to adapt it faithfully with some possible additions. It's not going to arbitrarily change plot points.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by precita » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:37 pm

If the anime adapts Moro I'm not expecting it to play out the same way as the manga. People expecting a straight adaption, besides probably some added filler scenes, is unlikely to happen. While the core concepts and climax will probably remain the same, I expect everything else to be drastically different.

I wouldn't be surprised if the role for Gohan and the humans is increased in the anime over the manga version, for example.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by EGonzo » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:51 pm

batistabus wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:37 pm By "completely different stories", do you mean the anime runs a Moro arc with differences as drastic as the Super anime/manga have had up until this point? Or do you mean that they should tell a story in the DBS universe with a different villain and story in place of the Moro arc?

If it's the first option, I don't think that would happen. The reason the anime and manga have such differences is because Toriyama gave a fairly bare-bones outline of the story. Toyo/Toei worked on different schedules with different support teams, so they filled in the results (mostly) independently. The Moro arc as seen in the manga boasts Toriyama as a co-writer, so he's got his touch/"seal of approval" throughout (despite Toyotaro's hands-on role). That aside, there's no "Toriyama outline" for the Moro arc that doesn't' involve direct input from Toyotaro.

The second option is even less likely. Why would Toei create their own story arc when Toriyama's already worked on one? It is natural for anime to adapt manga. (Of course, they're doing this with Dragon Ball Heroes, but obviously we're talking about the DBS """"""canon""""" continuity.)

What's the alternative? Do you expect a process like Toriyama has with Toyotaro but with Toei writers instead? Do you think Toriyama would go back to creating outlines for only the anime staff that don't jive with what he's doing for Toyotaro? Can you see them doing "Super" with bare minimum input from Toriyama (like GT), or less? I can't.

If the original and "Z" animes are any indication, we'll get a padded adaptation of the manga.
EGonzo wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:31 am I hope they do. Goku mastering UI the very next arc after it's introduced doesn't sit well with me at all.
UI was introduced in Resurrection F. It has taken longer to merely be able to used consistently than any transformation in Dragon Ball.
The form was set up as the endgame for Goku
There is no endgame for Goku.
At the very least I hope they keep doing it the way they did, with their different interpretations of Toriyama's outline. It was fun to basically get two stories at once, and if you really wanted you could choose the best bits of each for your personal canon and have the perfect series.

I seriously dislike Toyo's storytelling. It's bland at best and insulting at worst, and relies way too much on recreating older moments instead of creating his own. If the anime can take as little from his ideas the better.

I know UI was mentioned in the Resurrection F arc, but the actual technique wasn't introduced until ToP and was treated as "what they can accomplish" if they keep training. Having him achieve it the very next arc, mostly off-screen really cheapens the 'specialness' of the form. Even Super Saiyan took a while before it got cheapened. I guess i used the wrong word with 'Endgame', what i meant is that mastering Ultra Instinct was set up as a goalpost that marked him finally reaching the gods. From then he could match them, then surpass them and go to the Angels and all that.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Nov 26, 2020 1:04 am

if the manga had a relevance today for toei ... the first thing they would have done is adapt the story of jako before super but it was not really the case ...

and the fact that toriyama asked to adapt the movies to anime and that included notable differences ... "Tagoma" ..

I could give examples of how kishimoto and kurumada no longer handle their works that way ... or the same case of GT can be taken into account in making an official series without story the author

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