Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:13 pm

Well, 90% of people I know don-t care of DB, DBZ or DBS.

As a writer, I had a very hard time to script Goku differently, due...
A: no motivation ("being stronger" is not a motivation, is a goal)
B: plots ARE less serious, that was my previous point. Goku fight Dracula... but the fight is tense and carved in a more dramatical context. Here people JUST FIGHT for NO REASON. The only arc that got a motivation was... set in another timeline. So...
C: Super, despite how much we can love it, sucks. Sucks on a various set of degrees. Rushed production, aimless storyboards, hollow characters...

Dragon Ball is NOT serious anymore, in the sense that no one care, despite old time fans, about it. People just want to purchase cards, toys and stuff and if Goku is Hamlet or Jago or Peter Wenkmann, no one actually care as long as his hairs change colour and "this opponent is strrrroooongggg".
Giving him a silly characterization is the only way left for giving him a characterization. At least one.
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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:15 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:38 pm
could have an interest in bringing back Trunks' timeline)
Wouldn't that bring back Infinite Zamasu though? He became one with the future Universe 7 and was expanding. Maybe that's why they never even try to bring back that timeline.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:57 am

super michael wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:57 pm
In the anime Toei did everything possible to make Goku as stupid and unlikable as possible, but the question is why. Toei never made Goku look stupid in the past, so why make him extremely stupid now. The same applies to Chi Chi. Basically any knowledge or character development they had, Toei would throw them away.

Here are Goku examples:

DBS Goku = So what if you die King Kai, you are already dead. This is when recruiting C17.
DBS Goku = Goku doesn't realize someone doing something to slow him down. Chiaotzu uses magic.
DBS Goku = Goku the only one to not know Monaka is weak.
DBS Goku = Goku the only one who doesn't know that Beerus was lying.
DBS Goku = Can't tell he is fighting Beerus in a costume, even though the ki is of Beerus, costume breaking and no masking scent. Goku can hear their voice, smell their scent and Yamcha spilled the beans but nothing Goku is brainless.
DBS Goku = Forgets senzu beans, urn and talisman, which lead to Future Trunks time line being erased, since Mafuba was useless.
DBS Goku = Doesn't care that Vegeta was disappearing.
DBS Goku = Enjoys dropping his guard too much even when he knows he is the target and can get attacked at any time. His guard is so down that he can't react at all.
DBS Goku = Unable to keep secrets stated by Bulma.
DBS Goku = Forces anyone to fight him, even if they have no desire or just plain don't want to fight such as Monaka, Zamasu, Gohan, etc.
DBS Goku = doesn’t acknowledge any mistakes he does
DBS Goku = When Jiren ask Goku what would he wish for, Goku says that he doesn't know even though he saw the other Universe erased.
DBS Goku = Goku was annoying Whis and being impatient, even though Whis agreed to train him. Goku got so annoying that Whis considered not training him.
that's almost totally untrue and you're making a very unfair comparison ...

--because he knows that nothing will happen to him ... he does not die in the other world
-he didn't even realize when he was a child DB OG
-also he did not realize that monaka is weak in the main arc either manga or anime
-he also did not realize that roshi was jackie chun or that he really believed that Mr satan dodges buu's blows
-if you question a joke episode .. why don't you better not question that goku is so stupid that he needs to get a driving license even though he can fly ....
-he also believed that a monkey was king kai in the manga even though he can feel the ki
-goku in the original manga for the emotion of fighting he forgot the important warning of trunks (place and day) and without piccolo they would be lost
-he really didn't know about the situation ... and he fought the fake vegeta like the original vegeta would but anyway those chapters in general are bad and not only goku but also vegeta
-and like that it goes against the same general plot that involves goku being overconfident .. however part of his lesson was to learn from this
-exactly which one ... we're talking about the same goku who told bulma "have a healthy baby"
-goku forces zamasu to fight to check if he was black and that is verified when whis asks him about his ki
-that is a valid point but goku although he recognizes them ... never learn from them like the fact of relying on children to kill the villain
-of course a whole team from the evil universe that went against him and that seriously harmed his son in addition to trying to sabotage them before the tournament ... at the end of the tournament ..., goku is clear about his intentions to revive everyone because he met the other universes to which he promised to fight again hit, caulifla, kefla , jiren etc
-goku bothered roshi to train him

we can also remember things ...
-goku gave a zensu bean to cell ...
-goku allowed dr gero to build the androids despite bulma's idea ...
-goku decided to stop taking the heart medicine ... because he was confident that he felt good .. that is stupid
-He put gohan in danger even though she should know that his son doesn't like to fight ... and he repeated that mistake with gotenks etc etc

As always, the super moments are exaggerated and the z moments are hidden because they only remember what they want

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by super michael » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:45 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:57 am
that's almost totally untrue and you're making a very unfair comparison ...

