Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

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Yuji
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Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:28 pm

As someone who actually likes Super Saiyan Blue aesthetically, I can't help but wonder if the original intent of the form was lost. If we take Resurrection 'F' as a standalone product, it is clear that Super Saiyan Blue was merely the Godly equivalent of Super Saiyan, exclusive to a Goku and Vegeta that could no longer access the golden-haired Super Saiyan forms nor Super Saiyan God, since they had absorbed that realm into their base forms. Super Saiyan Blue, as it was presented in the movie, was implied to be their sole transformation. Of course, this idea did not last long and by the very next arc, Goku and Vegeta could not only access the golden Super Saiyan forms once more but also the red-haired Super Saiyan God in the manga (and, later in the ToP, in the anime as well).

To me, the existence of two God forms seems redundant, as the narrative purpose of Super Saiyan Blue post-RoF could have been filled by Super Saiyan God instead. The manga's excessive energy drain drawback, and the continuous upgrades and completions of the form, could have applied to SSG instead, and that in turn would have made the God form seem more special and given the golden-haired forms, especially the severely underwhelming SS3, more spotlight as well. Instead, the other forms seem useless or unnecessary as SSG is essentially treated as the most efficient form in the manga (whereas in the anime it's given to SSB outright, making even SSG useless and unnecessary). SSG's magnificence in power is lessened by the existence of the stronger SSB, and SSB's rarity and uniqueness is in turn lessened by the existence of the equally special and hard to attain SSG. The two forms should not coexist, in my view.

Of course, now it's impossible to change anything, but it's interesting to speculate what could have happened if Toriyama had never changed his mind on the concept of SSB as Goku and Vegeta's sole transformation, or if SSB existed at all if Toriyama had planned Super out more extensively and realized he wanted to bring back SSG and the golden forms in the following arcs.

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:28 pm

It's always been an issue with the main protagonists. As they have the most screentime, they also have the most forms, and many of them thus tend to be redundant. It's always hilarious when Goku and Vegeta test out their opponent's strength by going through every form they have, because it looks so goofy. I still remember finding Goku vs. Jiren in ep. 109 so silly.

Regardless, I would have introduced Blue in the Future Trunks arc and tied that into Super Saiyan Rosé. As explained by Future Zamasu, Super Saiyan Rosé is when a natural-born Deity (in this case, Goku Black aka Zamasu) surpasses the normal Super Saiyan God. It makes sense that a God would have pioneered this method of going beyond SSG. Goku and Vegeta should have simply imitated what Black did, but would've gotten Blue as they are mere mortals. That arc seemed like a decent point to introduce Super Saiyan God+ levels for the protagonists.

Also, out of curiosity, isn't Blue's full name "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan"? Jesus that's redundant :roll:
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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:54 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:28 pm
It's always been an issue with the main protagonists. As they have the most screentime, they also have the most forms, and many of them thus tend to be redundant. It's always hilarious when Goku and Vegeta test out their opponent's strength by going through every form they have, because it looks so goofy. I still remember finding Goku vs. Jiren in ep. 109 so silly.

Regardless, I would have introduced Blue in the Future Trunks arc and tied that into Super Saiyan Rosé. As explained by Future Zamasu, Super Saiyan Rosé is when a natural-born Deity (in this case, Goku Black aka Zamasu) surpasses the normal Super Saiyan God. It makes sense that a God would have pioneered this method of going beyond SSG. Goku and Vegeta should have simply imitated what Black did, but would've gotten Blue as they are mere mortals. That arc seemed like a decent point to introduce Super Saiyan God+ levels for the protagonists.

Also, out of curiosity, isn't Blue's full name "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan"? Jesus that's redundant :roll:
I agree. I actually toyed with this scenario in my head while writing this thread, of introducing SSB first in the form of Rosé and only then as the blue-haired form Goku and Vegeta achieve after training. Or perhaps they don't even achieve Blue; Rosé remains exclusive to Goku Black, and Goku/Vegeta defeat the more powerful and advanced Black through some combination of a stratagem, unique techniques and perfecting any flaw SSG may have had in this hypothetical.

