DBS treated Goten and Trunks really bad

[ABED]

17 was written to be SSB Tier with zero explanation because of pure fanservice.

I agree that there is a missed opportunity to use them but is using 17 fanservice? Does he have that many fans?

Yes his being that strong doesn't make sense but what they did with his personality was genuinely interesting and that's what matters not the power scaling stuff.

Future C17 was killing humans for fun and he never got that strong. But DBS C17 fighting human poachers got him really strong, something doesn't add up. In the manga there are Cell Jrs, it would have been great if the explanation was that C17 trained with Cell Jrs, but sadly it seems C17 doesn't train at all in the manga.

I hope in the new chapter we get to see Goten and Trunks fight and train. I hope they are not forbidden from doing so and the adults doesn't keep secrets from them.

I hope their design change and they older instead of younger.

17 in the present was said to be stronger than his future counterpart. 17 killing people for jollies doesn't get him far but fighting for the things you value like animals and family do.

[jjgp1112]

I imagine 17 in the future, with nobody he really considered a challenge around, did jack shit between killing sprees. On the other hand, this 17 trained.

[FoolsGil]

I always found it funny when people would say "Goten and Trunks are still kids because its shonen and they appeal to kids." And I'm like "They're never around, and when they are they don't do anything, or fail spectacularly, who are they appealing to?"

But yeah, Super did the kids no favors.

[Kakkaroto735]

Hopefully, something comes out of them hanging around 17. Maybe a mini arc or something.

[Ringworm128]

My biggest gripe is that they're supposed to be like 13-14 and they're still written like they're 7 years old.

[90sDBZ]

17 was written to be SSB Tier with zero explanation because of pure fanservice.

I agree that there is a missed opportunity to use them but is using 17 fanservice? Does he have that many fans?

Yes his being that strong doesn't make sense but what they did with his personality was genuinely interesting and that's what matters not the power scaling stuff.

I guess they thought bringing him back would appeal to fans, as that seems to be the logic behind a lot of characters returning.

While story and characterisation should come first, him being that strong requires suspension of disbelief which I find sort of distracting. It's not just 17 but many characters in Super.

In DB/Z there was always an explanation for characters getting stronger. Future Trunks is another example; in Super he just keeps getting rage boosts to become as strong as the plot requires. In Z it was made clear he was no match for the Androids or Cell, and that never would have changed had he not devoted a year of his life to training in hellish conditions.

I enjoy Super more when I turn my brain off and don't take it too seriously.

[Alruneia]

My biggest gripe is that they're supposed to be like 13-14 and they're still written like they're 7 years old.

I mean, they're barely even written at all.

I always found it funny when people would say "Goten and Trunks are still kids because its shonen and they appeal to kids." And I'm like "They're never around, and when they are they don't do anything, or fail spectacularly, who are they appealing to?"

I won't speak for other people, but for me, that idea is just an attempt at finding an out-of-universe reason why they haven't grown up. As in, I know that Goten and Trunks don't appeal to fans when they're as irrelevant as they are right now, but do the officials think like that anyway? Do the creators/stakeholders/etc. see Goten and Trunks as the shounen demographic representation, even if that doesn't make sense on the ground level?

[super michael]

My biggest gripe is that they're supposed to be like 13-14 and they're still written like they're 7 years old.

I mean, they're barely even written at all.

I always found it funny when people would say "Goten and Trunks are still kids because its shonen and they appeal to kids." And I'm like "They're never around, and when they are they don't do anything, or fail spectacularly, who are they appealing to?"

I won't speak for other people, but for me, that idea is just an attempt at finding an out-of-universe reason why they haven't grown up. As in, I know that Goten and Trunks don't appeal to fans when they're as irrelevant as they are right now, but do the officials think like that anyway? Do the creators/stakeholders/etc. see Goten and Trunks as the shounen demographic representation, even if that doesn't make sense on the ground level?

There are already kid characters, such as Pan and Marron. Why does Goten and Trunks need to stay as kids? Then there is Uub who is younger than Goten and Trunks. There are already enough kid to replace Goten and Trunks as kids.

Future Trunks is iconic, so I don't see why Present Trunks can't look like Future Trunks teen age.

If these companies wants to sell Goten, Trunks and Gotenks merchandise, then the anime and manga will have to stop this teasing and let them fight and train. Let them develop as characters and mature.

Good thing in DB and DBZ days they didn't decide to keep all their kid characters kids forever.

[Alruneia]

My biggest gripe is that they're supposed to be like 13-14 and they're still written like they're 7 years old.

