Goten or Tien? Who was more mistreated in Super?

[DestructoDisc]

Before I start this topic I want to wish everyone who will read this a happy new year! I hope only good things will happen to you and your loved ones this year!

So, Tien and Goten in Super were arguably the most mistreated characters in Super if you ask me, but who was more mistreated?

Tien appeared more than Goten, but never really did anything relevant besides beating up some nameless Freeza soldiers. He got beaten up by Roshi, bullied by base Gohan, beaten up by Frost in the manga before he can lay a finger on anyone in the ToP, beaten up by Tagoma, beaten up by Beerus, beaten up by that Magetta guy in the Moro arc, beaten up by that lizard dude, man did this guy take so many beatings. Chiaotzu was more relevant in the Moro arc than he was. Back in the day Tien vs Krillin was a big debate, but now thanks to Super, everyone knows that Krillin is stronger. At least in the anime he took out Universe 2's forgettable sniper that i'm sure 80% of the fandom doesn't even know the name of.

Tien got many beatings but Goten pretty much got no fights at all. Truth be told, I don't remember him fighting anyone in Super besides those space bandits in that filler arc nobody likes. He also fought a giant snake in the first episode I believe. It's a shame cause I think Goten had the potential to be an interesting character with him being Goku's son and all, but he never really had anything going for him in Z, and Super just made him 10 times more forgettable. And the worst thing about his usage in Super is that he was completely irrelevant in the Goku Black arc. This is the arc where FUTURE TRUNKS returned, and I don't remember him ever having a single interaction with Goten. Shame. I wanted to see how Goten would get along with the future version of his butt buddy.

So, who do you think was more mistreated? Imo, it was Goten. At least the Ls Tien got in Super were memorable. Goten didn't do a single memorable thing in Super for me.

[Cipher]

Tenshinhan is inarguably a more relevant character than Goten in both versions of Super, which is a bit weird.

[Yuji]

Tenshinhan is inarguably a more relevant character than Goten in both versions of Super, which is a bit weird.

Not surprising, considering the placement of Super. If Toriyama's intent really is to avoid working with an aged cast, then shining a spotlight on Goten, who'd be sure to grow in height if he were more plot relevant, would gradually work up to the aged cast of EoZ (it's also slowly approaching it now, of course, at least in theory, but the aesthetics remain stagnant). Add to that the fact that both Toei and Toyotaro have a penchant for fanservice, and it's no wonder Tenshinhan is more relevant.

Personally, I've always felt that Tenshinhan and Chaozu should have been retired after the Saiyan arc. Like Yamcha, I feel like their treatment in post-Namek material has been a bit mean-spirited (outside of the tiny tidbits of action during the Moro arc, I suppose, but that whole segment felt like a meta apology for the way in which these characters have been treated). Since they were always reclusive hermits, their exclusion from post-Namek, post-Cell or even post-Boo arc material would make perfect sense. His inclusion in the Tournament of Power specifically feels strange, considering how much every character adds to that arc thematically (in the manga); he's the odd man out.

To the topic at hand: Tenshinhan's treatment as a ragdoll in the Super anime is amusing in how far the character has fallen, though I think he was just unfortunate to be handled by writers in quick succession who clearly didn't hold the character in high regard.

[Matches Malone]

Tien by far, as this is someone who went from being Goku's previous rival and relevant main character to just being in the background.

[Cipher]

Tien by far, as this is someone who went from being Goku's previous rival and relevant main character to just being in the background.

All of DB post 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai has got to be a tough read waiting for Tenshinhan to pick his rival role back up.

Add to that the fact that both Toei and Toyotaro have a penchant for fanservice, and it's no wonder Tenshinhan is more relevant.

I was going to protest the notion that Toyotaro had ever used Tenshinhan for fanservice, but then I remembered that the middle of the Moro arc exists.

[Matches Malone]

All of DB post 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai has got to be a tough read waiting for Tenshinhan to pick his rival role back up.

His role definitely reduced as time went on, but he was still a respected fighter until the end of the Cell arc. Even in the Buu arc which had the least of him, he still managed to have a cool scene when he stood up to Buu.

