Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Skar » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:28 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am
1. The story feels like it was written by fanfic writers given the Toriyama Seal of Approval (because it is drawn by a fanfic creator).
Well there are only so many possibilities out there that haven't been done already in the original manga, movies, and video games. If you've read fanwork then you've probably come across most ideas and plot lines in DBS. I still tried to give them a chance but some ideas I kinda wish never made their way to the official series. When a series ends, I try to forget about the parts I thought were bad and only remember or rewatch what I enjoyed.

I think arguing if it's objectively good or wrong is unnecessary since only time will tell. What's good will hold up over time without anyone having to argue in favor of it while anything average or derivative usually gets forgotten. In the latest arc ranking thread, the Saiyan arc ranks #1. Even if someone wouldn't rank it as their favorite, it's still widely considered a classic by DB and Shonen fans in general.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 18609
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: VA
Contact:

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by ABED » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:42 pm

You can't say whether a story is objectively good or bad.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

precita
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5816
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by precita » Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:56 pm

There's no problem with tournament arcs. DBZ had no real tournament arcs until the Boo arc and that was cut short but this is not DBZ.

The "new villain comes out of nowhere to challenge the heroes" is equally done to death, especially with all the old movies included. So I don't see the problem.

User avatar
Cold Skin
I Live Here
Posts: 2331
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:09 pm
Location: France

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Cold Skin » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:02 pm

It's a bit much to start the thread saying "we all know that we only watch Super because..." and stating "Super is awful" as an absolute truth everybody has to admit.

I've been a fan of Dragon Ball for all of my life, living through the Z era during my childhood in the 90s, and yet I put Super on the same level as the original when it comes to my personal enjoyment watching/reading it, simply because it's more of what I love but it builds upon it to expand it even more, and it does so pretty nicely in my point of view.

Back then, I started watching GT, happy that the story would continue and ready to feel that way, but failed to like it due to the way it didn't feel like DB but like a strange fanfic for me, or some other show with "DB skins" (to use video game language) on the characters and landscapes. And it is all my personal feeling about it, I couldn't connect with it but I wouldn't say something like "we all know that GT was total trash and is not DB at all" when there is clearly a high number of people who like it, with its content still being used and welcomed with open arms nowadays.

On the other hand, when I watch Super, I genuinely feel like I'm continuing the same Dragon Ball I always loved that Toriyama gave us, and that I am very lucky to be able to go through such an enjoyable sequel that rehabilitates forgotten/outdated characters I would have stopped caring about, gives us stylish new looks/forms/characters, expands the mythology and universe, gives us fascinating arcs that keep you guessing and on the edge of your seat with new legendary moments, etc...
So apparently, the opinion that Super is a very enjoyable sequel does exist, even with long time fans.

So "Some people only watched Super because..." and "Some people think Super is awful" would have been a better way to start things off.

User avatar
jamiljamtheman
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:00 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by jamiljamtheman » Tue Jan 12, 2021 9:17 pm

Though Super isn’t perfect, I enjoy(Ed) it quite a bit. Though I haven’t seen much of the anime (the pacing isn’t my thing), having instead consumed it via the movies, manga, and tail end of anime episodes.

To answer “should we have made our own version of Dragon Ball Super?”, my opinion is no. This question struck me because I’ve watched/read several Dragon Ball fan fiction stories, and even though Super isn’t perfect it’s quite a bit better than fan fiction. The little details of everything from Character Design, world expansion, transformation design, dialogue writing, and story beats go a long way towards making it a more professional, higher quality product. Again, not perfect, and it has faults, but my view is that it’s better than fan fiction by a lot. Even the fan fiction I like.

User avatar
PurestEvil
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 294
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2020 2:34 pm
Location: Constantinopolee!

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:48 am

I am not a fan of the condescending tone you have in your original post. Like, there are valid reasons why people can enjoy Dragon Ball Super. Even as someone who doesn't actually like it myself, this sort of "hate thread" is totally meaningless apart from being circle-jerking bait.

EDIT: Also, do you really think things would be better if DBS was a fan show?! People lost their shit over Dragon Ball Multiverse, what makes you think a fan written official sequel would not get fucked up, too?
This post was brought to you by 魔族

User avatar
Matches Malone
I Live Here
Posts: 3216
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:56 am

PurestEvil wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:48 am
Do you really think things would be better if DBS was a fan show?!
Super is a fan show, the writers and producers have said multiple times that they try to listen to the fans and give them what they want. A good number of problems with Super are the result of fan feedback being taken into account.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2639
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:23 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:56 am
PurestEvil wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:48 am
Do you really think things would be better if DBS was a fan show?!
Super is a fan show, the writers and producers have said multiple times that they try to listen to the fans and give them what they want. A good number of problems with Super are the result of fan feedback being taken into account.
That's not how it works. Super is an official product written by Toriyama himself, the creator of the franchise. Listening to fan feedback doesn't suddenly make your product fan-made and non-canon.