Though I also wonder what Black would look like if SSB didn't exist, and Rosé was introduced not as "SSB but pink" but rather "SSG but pink."

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Kakkaroto735 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:24 pm

I would have loved if Super Saiyan God was the strongest form but they could only access it through ritual. Blue would have been the only thing they could just pull out in battle.

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:37 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:54 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:28 pm
It's always been an issue with the main protagonists. As they have the most screentime, they also have the most forms, and many of them thus tend to be redundant. It's always hilarious when Goku and Vegeta test out their opponent's strength by going through every form they have, because it looks so goofy. I still remember finding Goku vs. Jiren in ep. 109 so silly.

Regardless, I would have introduced Blue in the Future Trunks arc and tied that into Super Saiyan Rosé. As explained by Future Zamasu, Super Saiyan Rosé is when a natural-born Deity (in this case, Goku Black aka Zamasu) surpasses the normal Super Saiyan God. It makes sense that a God would have pioneered this method of going beyond SSG. Goku and Vegeta should have simply imitated what Black did, but would've gotten Blue as they are mere mortals. That arc seemed like a decent point to introduce Super Saiyan God+ levels for the protagonists.

Also, out of curiosity, isn't Blue's full name "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan"? Jesus that's redundant :roll:
I agree. I actually toyed with this scenario in my head while writing this thread, of introducing SSB first in the form of Rosé and only then as the blue-haired form Goku and Vegeta achieve after training. Or perhaps they don't even achieve Blue; Rosé remains exclusive to Goku Black, and Goku/Vegeta defeat the more powerful and advanced Black through some combination of a stratagem, unique techniques and perfecting any flaw SSG may have had in this hypothetical.
Yeah, that's a good idea. That would also give SSG some more time to shine in the Golden Frieza and Universe 6 arcs, and I suppose the Tournament of Power could be postponed (since it introduces another new form).

The funny thing is that they ended up introducing a new form in the Future Trunks arc anyway, which is that... huh, thing... that Future Trunks got. It would've been better if they used that arc to just introduce Super Saiyan Blue really, as it makes way more sense as a transformation.
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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:21 pm

Kakkaroto735 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:24 pm
I would have loved if Super Saiyan God was the strongest form but they could only access it through ritual. Blue would have been the only thing they could just pull out in battle.
I'm also a fan of this idea, since the ritual is another plot device the characters can use at any point to grant Gohan, for example, or even the kids with a massive, permanent power-up. SSB being a powered-down SSG achieved through training while the real thing is exclusive to the ritual process sounds like a good workaround to this.

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:33 pm

I would say that the approach to the SSB in the manga kind of fixed what was done with the SSG. Rather than being replaced by a new, stronger form, the manga made Goku and Vegeta concentrate on overcoming the weaknesses of this transformation instead of new power ups, and it gave this form more longevity and the feeling that the SSB was powerful (something that was missing in the anime in various moments).

I think something similar should have been done with SSG. But at the same time, Toriyama never seemed interested in using the God form again, as he replaced it in the very next movie. Perhaps SSB was his way for him to expand the God forms concept. Yeah, it seems redundant to have these two forms, but the anime kind of showed that it was necessary so that the SSB was not used all the time, which devalued the transformation for some people. It was necessary to have this middle ground for Goku to face God level opponents but without using his strongest form

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Kakkaroto735 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:00 pm

Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:21 pm
Kakkaroto735 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 6:24 pm
I would have loved if Super Saiyan God was the strongest form but they could only access it through ritual. Blue would have been the only thing they could just pull out in battle.
I'm also a fan of this idea, since the ritual is another plot device the characters can use at any point to grant Gohan, for example, or even the kids with a massive, permanent power-up. SSB being a powered-down SSG achieved through training while the real thing is exclusive to the ritual process sounds like a good workaround to this.
In addition, It would have also been great if UI was the only form. MUI makes little sense for existing other than to increase power creep. UI should have bigger drawbacks too. Right now the story can change how long he can stay in it at any time. It would be better if it was something specific. Maybe he can't fight for some amount of time or he can't use his ki if he goes too far with it. We need consequences in Dragon Ball and the God system has gotten rid of so much tension.