I mean, they're barely even written at all.

I always found it funny when people would say "Goten and Trunks are still kids because its shonen and they appeal to kids." And I'm like "They're never around, and when they are they don't do anything, or fail spectacularly, who are they appealing to?"

I won't speak for other people, but for me, that idea is just an attempt at finding an out-of-universe reason why they haven't grown up. As in, I know that Goten and Trunks don't appeal to fans when they're as irrelevant as they are right now, but do the officials think like that anyway? Do the creators/stakeholders/etc. see Goten and Trunks as the shounen demographic representation, even if that doesn't make sense on the ground level?

There are already kid characters, such as Pan and Marron. Why does Goten and Trunks need to stay as kids? Then there is Uub who is younger than Goten and Trunks. There are already enough kid to replace Goten and Trunks as kids.

Future Trunks is iconic, so I don't see why Present Trunks can't look like Future Trunks teen age.

If these companies wants to sell Goten, Trunks and Gotenks merchandise, then the anime and manga will have to stop this teasing and let them fight and train. Let them develop as characters and mature.

Good thing in DB and DBZ days they didn't decide to keep all their kid characters kids forever.

They can't use Pan, Bulla and Marron for demographic representation (for the kids to self-insert as and such), since Dragon Ball is a shounen, not a shoujo, and the gender matters (and also because Pan and Bulla are literal babies at the moment). As for Uub, yes, he should by all means be the next "kid character", and he probably will be if we ever get back to EoZ in Super, but he can't join the cast yet since EoZ hasn't happened yet. Therefore it would make sense if the officials see Goten and Trunks as their best "kid characters" and want to keep it that way.

[ABED]

17 was written to be SSB Tier with zero explanation because of pure fanservice.

I agree that there is a missed opportunity to use them but is using 17 fanservice? Does he have that many fans?

Yes his being that strong doesn't make sense but what they did with his personality was genuinely interesting and that's what matters not the power scaling stuff.

I guess they thought bringing him back would appeal to fans, as that seems to be the logic behind a lot of characters returning.

While story and characterisation should come first, him being that strong requires suspension of disbelief which I find sort of distracting. It's not just 17 but many characters in Super.

In DB/Z there was always an explanation for characters getting stronger. Future Trunks is another example; in Super he just keeps getting rage boosts to become as strong as the plot requires. In Z it was made clear he was no match for the Androids or Cell, and that never would have changed had he not devoted a year of his life to training in hellish conditions.

I enjoy Super more when I turn my brain off and don't take it too seriously.

It all requires suspension of disbelief.

17 is not one of the more popular characters so I don't know who you think his return is supposed to appeal to.

Bringing back characters isn't in itself fanservice. 17 isn't dead and they needed strong allies so he makes sense. Given what we saw of his character this feels like a logical place to go. He wasn't outright hostile to humans but didn't care for them either. Removing himself from them was an interesting direction.

I've come to think explanations for this stuff aren't that necessary. Motivation and conflict and obstacles are more important. I wish we had seen more of Vegeta and Trunks' time in the Room of Spirit and Time as their interactions could've been really interesting. A son who wanted to know his father and an at best indifferent parent locked in a hellish room for a year? That's good stuff. Power scaling is ridiculous anyway. You don't have to turn your brain off and be uncritical but I would suggest putting emphasis on story and less on explanations about made up BS like battle power.

Trunks and Goten are wasted so much one wonders why they were introduced in the first place.

[Koitsukai]

I ended up accepting Toei's attempt with the kids. Somehow it explains why they became slackers in EoZ: they wanted to take part in everything fight-related in DBS, but were denied to do so, and ended up searching for new ways to occupy their time (dating for Goten, and whatever Trunks was doing). Too bad the manga had them, during the ToP, still as active fighters sparring with the Cell Jrs...

Question: could it be read as unintentional character growth-ish, when they no longer do reckless stuff such like in the Buu arc going to check out the wizard from space, and listen to their parents when they tell them to go home or stay away from the big fights? Forgetting the Potafu arc, that is.
I feel that the Z Goten and Trunks would've been sneaking around and following the whole Broly fight from a far, or even doing crazy stuff during the Moro Invasion.

[super michael]

I ended up accepting Toei's attempt with the kids. Somehow it explains why they became slackers in EoZ: they wanted to take part in everything fight-related in DBS, but were denied to do so, and ended up searching for new ways to occupy their time (dating for Goten, and whatever Trunks was doing). Too bad the manga had them, during the ToP, still as active fighters sparring with the Cell Jrs...

