Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am

Let's be honest...

Some of us only watched Super because Dragon Ball was returning to television and because of nostalgia. Other than that, Super is awful in my eyes. These are (IMO) some of Super's most glaring flaws that hold it back from being the Dragon Ball Z sequel some people wanted it to be.

1. The story feels like it was written by fanfic writers given the Toriyama Seal of Approval (because it is drawn by a fanfic creator).

2. The transformations are seemingly endless (God, Blue, Golden Freeza, Rose, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct Omen, Toppo's God of Destruction form, Jiren's Full Power form, Ultra Instinct, Broly's Ikari form, Super Saiyan C-Type, Rage, Full Power Super Saiyan, Moro's 73 absorbed form, and whatever comes down the road) and are either recolors, forms stolen from GT or Z, glorified versions of Kaioken or Villainous Mode from the Heroes and Xenoverse games, or are completely original, like Ultra Instinct.

3. Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 has been downgraded even more than it already was in Z, and DBS and Heroes make mockeries of these forms! At least when Goten and Trunks did it in Dragon Ball Z, they only did it for shock factor and to show how far the Z Warriors have come since it first appeared, and they actually made good use of it with Gotenks! Cabba's reason for being able to transform so easily was at least explained, even if that explanation was BS. What did Caulifla and Kale do with it? Kale became Broly with tits and then fused with Caulifla only to have a period all over the ring of the Tournament of Power and to get hit by what is honestly one of the coolest Kamehamehas ever performed.

4. There are too many fucking plotholes that can be explained, but never did get explained. How did Vegeta gain Super Saiyan God and Blue? When and how did the Universe 6 Saiyans get so strong? Why are Universe 6 Saiyans thin wimps? Just how powerful is Whis? Is Grand Priest good or evil? Is Grand Zeno good or evil? Will any of these questions get answered? Probably not, and that's the problem. More questions rise than there are answers.

These are four of Dragon Ball Super's biggest problems. What do you guys think of Dragon Ball Super? What problems do you have with it? What should have been done better? Do you think we should've just stuck with GT and Dragon Ball Z Abridged or should we have made our own version of Dragon Ball Super?
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:40 am

I don't get the intro. What other reason should there be to watch a series of a favorite franchise? We watched it because we like Dragon Ball.
(Because of the second to last episode? Lol what?)

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:53 am

Do you at least agree with the four points I brought up about Super?
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:03 pm

Right off the bat, I can already tell what the main problem of this thread is.

You pretend to speak for everyone, don't you think that's presumptuous? You watched Super because you wanted to stick around for "episode 130" (whatever that means), I watched Super because I genuinely enjoyed the story. The beauty of opinions.

1) The story is written by Toriyama himself. He came up with all the major story concepts and character arcs. He designed the new major characters, they are entirely his creations. You could say that Super is 100%... hmm... what's the term... ah yes, CANON.

2) If you are counting all transformations in the show, then Z has just as many forms. SS, SS2, SS3, 4 Frieza forms, 3 Cell forms, 5+ Majin Buu forms, etc. and there are recolours and very similar forms here too.

3) Super Saiyan was already downgraded in Z. Vegeta literally said something like "Is this a Super Saiyan bargaining sale?!" when he saw Trunks turn SS, the show was self-aware. Two teenager punks clowned on Super Saiyan literally one arc after its introduction. Super Saiyan 2 was fodder by the time of the Majin Buu arc, no one uses it seriously, not even the guy who literally unlocked it in the first place.

4) Half of those "plot holes" aren't even plot holes lol, they are literally just lore things that need to be revealed yet. And Z had plot holes too anyway, pretty major ones as well (like the whole Cell's nucleus plot hole).

I'm glad the fandom didn't get to make their own version of Super LOL, because I can already tell it'd be trash. I don't doubt there are many professional writers in the fandom, but most people are just armchair writers who don't really understand how writing works.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by precita » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:25 pm

Super's real problem just starts from trivializing Super Saiyan God and Blue way too early in the series.