--because he knows that nothing will happen to him ... he does not die in the other world
-he didn't even realize when he was a child DB OG
-also he did not realize that monaka is weak in the main arc either manga or anime
-he also did not realize that roshi was jackie chun or that he really believed that Mr satan dodges buu's blows
-if you question a joke episode .. why don't you better not question that goku is so stupid that he needs to get a driving license even though he can fly ....
-he also believed that a monkey was king kai in the manga even though he can feel the ki
-goku in the original manga for the emotion of fighting he forgot the important warning of trunks (place and day) and without piccolo they would be lost
-he really didn't know about the situation ... and he fought the fake vegeta like the original vegeta would but anyway those chapters in general are bad and not only goku but also vegeta
-and like that it goes against the same general plot that involves goku being overconfident .. however part of his lesson was to learn from this
-exactly which one ... we're talking about the same goku who told bulma "have a healthy baby"
-goku forces zamasu to fight to check if he was black and that is verified when whis asks him about his ki
-that is a valid point but goku although he recognizes them ... never learn from them like the fact of relying on children to kill the villain
-of course a whole team from the evil universe that went against him and that seriously harmed his son in addition to trying to sabotage them before the tournament ... at the end of the tournament ..., goku is clear about his intentions to revive everyone because he met the other universes to which he promised to fight again hit, caulifla, kefla , jiren etc
-goku bothered roshi to train him

we can also remember things ...
-goku gave a zensu bean to cell ...
-goku allowed dr gero to build the androids despite bulma's idea ...
-goku decided to stop taking the heart medicine ... because he was confident that he felt good .. that is stupid
-He put gohan in danger even though she should know that his son doesn't like to fight ... and he repeated that mistake with gotenks etc etc

As always, the super moments are exaggerated and the z moments are hidden because they only remember what they want
- Vegeta was in Kaioshin world dead and it was stated that he would cease to exist if he dies. The fact that dead Goku and Vegeta are allowed to be in Kaioshin world, means that is in Other World. Goku isn't allow to go to earth when dead.
- The one who didn't realize there was cheating was Tien, Tien thought that Goku was making excuses that is until one of Tien attack did more damage then expected.
- The anime is worse, no matter how obvious since there is no masking masking scent, sensing ki, costume breaking and Yamcha spilling the beans but Goku didn't figure it out.
- Master Roshi put effort into his disguise and planned it good with Nam to fool Goku and his student. Although for Buu you make a good point.
- Goku learned to drive thanks to Chi Chi who wanted Goku to be like a normal person.
- Goku master was a cat Korin, so why would Goku question if he is a monkey? Plus this monkey had no problem with 10x gravity something no normal monkey can handle. This monkey was stronger than Goku.
- Excellent point about Goku forgetting the information for the cyborgs. I agree with you here.
- Goku could just mind read Krillin, just like Goku did on Namek to not waste time. Goku knew that Vegeta was disappearing, yet Goku wasted time by asking pointless question and holding back to waste more time.
- In DBZ Goku was caught of guard by Jeice, but Goku could react. In DBS they made him regress by not being able to react in ToP at all.
- Excellent point about Zamasu, but no excuse for forcing Gohan and Monaka to fight him.
- Goku didn't force Master Roshi to train him and also Master Roshi offered to train Goku. Goku was patient to train with Master Roshi, unlike in DBS were Goku was impatient to get Whis to train him, even though Whis already agreed to train him. Goku acted like a spoiled brat to Whis for no reason, especially when Whis was eating in peace.

I forgot to mention one thing. Goku got upset and forced C17 to let the girls transform in the ToP, this was incredibly stupid. On Namek Goku wanted to beat Freeza at his best to humiliate him for killing Krillin.

- I agree about Goku not stopping Dr Gero was a bad decision.
- I agree about Goku giving Cell a senzu bean was a bad decision.
- I disagree about the medicine, Future Trunks told Goku not to use the medicine until the heart virus happens. Goku didn't get the heart virus until he flew with the androids. I believe Gohan mentions there was no sign of the virus.
- There was no sign that Gohan didn't like to fight when he was on Namek and in the ROSAT, beside Goku doesn't have super hearing like Piccolo to hear what Gohan told Cell.
- In the Buu Saga Goten and Trunks were earth last hope when Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were dead or assumed dead in Gohan case.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Tai Lung » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:37 am

super michael wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:45 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:57 am
that's almost totally untrue and you're making a very unfair comparison ...

--because he knows that nothing will happen to him ... he does not die in the other world
-he didn't even realize when he was a child DB OG
-also he did not realize that monaka is weak in the main arc either manga or anime
-he also did not realize that roshi was jackie chun or that he really believed that Mr satan dodges buu's blows
-if you question a joke episode .. why don't you better not question that goku is so stupid that he needs to get a driving license even though he can fly ....
-he also believed that a monkey was king kai in the manga even though he can feel the ki
-goku in the original manga for the emotion of fighting he forgot the important warning of trunks (place and day) and without piccolo they would be lost
-he really didn't know about the situation ... and he fought the fake vegeta like the original vegeta would but anyway those chapters in general are bad and not only goku but also vegeta
-and like that it goes against the same general plot that involves goku being overconfident .. however part of his lesson was to learn from this
-exactly which one ... we're talking about the same goku who told bulma "have a healthy baby"
-goku forces zamasu to fight to check if he was black and that is verified when whis asks him about his ki
-that is a valid point but goku although he recognizes them ... never learn from them like the fact of relying on children to kill the villain
-of course a whole team from the evil universe that went against him and that seriously harmed his son in addition to trying to sabotage them before the tournament ... at the end of the tournament ..., goku is clear about his intentions to revive everyone because he met the other universes to which he promised to fight again hit, caulifla, kefla , jiren etc
-goku bothered roshi to train him

we can also remember things ...
-goku gave a zensu bean to cell ...
-goku allowed dr gero to build the androids despite bulma's idea ...
-goku decided to stop taking the heart medicine ... because he was confident that he felt good .. that is stupid
-He put gohan in danger even though she should know that his son doesn't like to fight ... and he repeated that mistake with gotenks etc etc