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Yuji » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:20 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:33 pm
I would say that the approach to the SSB in the manga kind of fixed what was done with the SSG. Rather than being replaced by a new, stronger form, the manga made Goku and Vegeta concentrate on overcoming the weaknesses of this transformation instead of new power ups, and it gave this form more longevity and the feeling that the SSB was powerful (something that was missing in the anime in various moments).
The manga provided SSB with some much needed drawbacks, but it brought up another problem: rather than make SSB the most overpowered form as it was portrayed in the anime, it made SSG the most efficient form instead, essentially turning all the golden-haired forms useless when SSG seems to lack the energy drain of SS2 and especially SS3, while providing dozens of times the power boost. There should have been only one God form if the intent of the manga is to make every form useful with its own niche (and that indeed seems to be Toyotarou's intent).

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Xeogran » Sun Dec 06, 2020 8:17 am

This topic makes me think whether anything would happen if there was a ritual full of Super Saiyan Gods :lol:

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:44 am

Yuji wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:20 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:33 pm
I would say that the approach to the SSB in the manga kind of fixed what was done with the SSG. Rather than being replaced by a new, stronger form, the manga made Goku and Vegeta concentrate on overcoming the weaknesses of this transformation instead of new power ups, and it gave this form more longevity and the feeling that the SSB was powerful (something that was missing in the anime in various moments).
The manga provided SSB with some much needed drawbacks, but it brought up another problem: rather than make SSB the most overpowered form as it was portrayed in the anime, it made SSG the most efficient form instead, essentially turning all the golden-haired forms useless when SSG seems to lack the energy drain of SS2 and especially SS3, while providing dozens of times the power boost. There should have been only one God form if the intent of the manga is to make every form useful with its own niche (and that indeed seems to be Toyotarou's intent).
To be honest, at least based on the Broly movie, it seems that Toriyam's intention is to make Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan God / Super Saiyan Blue the main forms used by Goku and Vegeta in combat, sort of getting rid of SSJ2 and 3 (which is aligned with his old statement that implied that it would be better for Goku to just continue improving his base / SSJ form instead of using SSJ2 and 3 which use a lot of energy).

Toyotaro and TOEI however seem to like the powered up versions of the SSJ considering how much they have been used in manga and anime (SSJ3 has surprisingly appeared in all manga arcs so far). I think to have a sense of character scaling it works, but I agree that some of these forms appear to be redundant or have little use in real combat

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by emperior » Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:05 pm

I honestly liked a lot how the power progression was portrayed in Broly thanks to there being three forms which get progressively much stronger.

I think there the power scaling goes SSG = SS x5 and SSB = SSG x2 which is why SS Broly turns out to be too much even for two SSBs, as it is supposed to be a 5x boost on top of what Broly had up until then. And if we assume green Broly is mixing SS with Rage then these numbers also would explain why Gogeta needed a 10x boost on top of SS to win, and couldn’t just use God.

In the movie’s particular case it worked very well. But the progression also worked very well in the manga’s Goku vs Hit fight (which followed the same basic progression).

Also as has been already pointed out, Toyotaro did a better job when handling Blue and he really differentiated it from SSG especially power wise while the anime needed to add Kaioken on top of it to make it stand out (thus one wonders if in the anime a combo of SSG + Kaioken would be almost as effective).
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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:46 pm

Yeah, everything they did with Blue they could have done with God.

But God's design wasn't well received so they made Blue. You could easily replace Blue with God(or viceversa) and there wouldn't be any difference in the story

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:05 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:46 pm
God's design wasn't well received so they made Blue.
Source?