[precita]

It's weird how little Trunks/Goten do in Super. Kid Trunks at least gets some development in the Zamasu arc and interactions with his Future counterpart and the Pilaf gang, so he at least gets something.

Tenshinhan got screwed out of at least one episode to himself in the TOP whereas everyone else including Krillin got that. Tien still took out 3 fighters if I remember right (although one was held by Roshi), so he didn't do too shabby even if he was the worst treated main character in the TOP

[ChronoTwigger]

-Sir, we need some kid.
-What?
-Kid. With Gohan grown up, there'snt a kid figure around anymore, and you know the 7th prophecy.
-"Thou shall include a kid character the whole time or plagues will spread..."
-Right. So, what we'll do?
-....mmmmgotcha. KID Trunks.
*clap clap clap*
--Well done sir. But apparently the prophecy got a clause.
-*groan* A CLAUSE?
-Yeah. "Thou shall include a GOKU CLONE kid all the time"
-Arrrrgh. So what? Goku doesn't even know how to kiss, Gohan came out of nowhere and we don't have any other fatherly figure to associate...
-Sure.
-I hate such stuff. Ok, let's have a second son pop out of nowhere, he does play with kid Trunks and they're left on their own.
-Kids will like this. They could also fight, why not.
-Yeah yeah, they can fight. Who care.
-Sir, another issue, sir.
-Don't bother me to give a personality to that kid, please.
-No, is about Tien ShinHan.
-Who?
-The triclope.
-There was a triclope around...? Ahhhhah. He wasn't dead? Under that thing... Blown up... minced by ... no wait. Lava. Drenched by lava. I was sure of that.
-No, sir. The guy is here and should star in the show.
-What I was thinking when devising such absurd dude. I mean, three eyed evil flying kung fu fighter. Bohf, put him around and have him get bashed.
-What about character fans.
-Oh, yeah, character fans.... pfffffAHAHAHAHA
-AHAHAHAH
-"You can marry my daughter, but... maybe are you a Tien fan? Horrible b*stard, get out of my house!"
-"Mom, dad, sit down. I should confess. I'm a Tien fan. That's my true nature. You don't respect me!"
-Ahahahah
-Ahahaha ohgod, sometime I feel stupid creating this franchise. So, now about Granolla the Trunks clone.... some words?

[DestructoDisc]

Tien still took out 3 fighters if I remember right (although one was held by Roshi), so he didn't do too shabby even if he was the worst treated main character in the TOP

He only took out 2. One with Roshi's help, and another one by sacrificing himself, eventhough he could've still stayed on the arena, but the writers we're like "fuck logic, we need this guy out of here already". In the manga he didn't eliminate anyone and was already eliminated in the 2nd chapter I believe. Even in the Moro arc he was treated worse than Chiaotzu and Yamcha.

[TobyS]

Manga ten grabs the owned kids out of the sea, possibly saving them from drowning. He doesn't feel the need to embarrass himself against Beerus.

He beats a tonne of Freeza force guys and then helps summon Goku.

Ten furthered the theme of Goku's connections and trust in and by the dragon team making him better then Jiren and the pride troopers.

He was knocked out by frost but frost is incredibly powerful. If he and Kuririn weren't there Roshi would have been knocked out before he could impart his lessons to Goku. Goten and Trunks would have run off on their own and been eliminated even earlier.

In Moro he beats some goons, holds a powerful metalman foe at bay until Chaozu remembers his weakness.

He then saves Yamcha and with the two of them holds off a for until Goku arrives. His wording implies they might of won (he never gets as far as a kikoho)

He then donates his energy which keeps Goku from getting crushed until Uubs ki is there. He's the second to volunteer saving Goku before all dying together.

He later opens a martial arts school if he hasn't already.

He looks pretty good in my opinion you just have to lower your expectations lol.

Goten isn't treated at all really. And good, those kids are lazy and boring. It's not buu anymore, they can afford to let the kids be kids.

Ten is thus treated better and or worse depending on your perspective.

