What would be the breaking point Super would do that would make you feel like it jumped the shark?

[precita]

This is for either the anime/manga.

Super introduced new color swap Super Saiyan forms, a Golden form for Freeza and making him reach the power of Blue in 4 months overtaking all previous DBZ villains, power scaling sometimes goes out of whack, Roshi can now fight super strong warriors despite dying to King Piccolo back in Dragon Ball, and characters like Gohan, Trunks, and Goten are treated with far less importance than they were in the Boo saga.

What would be the breaking point for you where you feel Super has gone to the point of no return? Even disappointing arcs like Moro can be excused if the manga gets a better arc that follows it. What would it take?

[OLKv3]

If it bored me. That's all, I'm a simple guy

[batistabus]

If SDBH had full-length episodes and was the only new DB content, I probably couldn't get through the entire series. As it is, SDBH is terrible, but at least it's only 10 minutes long. I'm content watching the episodes out of curiosity, shaking my head, and moving on with my life. In this alternate scenario, I'd still hang out on Kanzenshuu, but I'd go back to talking about the manga (now with Toyotaro's contributions) like I did before 2013.

[SupremeKai25]

If SDBH had full-length episodes and was the only new DB content, I probably couldn't get through the entire series. As it is, SDBH is terrible, but at least it's only 10 minutes long. I'm content watching the episodes out of curiosity, shaking my head, and moving on with my life. In this alternate scenario, I'd still hang out on Kanzenshuu, but I'd go back to talking about the manga (now with Toyotaro's contributions) like I did before 2013.

I mean, have you considered the idea that maybe it is a bad show precisely because every episode is only 10 minutes long? It's not exactly easy to properly develop the story, character interactions, dialogue, power consistency, etc. in such a small amount of time.

[batistabus]

I mean, have you considered the idea that maybe it is a bad show precisely because every episode is only 10 minutes long? It's not exactly easy to properly develop the story, character interactions, dialogue, power consistency, etc. in such a small amount of time.

I don't think the brevity has anything to do with why I dislike SDBH. As I said, that might be my favorite thing about it. I think it's harmless as is, but if it were presented to us as the main DB product, I'd find it a lot more offensive.

I have never read the manga, so I suppose my opinion might change if I had, but as far as I know, there's no legal way to read it, and I'm not interested enough to go digging. If the anime is any indication, the "ideas" don't respect the established characters or lore, and as presented, it contains very little of what I like about Toriyama's Dragon Ball.

[Chuquita]

I feel like we're already there, and the Jump the Shark moment was bringing Freeza back for the ToP and then bringing him back to life.

[Grimlock]

Yep, pretty sure we're already there. It all started with Movie 15 to me. Well, since that's a Dragon Ball Z movie, then it technically started as soon as it was decided to waste time with retellings.

If the anime is any indication, the "ideas" don't respect the established characters or lore

You say that but oddly enough, it isn't Heroes that keeps "retconning" or changing established things for the sake of it. So where are you saying the same thing about Dragon Ball Super? Also, the anime is hardly an indication to anything. Yes, it being just a short promotional anime does play a major role in it.

[SupremeKai25]

I mean, have you considered the idea that maybe it is a bad show precisely because every episode is only 10 minutes long? It's not exactly easy to properly develop the story, character interactions, dialogue, power consistency, etc. in such a small amount of time.

I don't think the brevity has anything to do with why I dislike SDBH. As I said, that might be my favorite thing about it. I think it's harmless as is, but if it were presented to us as the main DB product, I'd find it a lot more offensive.

I have never read the manga, so I suppose my opinion might change if I had, but as far as I know, there's no legal way to read it, and I'm not interested enough to go digging. If the anime is any indication, the "ideas" don't respect the established characters or lore, and as presented, it contains very little of what I like about Toriyama's Dragon Ball.

But that is my point. Brevity is your favourite thing about Heroes because it is a show full of inconsistencies and nonsense (which it is), so the quicker it ends, the better. But at the same time I think that a lot of those inconsistencies would be avoided if each episode was given more time to explain everything, showcase more character interactions, etc. At which point, I would say that brevity is actually the main weakness of Heroes and is holding it back.

I personally went into Heroes with 0 expectations precisely because I do not expect much from a 10-minutes long episode. I would probably take it more seriously if it was a fully-fledged anime like normal Super.