If they kept everyone around Boo saga strength for awhile most of Super's "problems" would be fixed.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:25 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am


2. The transformations are seemingly endless (God, Blue, Golden Freeza, Rose, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct Omen, Toppo's God of Destruction form, Jiren's Full Power form, Ultra Instinct, Broly's Ikari form, Super Saiyan C-Type, Rage, Full Power Super Saiyan, Moro's 73 absorbed form, and whatever comes down the road) and are either recolors, forms stolen from GT or Z, glorified versions of Kaioken or Villainous Mode from the Heroes and Xenoverse games, or are completely original, like Ultra Instinct.
Oozaru, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, Freeza form one, Freeza form two, Freeza form 3, Freeza form 4, Freeza form 4 full power, Mystic Gohan, Imperfect Cell, Semi Perfect Cell, Perfect Cell, Super Perfect Cell, Mystic Gohan, Fat Boo, Super Boo, Bootenks, Boohan, Ultra Super Saiyan.


Why are Universe 6 Saiyans thin wimps? Just how powerful is Whis? Is Grand Priest good or evil? Is Grand Zeno good or evil?
Absolutely none of these are plot holes. The universe 6 Saiyans being drawn thin is an artistic choice, we know Whis is the most powerful fighter in Universe 7, Grand Priest and Grand Zeno are neither good nor evil.
What problems do you have with it?
I think some of the character writing is questionable and obviously Super has no reason to exist but its fun for what it is.
Do you think we should've just stuck with GT and Dragon Ball Z Abridged or should we have made our own version of Dragon Ball Super?
GT still exist. DBZA is a parody people need to stop legitimizing it like its an official entry. And oh God no I can only imagine how terrible a fan made Dragon Ball Super would be. Probably something like Dragon Ball Heroes actually

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:31 pm

precita wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:25 pm
Super's real problem just starts from trivializing Super Saiyan God and Blue way too early in the series.

If they kept everyone around Boo saga strength for awhile most of Super's "problems" would be fixed.

The fact that a huge deal is made about Super Saiyan God only for it to become obsolete with Super Saiyan Blue the very next arc is rather annoying. Especially with Vegeta bypassing God mode simply by...training with Whis I guess? They should have let Vegeta become Super Saiyan God in the Golden Freeza arc and then find an excuse for Goku and Vegeta to turn Super Saiyan God without the ritual. Ditch Blue entirely.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:34 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am
Do you think we should've just stuck with GT ?
Personally speaking, I would've been more than happy with BOG being the only product to come out of this revival. It gave me everything I wanted from a modern, post Buu arc Toriyama story and then some. I never felt the need for them to continue further.

I wrote these in another topic, so I'll just post them here. I'm sure there's more but this should be enough for now. :lol:

-The stories being set pre-EOZ.
- The cheap looking art and animation.
- Episode 5...enough said.
- Starting with inferior retellings of better movies.
- SsjG having the power to heal...just once...because.
- Piccolo's "death" in RF.
- Gohan being regressed to nothing.
- Beerus and Whis post-BOG.
- Goku being written as if he only had 2 brain cells.
- Vegeta obsession over Goku.
- SsjB, Rose, & MUI
- Piccolo, Buu, & Monaka amounting to nothing in Champa's tournament.
- Frost ending up as nothing more than a Freeza rip off.
- Goku and Hit ending their fight prematurely due to the "rules".
- Cabba's relationship with Vegeta not really going anywhere.
- Caulifla being a Mary Sue.
- Kale being a Broly rip off
- Ssj being reduced to "feeling something in your back".
- Everything to do with Rebrianne and her friends.
- The TOP arc lasting for FIFTY FIVE episodes long.
- Jiren being the worst antagonist in the franchise's history.
- Future Trunks being a Gary stu (I think that's the term).
- Zamasu's entire motivation revolving around mindless beasts attacking him.
- Vegetto's "time limit".
- Future Trunks and Mai ending up in a...mirror timeline (?) of their original.
- Common sense power scaling being thrown out the window.
- The tournament of power having no consequences.
- 5 of the 11 new universes being completely wasted.
- Gohan going from 0 to mystic in one day of training with Piccolo.
- A good number of the cast being parodies of their former selves.
- Roshi's recruitment episode.
- The copy Vegeta arc.
- The status quo barely changing, if at all.
- Goten and Trunks.
- The constant call backs to previous events.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by precita » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:41 pm

Most of these things with the exception of a few are nitpicks, it's the same thing people used to complain about when the Boo saga was the last series.