[super michael]

Goten was treated worse than Tien, since the only thing Goten did was being forbidden like these examples:

• RoF = Forbidden

• U6 vs U7 = Forbidden

• Future Trunks time line = Forbidden

• ToP = Forbidden and kept secret

• Broly = Forbidden and kept secret

• Moro = Forbidden and kept secret

Goten is even forbidden from sparring with his own father Goku. Goten is forbidden from training with Vegeta and Whis. Goten is forbidden to join any battle or train with any professional. He is forbidden from knowing any dangers and keeping any danger secret from him, like the invasion on earth.

Tien is allowed to do whatever he wants, he has his own dojo and students. Tien had so many battles in RoF, before ToP, during ToP and in the Moro chapter.
Goten wanted to go to Whis with Goku to get Super strong, but Chi Chi didn't allow that. When Goten and Goku got away from Chi Chi, Chi Chi alerted Bulma to stop Goten.

We don't watch Dragon Ball to see characters forbidden 100%, we see Dragon Ball for the action. Imagine if Gohan was 100% forbidden that would have been boring.

Then there is the problem that Goten doesn't age one bit, when Goku grew from each tournament. Compare Goku from 21st Martial Art Tournament to 22nd Martial Art Tournament and you see the growth.
Compare Goten from Buu Saga to Moro Chapter and there is no growth.


In EOZ Goku and Vegeta mentions Goten got lazy due to the peace time on earth, but in DBS we see that isn't true at all. He was lied and kept secrets so he does not join any battle. We see that he want to train, but he is forbidden.

Some may say that Goten and Trunks acts like brats or maybe their fusion, however there is a thing called character development. Every character in Dragon Ball got character development, why should they be the exception? Why should they be the only one to get forbidden, when other does stupid things and worse.

Goku stupidity got Future Trunks time line erased. Buu falling asleep in a test and making Beerus angry was stupid of him and not taking his fight seriously. Lets not forget Vegeta helping Cell by protecting him from Trunks and Buu by getting possessed on purpose and killing thousands to force Goku to fight him. Lets not forget Vegeta and Goku destroying the potara.

Edit this is my first post here, I was checking if there was a introduction thread but I couldn't find it.

[BWri]

Tenshinhan is inarguably a more relevant character than Goten in both versions of Super, which is a bit weird.

I think this is a debate of active mistreatment vs. aggressive indifference. I think, for Tien, at least he got to do some cool stuff in RoF and the Moro arc. And the anime threw him something of a bone during the ToP. Goten has basically nothing and they actually did make him more unlikable in one of the slice of life episodes.

Tien has some character development too in the anime with his dojo.
Goten received the tiniest dose of development, since he's shown to be "growing up" in the anime since he's grown out of his Saiyaman enjoyment phase.

I would say Tien was damaged in a few of his anime appearances, while Goten is simply neglected, but overall, it looks like Tien has been treated better just by virtue of being used and doing ... something. That's odd to me because it just feels like Tien is being mistreated the worst out of everyone.

[super michael]

Tenshinhan is inarguably a more relevant character than Goten in both versions of Super, which is a bit weird.

I think this is a debate of active mistreatment vs. aggressive indifference. I think, for Tien, at least he got to do some cool stuff in RoF and the Moro arc. And the anime threw him something of a bone during the ToP. Goten has basically nothing and they actually did make him more unlikable in one of the slice of life episodes.

Tien has some character development too in the anime with his dojo.
Goten received the tiniest dose of development, since he's shown to be "growing up" in the anime since he's grown out of his Saiyaman enjoyment phase.

I would say Tien was damaged in a few of his anime appearances, while Goten is simply neglected, but overall, it looks like Tien has been treated better just by virtue of being used and doing ... something. That's odd to me because it just feels like Tien is being mistreated the worst out of everyone.

Gotenks as a SSJ3 couldn't do anything to Copy Base Vegeta. Tien feats are beyond SSJ3 Gotenks, which is horrible writing. The writing is so horrible that the writers had to confirm that the humans are weaker than Goten and Trunks.

