Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by emperior » Wed Jul 21, 2021 3:36 pm

The anime could just start from after the end of Z and keep stuff introduced by Toyotaro or at least not contradict what he did. And then they could always adapt the manga’s original arcs later.

Continuing after Broly with new stories set when Moro and Granolah happened would be the most confusing thing ever and I don’t think I would like it.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by precita » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:58 pm

Well with the new movie info it's safe to say the manga is non-canon...to the anime continuity anyway. Now that we have a timeskip to somewhere in EOZ with an older Pan, anime viewers won't see Goku's new Ultra Instinct Powers or Vegeta's God form because they wouldn't skip over showing them as anime-only viewers will be confused and not understand what they're from. So those new forms won't be in this movie. Same for Moro's character and the other new characters.

It's safe to say the anime and manga are their own thing now. The manga is basically non-canon now.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:59 pm

No, it'll all be adapted into the next weekly cartoon.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Skar » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:33 pm

precita wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:58 pm Well with the new movie info it's safe to say the manga is non-canon...to the anime continuity anyway. Now that we have a timeskip to somewhere in EOZ with an older Pan, anime viewers won't see Goku's new Ultra Instinct Powers or Vegeta's God form because they wouldn't skip over showing them as anime-only viewers will be confused and not understand what they're from. So those new forms won't be in this movie. Same for Moro's character and the other new characters.

It's safe to say the anime and manga are their own thing now. The manga is basically non-canon now.
It might be like Broly and kinda just gloss over the events since the last movie. For the audience only watching the movies, it's only mentioned that Freeza was resurrected again and they met some characters from other universes since RoF and that might've been it.

I can't see the manga being completely ignored since Toriyama is still involved. I'm not sure if be would waste his time contributing anything to it if he planned on ignoring it anyway. I assume he would only take into consideration what he came up like how we only saw regular Blue in Broly and Gogeta was implied to be the first fusion Freeza met. We don't know what he came up with so maybe we find out depending if anything since Broly is referenced in the next movie.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by precita » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:50 pm

Yeah but other characters not living on Earth can be overlooked. Nobody had to mention who Jiren is or where Hit was because it wasn't relevant to the story about Broly. Goku/Vegeta not fighting at full strength would be kind of odd, if they do fight, because they wouldn't be allowed to go beyond Blue.

Toei won't include things from the manga that they never covered themselves, so they'll have to do their own canon or skip over it.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Cipher » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:53 pm

precita wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:58 pm Well with the new movie info it's safe to say the manga is non-canon...to the anime continuity anyway. Now that we have a timeskip to somewhere in EOZ with an older Pan, anime viewers won't see Goku's new Ultra Instinct Powers or Vegeta's God form because they wouldn't skip over showing them as anime-only viewers will be confused and not understand what they're from. So those new forms won't be in this movie. Same for Moro's character and the other new characters.

It's safe to say the anime and manga are their own thing now. The manga is basically non-canon now.
We’ll see what happens! If they diverge they diverge and we’ll all figure it out and live. But it definitely feels too early to make that prediction when the film seems to take place on the other side of a window of in-fiction time in which those arcs could have happened.

They might be lightly touched on, or not. But even Broly was surprisingly willing to reference continuity for a major release theatrical film. Most people hadn’t watched all of Super either, yet the plot hinges on Freeza being alive again. If they want UI to show up, it’s not hard to address with a line even for audience members unfamiliar with the later manga events.

Heck, ditto Vegeta’s new form, if he’s relevant. Nothing stopping either from debuting for the “first” time in a film a la the obtained-off-screen Blue.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:00 pm

Also remember that references to the comic can be added at the last moment relatively easily. The Tournament of Power references in Broli were accomplished with stills and audio.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Cipher » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:03 pm

JulieYBM wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:00 pm Also remember that references to the comic can be added at the last moment relatively easily. The Tournament of Power references in Broli were accomplished with stills and audio.
Yep! We got Kefla prominently featured and from what we know the development of her role occurred quite late into planning for that arc.

(Although more than likely the overlap of the movie and production for that arc is responsible for no dialogue comparison to Kale in the film.)

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:28 pm

Cipher wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:03 pm
JulieYBM wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:00 pm Also remember that references to the comic can be added at the last moment relatively easily. The Tournament of Power references in Broli were accomplished with stills and audio.
Yep! We got Kefla prominently featured and from what we know the development of her role occurred quite late into planning for that arc.