Question: could it be read as unintentional character growth-ish, when they no longer do reckless stuff such like in the Buu arc going to check out the wizard from space, and listen to their parents when they tell them to go home or stay away from the big fights? Forgetting the Potafu arc, that is.
I feel that the Z Goten and Trunks would've been sneaking around and following the whole Broly fight from a far, or even doing crazy stuff during the Moro Invasion.

Gohan ended up no longer fighting in EOZ, yet there was no problem with Gohan fighting in DBS. Heck Gohan said that his Saiyan blood was making him excited to fight in the ToP, something that Gohan has never said in the entire Dragon Ball.

If Gohan could fight without any problem, even though he wasn't a fighter anymore in EOZ. Then they could have done the same with Goten and Trunks.

The humans like Tien, Yamcha and Krillin retired after the Cell Game and never returned to fight again not even in EOZ. Yet DBS had no problem to return the humans and even Master Roshi who retired after the 23rd Martial Art Tournament.

[ABED]

Tenshinhan didn't retire. He is still a martial artist. He trains but just doesn't go to events like the TB anymore. Why would he?

[super michael]

Tenshinhan didn't retire. He is still a martial artist. He trains but just doesn't go to events like the TB anymore. Why would he?

I forgot about that, your right it was mentioned that Tien was still training but he wouldn't compete in the tournament. Then there is the whole Tien who rescues Gohan for Buutenks attack.

[Chuquita]

I think it's a catch-22. They no longer want to show young kids in battle, but if they age them up to where they're old looking enough to be acceptably seen in fights they won't be thought marketable by the companies because they'll say they're too old.

Recall even long ago Toriyama had to fight to for Goku's adulthood in the original manga.

Trunks and Goten had a decent string of chances back in the 90's (they starred in movies 10, 11, and kid Trunks has a big part in movie 13), they take over a good chunk of the 08 Ossu Jump Festa special, but they didn't catch on like Gohan did. I don't think their current popularity is high enough for the franchise to risk the side effect of having to age the adults around them to where the companies may see Goku, Vegeta, and Bulma as "too old" in order for Trunks and Goten to become young adults.

[90sDBZ]

It all requires suspension of disbelief.

17 is not one of the more popular characters so I don't know who you think his return is supposed to appeal to.

Bringing back characters isn't in itself fanservice. 17 isn't dead and they needed strong allies so he makes sense. Given what we saw of his character this feels like a logical place to go. He wasn't outright hostile to humans but didn't care for them either. Removing himself from them was an interesting direction.

I've come to think explanations for this stuff aren't that necessary. Motivation and conflict and obstacles are more important. I wish we had seen more of Vegeta and Trunks' time in the Room of Spirit and Time as their interactions could've been really interesting. A son who wanted to know his father and an at best indifferent parent locked in a hellish room for a year? That's good stuff. Power scaling is ridiculous anyway. You don't have to turn your brain off and be uncritical but I would suggest putting emphasis on story and less on explanations about made up BS like battle power.

Trunks and Goten are wasted so much one wonders why they were introduced in the first place.

When I said suspension of disbelief I meant it contradicts the established logic of the story. Character A always had to either go through intense training or undergo a transformation to match character B. In Super the whole idea of anyone training just feels superficial, because everyone is apparently God-Tier by default.

For example; Vegeta goes back in the Time Chamber for a year during the Black Arc and becomes strong enough to challenge Black. Meanwhile Goku does nothing and somehow gets strong enough to challenge Black too, even though he was no match for him before. Training means nothing in Super.

I don't know what the reasoning for bringing back 17 was, I was just guessing. But as they did decide to bring him back and make him a relevant fighter, they could have at least given a believable explanation for his strength. Instead all we got was "Here's 17. He's somehow infinitely stronger than before". It just feels like lazy writing and makes it hard to take anything that's said in the show seriously.

To me it matters because the tension of the story always relied on the villain being seemingly unstoppable. If anyone can become strong at the drop of a hat it breaks the illusion of the story and the villain ceases to be intimidating. To cite an early example; Tao in DB was really scary at first because Goku couldn't even touch him and he was this seemingly unstoppable force. Goku had to climb the tower and train with Korin to surpass him. We also got the interesting twist with the Sacred Water being fake. All of this felt plausible and was interesting storytelling.

Super throws all this out the window by having characters suddenly be stronger with no explanation.

[ABED]

I know what you meant but there is no "established logic of the story" when it comes to battle powers. And 17 did train, just off screen.