As always, the super moments are exaggerated and the z moments are hidden because they only remember what they want
- Vegeta was in Kaioshin world dead and it was stated that he would cease to exist if he dies. The fact that dead Goku and Vegeta are allowed to be in Kaioshin world, means that is in Other World. Goku isn't allow to go to earth when dead.
- The one who didn't realize there was cheating was Tien, Tien thought that Goku was making excuses that is until one of Tien attack did more damage then expected.
- The anime is worse, no matter how obvious since there is no masking masking scent, sensing ki, costume breaking and Yamcha spilling the beans but Goku didn't figure it out.
- Master Roshi put effort into his disguise and planned it good with Nam to fool Goku and his student. Although for Buu you make a good point.
- Goku learned to drive thanks to Chi Chi who wanted Goku to be like a normal person.
- Goku master was a cat Korin, so why would Goku question if he is a monkey? Plus this monkey had no problem with 10x gravity something no normal monkey can handle. This monkey was stronger than Goku.
- Excellent point about Goku forgetting the information for the cyborgs. I agree with you here.
- Goku could just mind read Krillin, just like Goku did on Namek to not waste time. Goku knew that Vegeta was disappearing, yet Goku wasted time by asking pointless question and holding back to waste more time.
- In DBZ Goku was caught of guard by Jeice, but Goku could react. In DBS they made him regress by not being able to react in ToP at all.
- Excellent point about Zamasu, but no excuse for forcing Gohan and Monaka to fight him.
- Goku didn't force Master Roshi to train him and also Master Roshi offered to train Goku. Goku was patient to train with Master Roshi, unlike in DBS were Goku was impatient to get Whis to train him, even though Whis already agreed to train him. Goku acted like a spoiled brat to Whis for no reason, especially when Whis was eating in peace.

I forgot to mention one thing. Goku got upset and forced C17 to let the girls transform in the ToP, this was incredibly stupid. On Namek Goku wanted to beat Freeza at his best to humiliate him for killing Krillin.

- I agree about Goku not stopping Dr Gero was a bad decision.
- I agree about Goku giving Cell a senzu bean was a bad decision.
- I disagree about the medicine, Future Trunks told Goku not to use the medicine until the heart virus happens. Goku didn't get the heart virus until he flew with the androids. I believe Gohan mentions there was no sign of the virus.
- There was no sign that Gohan didn't like to fight when he was on Namek and in the ROSAT, beside Goku doesn't have super hearing like Piccolo to hear what Gohan told Cell.
- In the Buu Saga Goten and Trunks were earth last hope when Goku, Gohan and Vegeta were dead or assumed dead in Gohan case.
-they are different places
-goku realized that something strange is happening with his paralyzed body but he did not realize that it was chiaotzu who did it
the same in DB Super
-his voice, appearance, age, smell and techniques were from master roshi and that is becoming more obvious even time and that goku does not realize it .. is part of the joke ... again part of DB's absurd humor
-taking into account that goku and piccolo need to be considered normal people?
-Are you saying that bubbles is stronger than goku for supporting a gravity x10? The whole situation is comical since he doesn't even question that he can't speak
-I had already said that in that I can agree with you but only taking into account that Vegeta was not in his personality either, asking his copy not to let himself win
-jeice was inferior in every way to goku ... the majority who take goku by surprise is superior to him in his base form
-ok but with monaka and gohan they were friendly fights
-I remember that roshi is entertaining with his television and goku literally screams in his ear to hear him
-goku waited for frieza to use his 100% power yes .. he still I leave him alive but the difference is crucial ..
Frieza was already dangerous before that and had done bad things
the girls without that were not dangerous so goku looking to have fun with new opponents should not be a bad thing ... it is part of his personality just like he played with other opponents before
-he could always take it as a precaution ... I think yamcha and chichi also took the medicine
-good point but goku already learned the lesson with gohan ... and even so he left the battle against buu to children who see fights as a game even though according to his words he could defeat fat buu

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Kataphrut » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:41 am

super michael wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:48 pm
Digimon Adventure Reboot is done right, even though it was done by Toei. But Toei puts hardly any effort to DBS.
You're wrong on that first count there, matey. The Digimon reboot has been atrocious. All it has going for it over the original is better animation.