Regardless I agree that Heroes as the main product of Dragon Ball would be terrible. It is more of a fun side thing really.

[batistabus]

You say that but oddly enough, it isn't Heroes that keeps "retconning" or changing established things for the sake of it. So where are you saying the same thing about Dragon Ball Super? Also, the anime is hardly an indication to anything. Yes, it being just a short promotional anime does play a major role in it.

I'm not talking about retcons. But since I am now, I have no problem with retcons as long as they come from Toriyama and they're fun.

Sure, episodes are short, but as of now, there are over three hours of SDBH footage. That's plenty of time to tell an interesting story, even in small bites. Comic strips in newspapers are short, but that doesn't necessitate that they're bad. But yes, the fact that it's a promo anime surely affects the quality.

[GodVegetto91]

This is for either the anime/manga.

Super introduced new color swap Super Saiyan forms, a Golden form for Freeza and making him reach the power of Blue in 4 months overtaking all previous DBZ villains, power scaling sometimes goes out of whack, Roshi can now fight super strong warriors despite dying to King Piccolo back in Dragon Ball, and characters like Gohan, Trunks, and Goten are treated with far less importance than they were in the Boo saga.

What would be the breaking point for you where you feel Super has gone to the point of no return? Even disappointing arcs like Moro can be excused if the manga gets a better arc that follows it. What would it take?

Also, SSJ Blue Goku outperformed SSJ Blue Vegito during the battle against Zamasu. He also outperformed Future Trunks and SSJ Blue Vegeta fighting together (the latter of which was significantly stronger than Goku at this point, thanks to the 6 months he spent inside the time chamber, which Goku didn’t get.)

Then you have Trunks outperforming SSJ Blue Vegito with a Genki Dama Spirit Sword made up of the energy of just 12 malnourished people.

In the Anime you have Merged Zamasu straight up overpowering Vegito Blue at one point (even though Vegito Blue should’ve been thousands upon thousands of times stronger according to certain powerscaling rules which I’m not going to get into right now.)

[Matches Malone]

Modern DB jumped the shark years ago, at this point the shark is doing back flips.

Vegeta getting a pointless brother.
Dragon Ball Minus.
The power scaling in general.
U6's Saiyans and especially Female "Broly".
Everything about Future Trunks and his power.
The end of the Zamasu arc.
Canonizing Broly.
Turning Freeza into a joke character.
Goku giving Moro a senzu.
The multiple colored variants of Ssj.
The treatment of Gohan and Piccolo.

As far far as I'm concerned, we're way beyond the point of no return. Like I said in another topic, between Super and GT, DB got the short end of the stick when it comes to sequels.

[SSJgogeto]

If it bored me.

This...

If SDBH had full-length episodes and was the only new DB content, I probably couldn't get through the entire series.

And maybe this. I don't really like Heroes, but it's still harmless content.

[Grimlock]

I'm not talking about retcons.

What are you talking about then? Where does Heroes "disrespect" the established characters and lore?

Sure, episodes are short, but as of now, there are over three hours of SDBH footage. That's plenty of time to tell an interesting story, even in small bites. Comic strips in newspapers are short, but that doesn't necessitate that they're bad. But yes, the fact that it's a promo anime surely affects the quality.

I think that if it was their intention to do so, Toei/Bandai would. The anime is merely an alternative take on the events presented by the arcade with probably the purpose to market even more the game along with the manga. From this point of view, unnecessary, as the arcade can and has been sustained itself for years now. Probably they don't want to step on anyone's toes and that's why they keep the anime as it is? Because, again, I'm confident if they wanted to make it a big deal, they would (and they might once Toriyama retires).

[Jord]

Letting the villain win.....only for someone to turn back time and give the heroes another chance to beat the villain.
Oh wait...

[PurestEvil]

...it already has.