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:17 pm

emperior wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 3:05 pm
Also as has been already pointed out, Toyotaro did a better job when handling Blue and he really differentiated it from SSG especially power wise while the anime needed to add Kaioken on top of it to make it stand out (thus one wonders if in the anime a combo of SSG + Kaioken would be almost as effective).
Honestly, I think the introduction of Kaioken on top the SSB damaged the God transformations (and the powerscaling) more than it made it look strong. The fact that an external power up was required for the SSB (a form that had been introduced just in the previous arc) to face the main antagonist did not help to make the transformation look impressive, and to make it worse the boost was 10x, with even Hit being able to contend with Goku in that form, making the SSB look even more underwhelming

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Lord Frieza » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:38 pm

Well, and this was always speculation on my part, but I suspect that, based on what Toriyama was saying around the time the movies were coming out that, SSB was originally ment to be a replacement form for all of Goku's other transformation's. He just have his god power boosted base form and SSB. Hell I think blue only exists because Toei didn't want a new form to market while Toriyama just wanted to dump them all save base SS post BoG. If they had gone down that rought I think things would at least be a little more streamlined.

When super came along though, you can almost feel the gears grinding in a different direction once we hit the Champa arc, which was reason why there was so much confusion at the time and why we had massive arguments about "Saiyan Beyond God" and what not.

I'm also thougrally convinced that SSG was ment to be a one off power up but was brought back by popular demand.

Again thats all speculation on my part and we may never really know the full story behind it all until details about production come out.

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Psajdak » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:33 pm

The way I understood it, the original intention of SSB was simply to mirror the first, and arguably the most iconic appearance of Super Saiyan, which was during the Goku vs Freeza fight, considering after so many years those two clashed again in canon, which WAS the big thing when you think about it, what with Freeza being the most popular DB villain, and all.

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by BWri » Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:49 pm

They've basically been undercutting the God Forms since RoF. SSG and SSB have been repeatedly hit the hardest.