I think you are getting bogged down in an irrelevant detail. Freeza went off and trained and was god tier in a matter of months. That's not what was abusrd. The absurdity was bringing him back and to make matters worse he loses again for the same reason - his body consumes too much power.

17 and Freeza trained off screen. We got an explanation. Goku transforms because he got mad, Gohan gets strong because he has temper tantrums, Goku becomes as strong as a god because a bunch of his friends stand around him in a circle. It's all abusrd if you stop to think about it. You may not like it but that line of what is acceptable as an explanation of this sort of issue is arbitrary.

The interesting thing about the training with Karin wasn't explaining how Goku gets stronger, it's Goku has to overcome an obstacle to get what he needs to defeat the antagonist. It's drama.

Why are Goten and Trunks THAT much stronger than even Gohan was at their age? They just were.

[super michael]

I know what you meant but there is no "established logic of the story" when it comes to battle powers. And 17 did train, just off screen.

I think you are getting bogged down in an irrelevant detail. Freeza went off and trained and was god tier in a matter of months. That's not what was abusrd. The absurdity was bringing him back and to make matters worse he loses again for the same reason - his body consumes too much power.

17 and Freeza trained off screen. We got an explanation. Goku transforms because he got mad, Gohan gets strong because he has temper tantrums, Goku becomes as strong as a god because a bunch of his friends stand around him in a circle. It's all abusrd if you stop to think about it. You may not like it but that line of what is acceptable as an explanation of this sort of issue is arbitrary.

The interesting thing about the training with Karin wasn't explaining how Goku gets stronger, it's Goku has to overcome an obstacle to get what he needs to defeat the antagonist. It's drama.

Why are Goten and Trunks THAT much stronger than even Gohan was at their age? They just were.

Freeza got strong by beating a weakling called Tagoma, who was about as strong as Zarbon or Dodoria. That is in DBS anime, in the movie it is completely unknown. How is beating a weakling any good for training? Tagoma wouldn't be able to make Freeza sweat, let alone get Freeza injured in anyway.

C17 wasn't shown to have any power equipment for training, yet he got to SSB level or SS3 level in the manga.

The transformation of the legendary Super Saiyan was achieved when a Saiyan is strong enough and feels great rage, I don't see the problem there. SSJG Ritual is a magical ritual, so I don't see the problem here.

In DBS only Goku and Vegeta does hard training, everyone else does weak training.

Goten was born when Goku was a mastered Super Saiyan, so there is that explanation. The first Saiyan kid to be born from a parent with Super Saiyan. As for Trunks that is unknown. That is no surprise there, Saiyan kids who are born weak in Planet Vegeta were sent of world, while those with high power level stayed in Planet Vegeta.

Saiyan kids can be born with great powers, especially hybrid who was stated since the beginning of DBZ to have great potential.

[90sDBZ]

It's established very early in Z by Nappa and Vegeta that halfbreed Saiyans (and in turn Gohan) are special. Goten and Trunks are a stretch, although Trunks did have access to the gravity room from a very young age, and also sparred with Goten which would have made him stronger too.

Goku turning SS1 was a major plotpoint given tons of buildup. It also came after him training under 100x gravity, and then later recovering from near death. While anger did trigger it, the transformation still came after all that previous stuff. It felt earned, and didn't just happen out of nowhere.

My problem with 17 (and Frieza) getting that strong is it contradicts the established logic of there being limits on how strong one can get from conventional training. In Z they needed either extreme gravity, extreme conditions, recovery from near death, or a strong sparring partner. Just training alone in the woods wasn't going to cut it anymore.

[MasenkoHA]

It's established very early in Z by Nappa and Vegeta that halfbreed Saiyans (and in turn Gohan) are special. Goten and Trunks are a stretch, although Trunks did have access to the gravity room from a very young age, and also sparred with Goten which would have made him stronger too.

Goku turning SS1 was a major plotpoint given tons of buildup. It also came after him training under 100x gravity, and then later recovering from near death. While anger did trigger it, the transformation still came after all that previous stuff. It felt earned, and didn't just happen out of nowhere.

My problem with 17 (and Frieza) getting that strong is it contradicts the established logic of there being limits on how strong one can get from conventional training. In Z they needed either extreme gravity, extreme conditions, recovery from near death, or a strong sparring partner. Just training alone in the woods wasn't going to cut it anymore.

For Freeza it was established he never had to train a day in his life. So it’s not too out of left field that conventional training for four months would do him a lot of favors. He also didn’t train alone (at least in Super can’t remember Resurrection F) he used Tagoma as a sparring partner/punching bag