There are like, two different threads going on this board at the moment about whether or not Goku is characterised as being more stupid and irresponsible in DBS than he was in DBZ. And from what I've seen, there's enough examples on both sides to say...not really? He's been doing stupid and irresponsible things for ages, it hasn't gotten any different.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by super michael » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:31 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:37 am
-they are different places
-goku realized that something strange is happening with his paralyzed body but he did not realize that it was chiaotzu who did it
the same in DB Super
-his voice, appearance, age, smell and techniques were from master roshi and that is becoming more obvious even time and that goku does not realize it .. is part of the joke ... again part of DB's absurd humor
-taking into account that goku and piccolo need to be considered normal people?
-Are you saying that bubbles is stronger than goku for supporting a gravity x10? The whole situation is comical since he doesn't even question that he can't speak
-I had already said that in that I can agree with you but only taking into account that Vegeta was not in his personality either, asking his copy not to let himself win
-jeice was inferior in every way to goku ... the majority who take goku by surprise is superior to him in his base form
-ok but with monaka and gohan they were friendly fights
-I remember that roshi is entertaining with his television and goku literally screams in his ear to hear him
-goku waited for frieza to use his 100% power yes .. he still I leave him alive but the difference is crucial ..
Frieza was already dangerous before that and had done bad things
the girls without that were not dangerous so goku looking to have fun with new opponents should not be a bad thing ... it is part of his personality just like he played with other opponents before
-he could always take it as a precaution ... I think yamcha and chichi also took the medicine
-good point but goku already learned the lesson with gohan ... and even so he left the battle against buu to children who see fights as a game even though according to his words he could defeat fat buu
Thanks for the images, I always thought that kaioshin world was in Other world. I didn't think they were in different locations. It is weird that dead Goku could go to Kaioshin world without permission but not to earth.

- In DB Goku knew someone was doing something to his body, which is why he accused Tien. Even if Goku didn't know it was Chiaotzu, he was on the right track. In DBS Goku has experienced first hand Chiaotzu magic, yet he didn't think that it was Tien or Chiaotzu doing.
- Your right about his voice, appearance and age, however smell and technique that I disagree. Master Roshi masked his scent with cologne and Master Roshi only showed his Kamehameha and nothing else. Master Roshi was able to trick Goku by saying he has a brother. Master Roshi put effort into tricking his students. Only Tien knows the truth about Master Roshi and Jackie Chan.
- That was Chi Chi desire to make both Goku and Piccolo seem normal, this was during the 3 years training for the Android.
- Seeing that Goku could hardly move in Kaio world and it took time for him to get faster than Bubble, then yes Bubble was superior at first. Although it was funny that Goku copied Bubbles.
- Good point about Jeice being nothing to Base Goku and in the ToP his opponent was stronger than his Base form.
- I don't believe Goku went for training in that episode you said, I think Goku went for food to eat at Master Roshi house. When Goku screamed at Master Roshi ear to get his attention, Master Roshi said he could help himself to the fridge. However Goku didn't turn into a pest unlike Goku with Whis, which we never saw Goku act like that ever.
- I agree with you about Freeza.
- Goku doesn't know how strong they would get when they transform and the universe was on the line. Goku interrupted King Piccolo and Reccoom special attack in the past. Heck at first Goku didn't allow Freeza to transform, that is until Freeza got some distant and desperately transformed and Goku let him.
- Your correct Yamcha did say to take the medicine, even though himself and Chi Chi didn't have any affect. So we have got Yamcha statement and Future Trunks which are different.
- We know that Goku could defeat Fat Buu, let say Goku choose to kill Fat Buu once the battle is over he has to return to Other World never to return to earth again. Then if another villain comes who would protect earth? There was no Goku, Gohan and Vegeta at all. Piccolo was considered a weakling along with all the earthlings. The next villain more powerful than Buu would have destroyed the earth.

Here is the video of Master Shen trying to kill Goku in his sleep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J-2j_D6xBI
Since Master Shen didn't mask his scent, then Goku recognize who that person was.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by super michael » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:59 pm

Here is another flaw in DBS, the character don't get older or look older at all except for Pan and Bra. Infact some character looks younger in DBS. Example characters like Goten, Trunks, Marron and Krillin looks younger than in the Buu Saga.

Before anyone mention Goku didn't grow, I would like to mention that Goku and Krillin did grow from tournament. Compare their 21st Martial Art Tournament to their 22nd Martial Art Tournament. Every character changed from tournament to tournament.

Goku = grew from tournament.
Krillin = grew from tournament.
Gohan = grew from each saga like Namek, Android, ROSAT and Buu Saga.
Future Trunks = at 14 years old looked like a normal teen.
Uppa = grew up normal.

However Goten and Trunks hasn't changed at all since their Buu Saga. There is no visible change at all.

I can't edit my previous post, so I had to make a new post.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:40 pm

Characters not properly aging isn't just Toei's fault. Toyotaro is equally to blame since he also doesn't bother aging anyone as well as Toriyama, obviously. No one seems to care about that. A nice charming trait of old Dragon Ball, lost because of nostalgia...

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Tai Lung » Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:17 pm

super michael wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:31 pm
Thanks for the images, I always thought that kaioshin world was in Other world. I didn't think they were in different locations. It is weird that dead Goku could go to Kaioshin world without permission but not to earth.