(Although more than likely the overlap of the movie and production for that arc is responsible for no dialogue comparison to Kale in the film.)
If anything, I'd say there's also time to add (if they're actually going to show up), both Ultra Instinct Goku and Vegeta's new form, assuming the movie releases around a year from now. Toriyama started writing the script for this movie right after Broly, but if I remember correctly he also started writing Broly before the Tournament of Power (and Freeza who only returned in the tournament ended up playing a big role in the movie).

Toyotaro also said that this time Toriyama took longer to write the script for the Granolah arc, so there would probably be enough time/planning to connect the two stories if necessary since the production of Super Hero had already started at that point.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by JulieYBM » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:32 pm

Pretty sure it was confirmed at the panel that while the script was written four-plus years ago minute changes were made since then. That's probably why if Gokuu does appear he will use Ultra Instinct.
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kinokima » Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:38 pm

precita wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:58 pm Well with the new movie info it's safe to say the manga is non-canon...to the anime continuity anyway. Now that we have a timeskip to somewhere in EOZ with an older Pan, anime viewers won't see Goku's new Ultra Instinct Powers or Vegeta's God form because they wouldn't skip over showing them as anime-only viewers will be confused and not understand what they're from. So those new forms won't be in this movie. Same for Moro's character and the other new characters.

It's safe to say the anime and manga are their own thing now. The manga is basically non-canon now.

I am not really sure how you can say the manga is non-canon based on a teaser trailer of Goku jumping around and a couple random character designs.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Skar » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:01 pm

precita wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:50 pm Yeah but other characters not living on Earth can be overlooked. Nobody had to mention who Jiren is or where Hit was because it wasn't relevant to the story about Broly. Goku/Vegeta not fighting at full strength would be kind of odd, if they do fight, because they wouldn't be allowed to go beyond Blue.

Toei won't include things from the manga that they never covered themselves, so they'll have to do their own canon or skip over it.
Well there wouldn't be a reason to mention Moro and Granolah in the next movie since they wouldn't be relevant to it. If someone watched RoF followed by Broly, they wouldn't have any idea that three arcs took place between the two movies since Goku and Vegeta were using the same form they used in RoF and the only reference to those arcs was to explain how Freeza was resurrected again. UI was technically first hinted at in RoF so the next movie might introduce it and explain Goku achieved it in offscreen training between movies like Blue and Vegeta having SSJG in Broly.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Mister_Popo » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:40 am

To be honest .... I don't like the story in the manga from the Moro arc onwards.
I tried to be positive about it, but it just doesn't work for me: such slow, lame and inspirationless writing, overstuffed with fanservice and tributes. (it could just be me here, no one has to agree)
It basically feels like 'canon filler' to me. They don't have to waste anime resources on it as far i'm concerned.
I hope the timeskip in the new movie is permanent, and if there were to be new movies and an anime thereafter, everything plays out after the current manga storyline.

I have grown from they 'should adapt the current manga in an adapted storyformat' to 'they shouldn't do it at all, and just skip it'. The timeskip of the new movie fits within that perspective of a new hope.
A drastically new beginning, in terms of animation and writing, that's what i am hoping for this time. :D
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by nhienphan2808 » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:02 am

Yes. Toyotaro is writing different versions of all characters and has no idea. I hardly recognize them.
ShadowWolf87 wrote:Freeza beat Goku, beat Vegeta, and destroyed the Earth. Even if no one else knows it, who does? Goku.
Who gets told it's his fault for being so careless? Goku.
Who has to live with that similar to how he wanted to make Freeza live with the fact he'd been beaten by what he considered trash, and have to live with that shame? Goku.
Freeza got the perfect revenge.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kinokima » Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:48 am

Mister_Popo wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:40 am To be honest .... I don't like the story in the manga from the Moro arc onwards.
I tried to be positive about it, but it just doesn't work for me: such slow, lame and inspirationless writing, overstuffed with fanservice and tributes. (it could just be me here, no one has to agree)
It basically feels like 'canon filler' to me. They don't have to waste anime resources on it as far i'm concerned.
I hope the timeskip in the new movie is permanent, and if there were to be new movies and an anime thereafter, everything plays out after the current manga storyline.