Like SSJ3, Super Saiyan kids, Fusion, Gohan's Ultimate form not amounting to much, etc. The only reason people don't talk about this as much anymore is because its done to death or generally accepted. Now Super is the new "hot takes."

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Kamiccolo9 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:44 pm

I thought it was dumb fun while I was watching, then immediately forgot basically everything once the show ended. Seems to me the show did its job.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:55 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:03 pm
Right off the bat, I can already tell what the main problem of this thread is.

You pretend to speak for everyone, don't you think that's presumptuous? You watched Super because you wanted to stick around for "episode 130" (whatever that means)
That's a blatant lie. I never watched Super so that I could stay around for episode 130; I never even knew what Ultra Instinct was when I first saw Super. I started watching Super right at the episode when Vegito returned, and I watched Super to the end of the English dub. After it was over, I started to learn more about Dragon Ball and then found this website. I realized that I had missed, like, almost half of Dragon Ball Super, so I took it upon myself to go back and rewatch the Battle of Gods, Ressurection F (oh god not that arc), the Universe 6 Tournament, and the rest of the Goku Black arc and Copy Vegeta mini-arc.

My main reasons I watched Super:

1. I was an 11-year-old who was just introduced to the Dragon Ball franchise through Dragon Ball Z Kai: The Final Chapters (no idea why I started with the Buu Arc)

2. I love listening to Sean Schemmel scream his lungs out

3. I really enjoyed every scene with Super Saiyan Blue in it

4. Vegito. Is. A. Fucking. SAVAGE. 'Nough said.

5. When I first saw Ultra Instinct, I was just in my seat screaming H O L Y S H I T, Goku is awesome! Dragon Ball is awesome!!!! REEEEEEEEEEE

6. Beerus is actually a very interesting character to me. And then a thought came up. "Why doesn't Super have its own standalone game that isn't connected to the Z story and doesn't have the Dragon Ball Z moniker?"


Anyway, my point is, I only watched Super for the cool parts. Everything else other than the memes from Super weren't important enough for me to give a damn about them.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:05 pm

Super is a mixed bag for sure in terms of the most recent DB revival run, even moreso than GT already was. It has some good moments but quite a lot of notable flaws as well, although one of the things i dislike most about the show aside from cheap looking animation in some episodes is that two whole arcs at the beginning of the series that are basically dedicated as extended retellings of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F. I feel that these sets of episodes are basically redundant overall, because aside from some little changes and additions of extra scenes there's nothing that you really miss out on by just watching the respective films themselves.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:05 pm

I get that title, but it doesn't work in this format. It has to be in video format, you know, like CinemaSins does. Well, now I'm interested in how they would do Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super... Honest Trailers should also do a video about Dragon Ball Super, it would be hilarious too.
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am
1. The story feels like it was written by fanfic writers given the Toriyama Seal of Approval (because it is drawn by a fanfic creator).
Seeing from the big picture, Dragon Ball Super doesn't even have story. It's just a bunch of retellings and tournaments. You have to look harder to find Future Trunks saga somewhere in there picture. But then, when you finally find that saga, it kinda feels like that. I understand the circumstances of bringing back Trunks, I myself approve it, but only if done right, which is not quite how it went, though. Probably the only good thing that came out of it was finally gettting "to see" how the Majin Buu saga played out for the character (and I would add that I got to see him as a Super Saiyan 2, but Toei screwed his hair and now I have to put up with Trunks not having it in games/merchandising, because it's no different from Super Saiyan, or if it has the form, it looks the same as Super Saiyan).