- In DB Goku knew someone was doing something to his body, which is why he accused Tien. Even if Goku didn't know it was Chiaotzu, he was on the right track. In DBS Goku has experienced first hand Chiaotzu magic, yet he didn't think that it was Tien or Chiaotzu doing.
- Your right about his voice, appearance and age, however smell and technique that I disagree. Master Roshi masked his scent with cologne and Master Roshi only showed his Kamehameha and nothing else. Master Roshi was able to trick Goku by saying he has a brother. Master Roshi put effort into tricking his students. Only Tien knows the truth about Master Roshi and Jackie Chan.
- That was Chi Chi desire to make both Goku and Piccolo seem normal, this was during the 3 years training for the Android.
- Seeing that Goku could hardly move in Kaio world and it took time for him to get faster than Bubble, then yes Bubble was superior at first. Although it was funny that Goku copied Bubbles.
- Good point about Jeice being nothing to Base Goku and in the ToP his opponent was stronger than his Base form.
- I don't believe Goku went for training in that episode you said, I think Goku went for food to eat at Master Roshi house. When Goku screamed at Master Roshi ear to get his attention, Master Roshi said he could help himself to the fridge. However Goku didn't turn into a pest unlike Goku with Whis, which we never saw Goku act like that ever.
- I agree with you about Freeza.
- Goku doesn't know how strong they would get when they transform and the universe was on the line. Goku interrupted King Piccolo and Reccoom special attack in the past. Heck at first Goku didn't allow Freeza to transform, that is until Freeza got some distant and desperately transformed and Goku let him.
- Your correct Yamcha did say to take the medicine, even though himself and Chi Chi didn't have any affect. So we have got Yamcha statement and Future Trunks which are different.
- We know that Goku could defeat Fat Buu, let say Goku choose to kill Fat Buu once the battle is over he has to return to Other World never to return to earth again. Then if another villain comes who would protect earth? There was no Goku, Gohan and Vegeta at all. Piccolo was considered a weakling along with all the earthlings. The next villain more powerful than Buu would have destroyed the earth.

Here is the video of Master Shen trying to kill Goku in his sleep:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J-2j_D6xBI
Since Master Shen didn't mask his scent, then Goku recognize who that person was.
It has long been explained that the dragon ball universe is much larger than ours and with many dimensions like the time room, the kaioshin realm is located in a different dimension

-In DBS goku realizes that ability but the joke is that goku is now strong that he barely feels it so only by raising his power cancels the ability of chiaotzu
-he can't disguise his sweat ...and kamehameha is a technique invented by master roshi
-They tricked goku with puar transforming into beerus and no .. what yamcha said did not serve to ruin that since goku assumed that he could be divided as majin buu
-his original intention was to train even is the first thing he says or yells at him ... then he worries about eating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZMlnFTLnoo
-Goku is more relaxed because he still had his transformations including the divine ones ...
Killing is also not allowed in the tournament and in the void dimension there was not much danger from destruction compared to
goku only had the kaioken (wear) which is a wear, namek could be destroyed and reccome went with the intentions to kill
-Goku always has a personality of wanting to make rivals and new friends in battles ... (other than villains)
-the dragon balls still exist ... they could literally revive gohan ... in fact they planned to revive them before goku returned to the other world

sweat in battle should still ... dissolve colonies

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:45 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:17 pm
It has long been explained that the dragon ball universe is much larger than ours and with many dimensions like the time room, the kaioshin realm is located in a different dimension

-In DBS goku realizes that ability but the joke is that goku is now strong that he barely feels it so only by raising his power cancels the ability of chiaotzu
-he can't disguise his sweat ...and kamehameha is a technique invented by master roshi
-They tricked goku with puar transforming into beerus and no .. what yamcha said did not serve to ruin that since goku assumed that he could be divided as majin buu
-his original intention was to train even is the first thing he says or yells at him ... then he worries about eating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZMlnFTLnoo
-Goku is more relaxed because he still had his transformations including the divine ones ...
Killing is also not allowed in the tournament and in the void dimension there was not much danger from destruction compared to
goku only had the kaioken (wear) which is a wear, namek could be destroyed and reccome went with the intentions to kill
-Goku always has a personality of wanting to make rivals and new friends in battles ... (other than villains)
-the dragon balls still exist ... they could literally revive gohan ... in fact they planned to revive them before goku returned to the other world

sweat in battle should still ... dissolve colonies
It is good to see even someone who has debate about for so long, there are things I didn't know.