I have grown from they 'should adapt the current manga in an adapted storyformat' to 'they shouldn't do it at all, and just skip it'. The timeskip of the new movie fits within that perspective of a new hope.
A drastically new beginning, in terms of animation and writing, that's what i am hoping for this time. :D
I mean you may not like the manga storyline but with it not being animated it sucks for people who do. Anything stuck in the manga will never (or barely) get any merchandise and never be brought over to games like Dokkan. I’ll never get to hear the Seiyuu voice those scenes or see the animation.

The manga isn’t perfect to me but there are things from it I want outside of just being in a print format.

Also we don’t actually know how far of a time skip the movie is. It looks like a time skip because of Pan’s design but in Japan kids start kindergarten at age 3 and if Pan is only 3 it’s much less of a time skip than we may think.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by precita » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:21 pm

If people can accept Dragon Ball Heroes isn't canon, the storylines from the Xenoverse videogames, as well as Android 21 from Fighter Z...aren't canon...then why is the Super manga treated any differently? Its basically become its own thing, an off-shoot of main canon the same way Heroes and all the other videogames are.

You don't see people asking for Future Trunks to become a Time patrol member in canon, for Android 21 to appear in canon, for villains like Hearts, etc. to be canon. So how is Moro and the other manga arcs any different?

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kinokima » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:30 pm

precita wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:21 pm If people can accept Dragon Ball Heroes isn't canon, the storylines from the Xenoverse videogames, as well as Android 21 from Fighter Z...aren't canon...then why is the Super manga treated any differently? Its basically become its own thing, an off-shoot of main canon the same way Heroes and all the other videogames are.

You don't see people asking for Future Trunks to become a Time patrol member in canon, for Android 21 to appear in canon, for villains like Hearts, etc. to be canon. So how is Moro and the other manga arcs any different?

We get that you don’t like the manga but this is a ridiculous argument. Toriyama directly works with Toyo on the manga. Heroes is its own side thing to sell cards. And video games are video games & were never considered canon.


Here is a direct quote about the current Granolah arc being from a draft from Toriyama. But yeah it’s the same as the video games.
Q: What can we look forward to with the "Survivor Granola arc"?
A: This time the planning took even longer than for the last story arc, but it was worth it because Toriyama-sensei wrote a great original draft. I can't say what the story's about yet, but there will be plenty of twists and new revelations to get everyone excited. Things are going to heat up hotter than ever before, so be sure to check it out!

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:06 pm

That individual is so frustrated with the manga that even the games that have nothing to do with anything aren't spared. It's kinda scary, to be honest. :?
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:30 pmAnd video games are video games & were never considered canon.
What is considered "canon"?
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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Kinokima » Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:12 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:06 pm That individual is so frustrated with the manga that even the games that have nothing to do with anything aren't spared. It's kinda scary, to be honest. :?
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:30 pmAnd video games are video games & were never considered canon.
What is considered "canon"?
If we are talking Super I think you can argue the movies and both anime & manga. Just the anime & manga told parallel versions of the same story.

I admit the word “canon” has kind of lost some of its original meaning it’s just people say the manga isn’t canon to discredit it. The main point though is Toriyama is more involved with the manga than other Dragon Ball products.
Last edited by Kinokima on Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should the Super manga and anime divert into completely different stories now?

Post by Grimlock » Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:19 pm

Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:12 pmIf we are talking Super I think you can argue the movies and both anime & manga. Just the anime & manga told parallel versions of the same story.
Can we? Are we going to argue based on... what? Who said? Where are the evidences?
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:12 pmI admit the word “canon” has kind of lost some of its original meaning it’s just people say the manga isn’t canon to discredit it.
"Kind of"? It never even had a meaning without proper official confirmation.
Kinokima wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:12 pmThe main point though is Toriyama is more involved with the manga than other Dragon Ball products.
Eh, I don't really think we know enough to say the reality of it. Unless someone among us is a spy from inside Shueisha and has access to the development of the anime and manga. If I were to guess, it's a completely gray area.

At any rate, is Toriyama's involvement some kind of "law" that determine whether a certain material is canonical or not? Because if that is the case, then I have a few more questions concerning a contradictory behavior that I notice from observing people regarding this particular subject.
Last edited by Grimlock on Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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