Every other character from the past shouldn't have returned, they brought nothing to the table and weren't done anything interesting with them.
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am
2. The transformations are seemingly endless (God, Blue, Golden Freeza, Rose, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct Omen, Toppo's God of Destruction form, Jiren's Full Power form, Ultra Instinct, Broly's Ikari form, Super Saiyan C-Type, Rage, Full Power Super Saiyan, Moro's 73 absorbed form, and whatever comes down the road) and are either recolors, forms stolen from GT or Z, glorified versions of Kaioken or Villainous Mode from the Heroes and Xenoverse games, or are completely original, like Ultra Instinct.
Yep, and half of those shouldn't even be transformations. How the heck can someone transform into "God of Destruction"? What is that? What does that even mean? :crazy:

It's like they have to make a transformation for every detail/lore that is presented. And then there is the recolors problem...
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am
3. Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 has been downgraded even more than it already was in Z, and DBS and Heroes make mockeries of these forms! At least when Goten and Trunks did it in Dragon Ball Z, they only did it for shock factor and to show how far the Z Warriors have come since it first appeared, and they actually made good use of it with Gotenks! Cabba's reason for being able to transform so easily was at least explained, even if that explanation was BS. What did Caulifla and Kale do with it? Kale became Broly with tits and then fused with Caulifla only to have a period all over the ring of the Tournament of Power and to get hit by what is honestly one of the coolest Kamehamehas ever performed.
I'll speak for Super Saiyan 2 only. I don't see it as being a mockery. Still, I wanted to see more of the form and other characters using it, and Toei did just that. The thing is, with this unnecessary amount of Super Saiyan forms we have today, there's no room anymore for Super Saiyan 2 to appear. Then again, that always raises the question "then why Super Saiyan is still being used?" since it's the weakest of all transformations and Super Saiyan 2 would be a better choice, it's stronger and doesn't have any known drawbacks. Super Saiyan only appears because it's the iconic transformation of the franchise, even if it doesn't make sense to use it (and it doesn't), it will still appear everywhere.
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am
4. There are too many fucking plotholes that can be explained, but never did get explained.
The fact that they aren't explained is the most infuriating part. An Yadorat (and a Tsufurujin) in the Universe 2 team? Why? How?

And then there are the unexplainable ones too. Like Freeza surpassing everyone is just four months. King Cold had already warned Freeza never to approach Beerus and Buu, so why didn't Freeza trained those four months to surpass Buu? And another four months to surpass Beerus? (And probably yet another four months to surpass Daishinkan?) That would prevent him from losing to Goku and from dying to Trunks too...
FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am
Do you think we should've just stuck with GT and Dragon Ball Z Abridged or should we have made our own version of Dragon Ball Super?
What the heck is "Dragon Ball Z Abridged"? Anyway, yeah. Either stick with Dragon Ball GT or adapt Dragon Ball Online, the latter would be a better choice.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:14 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:55 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:03 pm
Right off the bat, I can already tell what the main problem of this thread is.

You pretend to speak for everyone, don't you think that's presumptuous? You watched Super because you wanted to stick around for "episode 130" (whatever that means)
That's a blatant lie. I never watched Super so that I could stay around for episode 130;
Ok well, as I said, speak for yourself. I don't like how you start the thread literally with "We" instead of "I". Why do you presume that you speak for people other than yourself?

Also, that's literally what you said. You said "we only watched Super because of ep. 130", that's what you said so...
I can feel it. Two glorious and unparalleled powers dissolving into one... within me. Behold this ultimate vessel, the sword and shield made one! Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:14 pm

precita wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:41 pm
Most of these things with the exception of a few are nitpicks, it's the same thing people used to complain about when the Boo saga was the last series.