- Good point
- Luckily for Master Roshi he made a good excuse about how Master Roshi was Jackie Chan brother.
- Puar didn't act or sound anything like Beerus. Heck Puar scent wasn't stated to be masked at all. Yamcha saying that Monaka was knocked out before the battle started should have given it away.
- So it seems Goku first intention was to eat and once he finished eating then he asked Master Roshi to train him. Master Roshi didn't notice Goku, which is why Goku yelled to get his attention. However with Whis no only did Whis pay attention to Goku, but he even agreed to train Goku. But that wasn't enought for Goku, he had to turn into a major pest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhGjiOoeLOk
Heck Whis even consider not training Goku, something that Goku never done before. No master ever found Goku annoying.
- Goku saw or heard even those without divine power were stronger than him, such as Toppo and Jiren. Losing means the end of the world/universe.
- I agree with this point.
- Actually they couldn't use the Dragon Balls for a couple of months, since the Dragon Balls were turned to stone due to reviving everyone. That is how Kibito was revived.
Grimlock wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 3:40 pm
Characters not properly aging isn't just Toei's fault. Toyotaro is equally to blame since he also doesn't bother aging anyone as well as Toriyama, obviously. No one seems to care about that. A nice charming trait of old Dragon Ball, lost because of nostalgia...
Your right that isn't Toei fault, I guess I am blaming the wrong person. However it is weird that Toei has Teen Goten and Teen Trunks design in GT, but they don't use it in DBS. It is when Pan shows Super Oozaru Goku a picture of them at the beach.
Kataphrut wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:41 am
super michael wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:48 pm
Digimon Adventure Reboot is done right, even though it was done by Toei. But Toei puts hardly any effort to DBS.
You're wrong on that first count there, matey. The Digimon reboot has been atrocious. All it has going for it over the original is better animation.

There are like, two different threads going on this board at the moment about whether or not Goku is characterised as being more stupid and irresponsible in DBS than he was in DBZ. And from what I've seen, there's enough examples on both sides to say...not really? He's been doing stupid and irresponsible things for ages, it hasn't gotten any different.
I guess your right about Digimon Adventure Reboot, the original Digimon is still way better except in animation.

If it is no problem can you tell me the name of these threads?

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:23 am

super michael wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:45 pm
Your right that isn't Toei fault, I guess I am blaming the wrong person.
No, you're halfway right. It is Toei's fault, just not theirs alone.

No one stands up and say "hey, a story set in this time period requires a few characters to look older than they were in Majin Buu saga. How are we going to handle it?". It's like, they don't talk to each other about certain details, they just accept each other's material/sent by Toriyama and go for it.
super michael wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:45 pm
However it is weird that Toei has Teen Goten and Teen Trunks design in GT, but they don't use it in DBS. It is when Pan shows Super Oozaru Goku a picture of them at the beach.
Oh yeah, nice memory. I'm looking at the image now and if I have to guess, based on Pan's, Bra's and Marron's hairstyles (compared to their current hairstyles in Dragon Ball Super), and Marron, Goten and Trunks looking a bit older and taller, that scene took place some time between AGE 781 and AGE 783.

We just hit AGE 781 with the latest saga in Dragon Ball Super. While it's too soon to tell, I highly doubt Toyotaro will portray those characters the way it should be, or at least the way they appear in that picture you mentioned. If he does, and if Toei eventually adapts it, they'll probably be obliged to also portray them as such, otherwise Toei would be the problem in this scenario.

It's high time for Chi-Chi to adopt that hairstyle and for Kuririn to let it grow. He'll sport grizzled hair in just a few years, anyway. It would be cool to see that difference.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Kataphrut » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:56 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:41 am
super michael wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:48 pm
Digimon Adventure Reboot is done right, even though it was done by Toei. But Toei puts hardly any effort to DBS.
You're wrong on that first count there, matey. The Digimon reboot has been atrocious. All it has going for it over the original is better animation.

There are like, two different threads going on this board at the moment about whether or not Goku is characterised as being more stupid and irresponsible in DBS than he was in DBZ. And from what I've seen, there's enough examples on both sides to say...not really? He's been doing stupid and irresponsible things for ages, it hasn't gotten any different.
super michael wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:48 pm
I guess your right about Digimon Adventure Reboot, the original Digimon is still way better except in animation.

If it is no problem can you tell me the name of these threads?
This one, and the one in general discussion titled 'Dub-fans, was there an adjustment period for you when Goku started to be portrayed correctly in DBS?'. Which started off trying to be all "hey dubbies, what do you think of Funimation portraying Goku all accurately in DBS compared to back when he was Mr Hope of the Universe?" but quickly turned into a discussion about accurate Goku in DBS being bad.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:01 pm

super michael wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:45 pm

It is good to see even someone who has debate about for so long, there are things I didn't know.

- Good point
- Luckily for Master Roshi he made a good excuse about how Master Roshi was Jackie Chan brother.
- Puar didn't act or sound anything like Beerus. Heck Puar scent wasn't stated to be masked at all. Yamcha saying that Monaka was knocked out before the battle started should have given it away.
- So it seems Goku first intention was to eat and once he finished eating then he asked Master Roshi to train him. Master Roshi didn't notice Goku, which is why Goku yelled to get his attention. However with Whis no only did Whis pay attention to Goku, but he even agreed to train Goku. But that wasn't enought for Goku, he had to turn into a major pest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhGjiOoeLOk
Heck Whis even consier not training Goku, something that Goku never done before. No master ever found Goku annoying.
- Goku saw or heard even those without divine power were stronger than him, such as Toppo and Jiren. Losing means the end of the world/universe.
- I agree with this point.
- Actually they couldn't use the Dragon Balls for a couple of months, since the Dragon Balls were turned to stone due to reviving everyone. That is how Kibito was revived.
-actually ... it was whis who spoke for him ... while puar (transformated) was far enough away for his voice and smell to be recognized
-yamcha had said that monaka had been knocked unconscious ... however most had convinced goku that he had strange powers and mind control ... so goku only assumed it was part of his power
-King kai has considered him annoying since he is dead because of him
-However, goku ever has taken risks to enjoy a good fight.
-he decided to play babidi's game instead of fighting all together as Shin suggested
-he started to play jan ken to take turns with vegeta to fight kid buu instead of doing it together
-he decided to wait for dr gero to build the androids instead of stopping him earlier
you like it or not, it is part of his personality because he trusts in his training to win and that is why he also waits for his opponents to fight with everything
goku enjoys the fights despite the danger .. examples
Andoid arc, Cell arc and Buu arc
- Dragon Balls of Namek ...