Goten and Tien struggled against a normal earth snake, that is worse than anything Tien did. Then after in RoF and after it was just horrible writing for Goten and Trunks.

[Kagari]

Goten. He might be the most neglected son of a main character in any manga/anime.

[EGonzo]

Add to that the fact that both Toei and Toyotaro have a penchant for fanservice, and it's no wonder Tenshinhan is more relevant.

I was going to protest the notion that Toyotaro had ever used Tenshinhan for fanservice, but then I remembered that the middle of the Moro arc exists.
[/quote]

Wasn't Tien the only one who didn't beat his opponent in the arc? Or at least the only who didn't make any headway in the fight?

[TobyS]

Add to that the fact that both Toei and Toyotaro have a penchant for fanservice, and it's no wonder Tenshinhan is more relevant.

I was going to protest the notion that Toyotaro had ever used Tenshinhan for fanservice, but then I remembered that the middle of the Moro arc exists.

Wasn't Tien the only one who didn't beat his opponent in the arc? Or at least the only who didn't make any headway in the fight?
[/quote]

They fought a metal man who's potentially mageta tier, not getting instagibbed is a feat.

Chaozu just remembered the weakeness first.

He pretty much saves Yamcha and the three hold out till Goku arrives.

He doesn't look bad he's just unfortunate with match ups there.

[Lord Beerus]

Tenshinhan and it's not even close.

Goten was as one note as a character could be. He was the bog standard "child-like" character with zero intrigue or nuance and his only unique quirk was being one half of a gimmick character (Gotenks).

Tenshinhan had a great background, one of the best character arcs in all of Dragon Ball, a wonderfully unique fighting style and served as the antagonist for one of Dragon Ball's major. The Demon King Piccolo arc even teases the idea of him becoming a major character for the fore-sable future, with him taking centre stage and learning the Mafuba so that he can fight Demon King Piccolo... then it's all downhill after that.

He majorly fuck ups by bringing a broken rice cooker to fight Demon King Piccolo, making his training of the Mafuba technique pointless, gets nearly killed by one of King Piccolo's generic mooks, get handily beaten by Goku at the 23rd WMAT, dies in vain against Nappa, does nothing during the Namek/Freeza, is ineffective from prevent Cell from absorbing #18 and gets knocked out from one kick by Majin Boo.

Tenshinhan goes from major rival to supporting character to background character to literal prop WAY too fast.

[super michael]

Tenshinhan and it's not even close.

Goten was as one note as a character could be. He was the bog standard "child-like" character with zero intrigue or nuance and his only unique quirk was being one half of a gimmick character (Gotenks).

Tenshinhan had a great background, one of the best character arcs in all of Dragon Ball, a wonderfully unique fighting style and served as the antagonist for one of Dragon Ball's major. The Demon King Piccolo arc even teases the idea of him becoming a major character for the fore-sable future, with him taking centre stage and learning the Mafuba so that he can fight Demon King Piccolo... then it's all downhill after that.

He majorly fuck ups by bringing a broken rice cooker to fight Demon King Piccolo, making his training of the Mafuba technique pointless, gets nearly killed by one of King Piccolo's generic mooks, get handily beaten by Goku at the 23rd WMAT, dies in vain against Nappa, does nothing during the Namek/Freeza, is ineffective from prevent Cell from absorbing #18 and gets knocked out from one kick by Majin Boo.

Tenshinhan goes from major rival to supporting character to background character to literal prop WAY too fast.

You know character development exist right? Tien went from completely evil to one of the good guys. Now tell me why is it that Goten can't get character development? Even Chaiotzu was in the war, even though he is a complete weakling.
Heck Bulma ordered Mr Satan to protect her against strong aliens, instead of calling Trunks to protect her. When Mr Satan starts to shines more than Goten and Trunks, that shows there is something wrong.

In EOZ Goku and Vegeta claims that their sons are lazy, which we see in DBS that is a complete lie. The adults doesn't let Goten fight, train or know of any danger on earth.

What DBS has proven is Goten has a bad family that doesn't trust him and doesn't let him do anything he wishes, then when he gets lazy then his family starts to force him to fight.