Like SSJ3, Super Saiyan kids, Fusion, Gohan's Ultimate form not amounting to much, etc. The only reason people don't talk about this as much anymore is because its done to death or generally accepted. Now Super is the new "hot takes."
But wasn't Gohan the first Super Saiyan kid? By the Cell Saga, basically every Saiyan we knew (Raditz, Nappa, Turles, and Bardock are exempt from this because they're either non-canon or they're dead) was able to use the first grade of Super Saiyan at bare minimum. People are quick to call out the Buu Saga for having Super Saiyan kids, but they forget or don't know that we've had Super Saiyan kids since the Cell Saga.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:18 pm

Either stick with Dragon Ball GT or adapt Dragon Ball Online, the latter would be a better choice.
[/quote]

Know what? If Super continues, I'd honestly be OK if it takes Dragon Ball Online's timeline and goes to town with it. Toriyama better tell Toyotaro "ドラゴンボールオンラインの話をめちゃくちゃにしないでください。さもないと解雇されます" (that means [Don't fuck up the Dragon Ball Online story or you're fired] in Japanese)
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by sunsetshimmer » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:52 pm

Super is simply unoriginal. They play too safe being afraid to change anything about most of main cast, change their designs or even actually age them. Goten and Trunks actually look even younger than in Buu saga despite 6 years time gap.

Transformations? Basically everything is either lazy recolor or "Full Power" character state. Like take Jiren's shirt off and call that a form. The only good forms DBS introduced were UI Omen and SSJG which wasn't really introduced in DBS anyway since it came from DBZ movie. Then you have some cheap forms like SSJ with blue or pink hair, Frieza going gold, Kale becoming Broly in EVERY possible way etc.

Story? Two first arcs are movie retellings. Then you have 2 tournaments and arc that plays safe in another timeline being one big plot hole.

Antagonists/villains? The only original and worth speaking of villain DBS introduced was Moro and he wasn't even made by Toriyama as far as i know. Others were just generic and bland, basically level of movie villains or Super 17 at best. I'm including Moro crew here as well obviously. Basically two villains in DBS are jelly version of Vegeta and evil Goku with pink hair that was predicted by fanarts and fanfics years before DBS and that includes his design. Speaking of antagonists that were not really evil, i found only Hit, Ribrianne and Kefla to be interesting. Caulifla alone wasn't bad though. Neither was Toppo. Out of antagonists, Merus was okay, worth admitting.

Then you have Broly movie which was the most unoriginal thing they could do. So much unoriginal that when i saw leaked poster i thought it's a joke because honestly, even for Super that seemed too dumb to make 4th movie about Broly, even if it's reboot and even if (matter of opinion) new version is better. And of course they brought back Bardock and Gogeta for fanservice reasons, since they are extremely popular. Basically DBS is one big fanservice, constantly bringing back the most popular characters, like Frieza, #17 and Future Trunks. Even Vegito who as (i think) Toyotaro admitted, wasn't even planned by Toriyama to appear but was added because he is popular, despite doing nothing in arc and being competely outshined by plot-armor powered Trunks in the same episode and getting awful time related nerf in exchange.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:52 pm

I mean you could've said "a 131-episode anime has only one actual plot arc that isn't a movie rehash, filler, or Yet Another God Damn Fucking Tournament Arc" and that would've sufficed.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:02 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:52 pm
I mean you could've said "a 131-episode anime has only one actual plot arc that isn't a movie rehash, filler, or Yet Another God Damn Fucking Tournament Arc" and that would've sufficed.
You can literally break this franchise down into

1. Find Dragon Balls (Shen Long arc, Red Ribbon, Black Star)

2. Stop most powerful villain yet (Piccolo Daimao, Saiyans, Freeza, Cyborgs, Boo, Baby, Super 17, Shadow Dragons, Beerus, Golden Freeza, Zamasu)

3. Tournament! (21st Tenkaichi, 22nd Tenkaichi, 23rd Tenkaichi, Fortune Teller Baba, Otherworld Budokai, Great Saiyaman, Champa, Universe Survival)

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue Jan 12, 2021 2:05 pm

I really wanted Super to be more than just Sean Schemmel screaming his lungs out, I really did, but when you think about it; as George Xian said on Quora, "super is nothing more than The Powerpuff Girls on steroids trying to push itself into DB’s canon." which I find fucking hilarious and I totally agree.
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