In the movies:
  • In ROF the introduction of SSGSS made the original SSG irrelevant, because even with the name it's conveyed that SSGSS is much stronger than SSG. SSG really had no time to breathe before being replaced and the thinking at the time was that SSGSS was likely just a more natural replacement for SSG.
  • All god forms are casually devalued by having a mortal (Frieza) reach this level of power effortlessly. Further devalued when it turns out god ki itself provides virtually no value over mortal ki. Also, Frieza was stronger than both for a time. The form also provided no defense against a run of the mill finger laser.
Movie Fixes:
  • Could've extended the life of SSG for another movie, maybe just adding more intensity to the design as Goku and Vegeta get stronger like a raging inferno. And maybe explain that some residual effects from the ritual effected Vegeta as well.
  • Put a hard limit on mortal ki so that the move to god ki makes more sense for Goku and Vegeta. As is, it just seems like they have the worst potentials of any characters in the show. Why would they need a shortcut for this power, when everyone else around them seems to be casually crossing over that godhood line? Or at the very least add a clear advantage for god ki over mortal ki.
  • Have Frieza obtain some sort of god ki as well to contend with Goku and Vegeta, likely with Champa's intervention. Frieza could have been the perfect distraction to help Champa get the U7 Dragon Balls.
In the anime:
  • The anime has similar problems to the movies but adds mortal Super Saiyan forms into the mix in the U6 tournament. Instead of SSB being the end all be all/swiss-army-knife of forms, the one that's most powerful and has perfect ki control, instead we revert back to previous forms.
  • Reverting back to previous forms takes away the mystique of the new ones. Now it becomes completely evident that SSB is mostly a recolor of SSJ. This wouldn't be a problem if it maintained it's role as "successor" form. I never liked the design of SSB personally outside of the aura, but if it were the only thing available and lived up to its concept I could easily get behind it like I did for the RoF movie.
  • Like the movie, after being surpassed by Frieza and being told by Vegeta and Goku that there was apparently a power ceiling for them at the time (RoSaT scene) SSB is again devalued when Vegeta can't contend with Hit in SSB AT ALL but Goku in base proceeds to gain an advantage with a simple strategy. It's devalued again when it has to be combined with an incredibly high level of Kaioken in order to contend with Hit who is seemingly also operating with mortal power.
  • In the Future Trunks/Goku Black arc, we have scenes like SSJ Trunks and SSB Goku fighting side by side, with Trunks fighting the stronger enemy alone in sections mind you. This is after SSB Vegeta is one-shot by that same enemy. Trunks is even taking blasts to the face that are hurting SSB Goku. And after being defeated several times and retreating to the past, its Trunks, a mortal who holds of BOTH Black and Zamasu for god knows how long by himself. He even manages to escape from them somehow.
  • In the recruitment arc Android 17 pushes Goku to using SSB and even after fighting the form states that he was holding back. Goku was holding back too but still... 17 is confirmed to then be fighting at this level for the rest of the tournament. Gohan, a rusty mortal only recently awakening to the power he used to have also seemingly reaches this level or close to it. Piccolo, who's power has been largely irrelevant since the Buu arc is able to do great damage to fighters (U6 Namekians) at that same level.
  • Things are more respectable for SSB during the ToP. It's treated the best its ever been treated outside of a few spots like Kale ragdolling SSB Goku, but overall it holds an air of a godly form. It is still limited vs many opponents but in this case it effectively makes those opponents seem even more menacing, but of course it's ultimately outclassed by the new UI.
Anime Fixes:
  • Too many to list. The anime is a hot mess when it comes to SSB and SSG.
  • I guess the main ones would have to be, keep it consistent. Don't combine SSB with Kaioken in the arc after it's introduced (as cool as it looked), especially in an arc as mild as the U6 tournament. Don't spam the forms so much. Keep it simple.
In the manga:
  • Things are much better for the god forms in the manga, but they still suffer from similar issues. Other mortals like Gohan and Frieza are still able to reach god tier without the shortcuts Goku and Vegeta took which does devalue our protagonists and their 80 different forms. Gohan even simplifies his transformation line by refusing transformations altogether. That's the most badass thing I've been any Saiyan do. I was hoping for a similar result with SSB, but instead that form is given a stamina limitation in the manga.
  • I think the idea of mastering SSB returned a lot of missing mystique to the form. It provided more context to how Frieza could briefly defeat a highly trained SSB and allowed for a massive level of growth for both Saiyan fighters. And miraculously, the form lasted for 3 and 3/4s of an arc before being replaced with something better.

Manga Fixes:
  • Continue to iterate on SSG instead of introducing SSB. Only introduce SSB if there's really a need to have a form that utilizes perfect ki control.
  • Again, place hard limits on mortal ki or add something special to god ki so that it's clearly superior to mortal ki.
  • Eliminate the need for the OG SSJ forms. SSB should have all the ki control needed to fight at lower levels and conserve stamina. If not, officially introduce the "two-base" equation into the mix.
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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:53 am

BWri wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 10:49 pm
Things are much better for the god forms in the manga, but they still suffer from similar issues. Other mortals like Gohan and Frieza are still able to reach god tier without the shortcuts Goku and Vegeta took which does devalue our protagonists and their 80 different forms. Gohan even simplifies his transformation line by refusing transformations altogether. That's the most badass thing I've been any Saiyan do. I was hoping for a similar result with SSB, but instead that form is given a stamina limitation in the manga.
I agree with most of your post. I just wanted to reiterate that although we also have Freeza and Gohan reaching levels similar to that of SSB in the manga, they essentially never overcame true power of this form (CSSB). Nor Toppo, or Kefla, or Aniraza. In the manga the only beings that really surpassed the SSB (apart from the Gods and Angels) were the antagonists, more specifically 3 of them (Broly, Moro and Jiren), so I would say that it is a more favorable scenario for this transformation

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Re: Is Super Saiyan Blue redundant?

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:09 pm

Yes. It removed everything that made SsjG unique in favor of a literal Ssj1 recolor. What makes things worse is how lackluster its introduction was, Goku and Vegeta just transform with no build up or anything. It doesn't help that the actual transformation itself is also underwhelming.

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