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by DBPirate » Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:10 pm

Personally, the only two points that bothered me were forgetting the Senzu and the Mafuba seal. The others were harmless gags imo and the writing for his character improved significantly in the Tournament of Power. I think it's weird to single out Chi-Chi as well.
Favorite sagas: Tien Shinhan (DB), Frieza (Z), Future Trunks (Super)
Favorite characters: Frieza, Future Trunks, Beerus, Android 17, Zamasu, Gohan

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by super michael » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:31 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:01 pm
-actually ... it was whis who spoke for him ... while puar (transformated) was far enough away for his voice and smell to be recognized
-yamcha had said that monaka had been knocked unconscious ... however most had convinced goku that he had strange powers and mind control ... so goku only assumed it was part of his power
-King kai has considered him annoying since he is dead because of him
-However, goku ever has taken risks to enjoy a good fight.
-he decided to play babidi's game instead of fighting all together as Shin suggested
-he started to play jan ken to take turns with vegeta to fight kid buu instead of doing it together
-he decided to wait for dr gero to build the androids instead of stopping him earlier
you like it or not, it is part of his personality because he trusts in his training to win and that is why he also waits for his opponents to fight with everything
goku enjoys the fights despite the danger .. examples
Andoid arc, Cell arc and Buu arc
- Dragon Balls of Namek ...
- Actually Puar was talking while transformed, here is the video https://www.crunchyroll.com/dragon-ball ... oku-724601 however your right about distance. Then later Goku flew down and was near everyone, which is when Yamcha spilled the beans. He was close enough everyone to hear their voice, smell their scent, sense their ki, etc.
- King Kai considered Goku choice bad to take Cell to his planet. However at the current point behaviour, Goku didn't force King Kai to train him. Being annoyed by something someone did in the past isn't the same as being annoying in the present.
- I agree with you there such as Freeza let him reach full power, destroying the potara and refusing to fight with Vegeta. As for not using SS3 Goku said why he didn't want to use it since he didn't know how it work in the living world.
- Correct about Babidi Space Ship, when they saw Gohan struggle they should have helped him.
- Goku said his reason for not wanting to kill Dr Gero before the 3 years, he said it would be mean since he hasn't done anything wrong yet. Chapter 336. Although Goku does say he wants to fight the Androids.
- I agree with you here.
- I agree with you here.
DBPirate wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 12:10 pm
Personally, the only two points that bothered me were forgetting the Senzu and the Mafuba seal. The others were harmless gags imo and the writing for his character improved significantly in the Tournament of Power. I think it's weird to single out Chi-Chi as well.
Chi Chi got huge development in Buu Saga, were she allowed her sons to fight or study. This development carried over to Yo Son Goku and BoG, then after RoF she regress a lot. Thanks to Chi Chi that is why Goten is pathetically weak in DBS.

Chi Chi doesn't allow Goten to train and fight. Goku has no say in what he can do with Goten when it comes to fighting and training.
With Gohan, Goku had a say in it if he could travel to Namek, train for the Androids, train in the ROSAT and fight in the Cell Games.

Thanks to Chi Chi we never see Goten develop, get stronger, more skillful, fuse, fight, etc. Goten even told his mum that he wants to get Super strong, but Chi Chi still forbids him.

Chi Chi said there was no bad guy, well there was no bad guy in the Future Android Saga and Future Goku Black time line, but that is how Future Gohan and Future Goten died for being weak. Future Gohan died by the Android since all the pros were dead to train him and Future Goku Black killed Chi Chi and Goten since they were weak.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by super michael » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:07 pm

Here something that DBS does worse than DB and DBZ, in DBS everyone can get to God tier just by weak training:

- Freeza beating Tagoma a weakling for four months and nothing else = beyond SSB Goku and Vegeta.
- Krillin training in normal gym = stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
- Buu training with Mr Satan = beyond Base Goku
- Master Roshi = unknown training.
- C17 by beating earth poacher = as strong as SSB Goku. Future C17 was around longer and he never surpassed SS2 Gohan.

Then power scale is another problem. One moment Berserk Kale >> SSB Goku Kamehameha, then another moment SS2 Goku > Controlled Kale who was stated to be stronger.