[Alruneia]

I'm gonna echo what other people have said already and just say that it kinda already has, and the first shark-jumping moment was probably Frieza's resurrection. Resurrection F pretty much set the tone for all of Super, with old characters being brought back, the start of heavy usage of fanservice moments, random immense powerups, and more.
Here's the Wikipedia definition of jumping the shark:

Jumping the shark is an idiom used to describe the moment of a misguided attempt at generating new publicity for something once, but no longer, widely popular; the attempt serves instead to highlight the irrelevance of what it intends to promote.
(...)
The idiom "jumping the shark" is pejorative, most commonly used in reference to unsuccessful gimmicks for promoting something. It is similar to "past its peak", but it more specifically suggests an unwillingness to acknowledge the fact.
(...)
The usage of "jump the shark" has subsequently broadened beyond television, indicating the moment when a brand, design, franchise, or creative effort's evolution declines, or when it changes notably in style into something unwelcome.

It's mostly the last part of the quote that applies here, specifically "a creative effort's evolution declines". It's not like all of modern Dragon Ball has been like this, as Battle of Gods managed to be a great addition to the story without shifting the style into what it is today, but from Resurrection F onward, we have what we have.

If that doesn't feel completely right, then an alternate shark-jumping moment would be when they decided to make any aspect of Broly canon, so basically the moment they introduced Kale.

[precita]

The reason people don't care what Heroes or the other videogames do is because it doesn't matter, it's all non-canon "for fun" stories. It's like getting mad at the original 13 DBZ movies, what happens in them doesn't really affect anything so it's harmless.

Super on the other hand is billed as a canon continuation to DBZ and the manga, so what happens in Super "matters" whether people like it or not. It's official canon, and unlike something like GT, I don't see Super ever being disregarded 10+ years from now like GT is due to Toriyama's involvement.

[PurestEvil]

The reason people don't care what Heroes or the other videogames do is because it doesn't matter, it's all non-canon "for fun" stories. It's like getting mad at the original 13 DBZ movies, what happens in them doesn't really affect anything so it's harmless.

Super on the other hand is billed as a canon continuation to DBZ and the manga, so what happens in Super "matters" whether people like it or not. It's official canon, and unlike something like GT, I don't see Super ever being disregarded 10+ years from now like GT is due to Toriyama's involvement.

I rather GT's canonicity over Super's, even if GT is kind of broken too.

[The Undying]

...I feel like some of you guys have rather unconvincing examples of what "jumping the shark" is. By the reasoning outlined ITT, you would have complained profusely if Toriyama's run ended with the 23rd Budokai and then modern DB started with Raditz. I see posters listing off things they're not personally fond of, but otherwise feel perfectly in line with Dragon Ball and Toriyama's way of writing it in particular.

For me, Dragon Ball jumps the shark when it butchers the elements that give it its identity in the first place. That primarily comes down to its characterization, tone, and worldview. GT does this in spades. Z movies from the 90's are arguably worse, but could at least be dismissed as side flicks. It was lost in the weeds years before Battle of Gods, but picked back up when the one guy who created it and understands it more than anyone became more intimately involved again.

But I feel like the term has, in general, lost any substance the audience could provide it with. It's just a lazy substitute for "things I don't like" now.

[Thani]

I kind of agree with Undying here. As the TvTropes page point out:

"Jumping the Shark is the moment when an established long-running series changes in a significant manner. This can range from something relatively small, like the introduction of a new gimmick, to something that totally changes the show, like a Genre Shift. The point is that the show feels like it has to update in order to stay fresh. But it usually has the opposite effect — the viewers can see through it and realize that the show has finally run out of ideas. It's reached its peak, it'll never be the same again, and it's all downhill from here. In other words, it's Ruined Forever."

You can argue that RoF was a jumping the shark moment in the "ran out of ideas" point, but honestly, it wasn't anything that new. It didn't change anything about the show, as well. Even Beerus, with the introduction of Gods of Destruction, God Ki and the other universes, did nothing to change the tone of the show itself - it did present a new gimmick, but as far as I could see at the time, it was mostly a welcome addition.

If I were to argue a moment of "jumping the shark", it would be the sudden downer ending of the Future Trunks Arc, with Zamasu effectively pulling a phyrric victory from the heroes. DB NEVER had an arc ending in such a depressing note, so it can be argued that the tone of the show changed completely in that final episode - and even then, Whis came in and changed the tone back to normal anyway.

Honestly, I can't really identify a true "jumping the shark" moment in modern DB. The new transformations are nothing new, we all already expected them to come anyway. Goku "outperforming" people stronger than him is subjective, as is other characters performing better than what one believes they should, so it can't really count as said moment.

Well, just my 2 cents.