Then there is C17 holding back = SSB Goku, then in the Black Hole Base Goku >> C17 and C18.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:01 pm

super michael wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:07 pm
Here something that DBS does worse than DB and DBZ, in DBS everyone can get to God tier just by weak training:

- Freeza beating Tagoma a weakling for four months and nothing else = beyond SSB Goku and Vegeta.
- Krillin training in normal gym = stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
- Buu training with Mr Satan = beyond Base Goku
- Master Roshi = unknown training.
- C17 by beating earth poacher = as strong as SSB Goku. Future C17 was around longer and he never surpassed SS2 Gohan.

Then power scale is another problem. One moment Berserk Kale >> SSB Goku Kamehameha, then another moment SS2 Goku > Controlled Kale who was stated to be stronger.

Then there is C17 holding back = SSB Goku, then in the Black Hole Base Goku >> C17 and C18.
- Freeza never trained in his life, it wasn't really his sparring partner the culprit of his power up but himself, he had just that much untapped power.
- I don't know where you are getting this, but Krilin cannot compete with anyone above Z SS.
- Goku's base is a mess. But that was Toriyama's fault, making Freeza so OP in RoF and then nerfing U6 base Goku. Toei just followed up what RoF established but had to dial it down in the U6 and FT arc. The SSG absorbed in his base form in BoG didn't help either.
- Roshi and the pseudo UI is something I still can't swallow. His performance in the anime made more sense to me.
- This was explained in the manga, 17 was implied to have been training with the Cell Jrs, who've been living in that island.

Kale is a mess, yes. In the name of movie 8 homage Toei screwed up, and all we can do to make sense of that is to assume Goku was holding back. It seems Toei writers also suscribe to that because that's the only way to explain a tired Goku in a lesser form beating a stronger Kale.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by super michael » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:06 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:01 pm
- Freeza never trained in his life, it wasn't really his sparring partner the culprit of his power up but himself, he had just that much untapped power.
- I don't know where you are getting this, but Krilin cannot compete with anyone above Z SS.
- Goku's base is a mess. But that was Toriyama's fault, making Freeza so OP in RoF and then nerfing U6 base Goku. Toei just followed up what RoF established but had to dial it down in the U6 and FT arc. The SSG absorbed in his base form in BoG didn't help either.
- Roshi and the pseudo UI is something I still can't swallow. His performance in the anime made more sense to me.
- This was explained in the manga, 17 was implied to have been training with the Cell Jrs, who've been living in that island.

Kale is a mess, yes. In the name of movie 8 homage Toei screwed up, and all we can do to make sense of that is to assume Goku was holding back. It seems Toei writers also suscribe to that because that's the only way to explain a tired Goku in a lesser form beating a stronger Kale.
- Normally those with untapped potential, they have to do intense training to get powerful. Weak training doesn't get a huge potential character, this never happened to Gohan.
- I agree with you there.
- I agree with you there.
- I wish that was the explanation that C17 trained with Cell Jrs, however Goku specifically say that C17 got strong without training. Also if Cell Jrs trained with C17, why wouldn't they be SSB tier? Why not send Cell Jrs to the earth invasion, seeing that they have all the skills and knowledge of Cell.

Yes Toei really messed up, I mean sure they can say Goku was holding back, but why turn SSB to hold back and why use a Kamehameha which amplifies Goku ki to hold back.

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Re: Why did Toei make their characters worse in DBS anime?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:20 pm

super michael wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:06 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:01 pm
- Freeza never trained in his life, it wasn't really his sparring partner the culprit of his power up but himself, he had just that much untapped power.
- I don't know where you are getting this, but Krilin cannot compete with anyone above Z SS.
- Goku's base is a mess. But that was Toriyama's fault, making Freeza so OP in RoF and then nerfing U6 base Goku. Toei just followed up what RoF established but had to dial it down in the U6 and FT arc. The SSG absorbed in his base form in BoG didn't help either.
- Roshi and the pseudo UI is something I still can't swallow. His performance in the anime made more sense to me.
- This was explained in the manga, 17 was implied to have been training with the Cell Jrs, who've been living in that island.

Kale is a mess, yes. In the name of movie 8 homage Toei screwed up, and all we can do to make sense of that is to assume Goku was holding back. It seems Toei writers also suscribe to that because that's the only way to explain a tired Goku in a lesser form beating a stronger Kale.
- Normally those with untapped potential, they have to do intense training to get powerful. Weak training doesn't get a huge potential character, this never happened to Gohan.
- I agree with you there.
- I agree with you there.
- I wish that was the explanation that C17 trained with Cell Jrs, however Goku specifically say that C17 got strong without training. Also if Cell Jrs trained with C17, why wouldn't they be SSB tier? Why not send Cell Jrs to the earth invasion, seeing that they have all the skills and knowledge of Cell.

Yes Toei really messed up, I mean sure they can say Goku was holding back, but why turn SSB to hold back and why use a Kamehameha which amplifies Goku ki to hold back.
-Well, Gohan once sat on his ass for 20 hours and became Ultimate Gohan. This kind of asspull isn't new to the franchise, and while probably all of us couldn't believe Freeza got as strong with just 4 months of training, at least the reason was that he trained for it. I doubt they'll come up with a better explanation for when they bring Freeza back again to face UI Goku and need him to be relevant powerwise.

- You have a point there, Cell Jrs should have a much bigger potential than just an android. They should've gotten a considerable boost in power after that.

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