Fact is that Toriyama is a professional writer. If you think he did a bad job with Super, fans would 100% do a worse job.
I can feel it. Two glorious and unparalleled powers dissolving into one... within me. Behold this ultimate vessel, the sword and shield made one! Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute.

Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!

User avatar
Matches Malone
I Live Here
Posts: 3216
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:06 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:23 am
That's not how it works. Super is an official product written by Toriyama himself, the creator of the franchise. Listening to fan feedback doesn't suddenly make your product fan-made and non-canon.

Fact is that Toriyama is a professional writer. If you think he did a bad job with Super, fans would 100% do a worse job.
I didn't mean literally a fan show, rather one that has a number of what fans would include if they were in charge.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2639
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:51 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:06 am
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:23 am
That's not how it works. Super is an official product written by Toriyama himself, the creator of the franchise. Listening to fan feedback doesn't suddenly make your product fan-made and non-canon.

Fact is that Toriyama is a professional writer. If you think he did a bad job with Super, fans would 100% do a worse job.
I didn't mean literally a fan show, rather one that has a number of what fans would include if they were in charge.
If fans were in charge of Super, Super would've been cancelled back in 2015 to be honest.

Like, just admit it, you armchair writers wouldn't be able to write a successful and gripping story like Super's.

Which is successful and gripping by the way, or name me another show where the episodes were live-streamed in literal city centres.
I can feel it. Two glorious and unparalleled powers dissolving into one... within me. Behold this ultimate vessel, the sword and shield made one! Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute.

Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Skar » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:58 am

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:51 am
Like, just admit it, you armchair writers wouldn't be able to write a successful and gripping story like Super's.
Well I don't think any of us are professional writers. If a fan gives criticism of a series they like, generally it's because they think it could be handled better maybe based on other professional work they've seen not that they think they could do better themselves.

My criticism of DBS is pretty minor compared to most fans since I usually have low expectations for anything that comes after series ends. I thought some of it was gripping but I admit there were times were I thought "I never predicted this idea, execution, characterization, etc I've seen before would make its way to the official series but maybe they were rushed or couldn't think of anything else". Not saying they're bad ideas since it's all subjective just that I formed an opinion of them years ago and thought they went a little too far by what was considered acceptable in DB or likely to have been done by Toriyama back then. It's happened so not much to do about it now but I still try to stay positive and hope the next arc is an opportunity to do better than the last.

User avatar
FPSSJ4_Goku
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:33 pm
Location: New York, US

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:19 pm

Like, just admit it, you armchair writers wouldn't be able to write a successful and gripping story like Super's.
[/quote]

Not true; I can make a story that's just as good, if not better than Super. Because be real with me....who here thought that Super's story was all over the place? I sure as hell did.
Ryo Horikawa is my husbando even though I'm a guy

-FPSSJ4_Goku, 2021

User avatar
Matches Malone
I Live Here
Posts: 3216
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:12 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:32 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:19 pm
I can make a story that's just as good, if not better than Super.

Who here thought that Super's story was all over the place? I sure as hell did.
Pretty much anyone could. :lol:

Anyone who knows anything about storytelling. Each story following BOG could've used at least 2 rewrites.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1821
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:25 pm

DB Multiverse is proof that the fandom has no idea what to do with these characters, and we are talking about great artists with 10 years to come up with something good, yet there you have it. It's worse than DB Evolution.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2639
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:41 pm

The writers of Super don't need to change anything. Above all else, a story is meant to entertain people. It's not meant to be logical, it's meant to be entertaining. Like it or hate it, the story of Dragon Ball Super was clearly entertaining to the vast majority of people:
Image

What's likely to happen if some of you people wrote Super is that the story might end up being a little more consistent/logical (though, judging by what I've seen around here, I doubt it lol), but it would no doubt be boring as hell.
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:25 pm
DB Multiverse is proof that the fandom has no idea what to do with these characters, and we are talking about great artists with 10 years to come up with something good, yet there you have it. It's worse than DB Evolution.
Thank you.
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:46 pm, edited 4 times in total.
I can feel it. Two glorious and unparalleled powers dissolving into one... within me. Behold this ultimate vessel, the sword and shield made one! Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute.

Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!

User avatar
FPSSJ4_Goku
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 98
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:33 pm
Location: New York, US

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:42 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:25 pm
DB Multiverse is proof that the fandom has no idea what to do with these characters, and we are talking about great artists with 10 years to come up with something good, yet there you have it. It's worse than DB Evolution.
Explain to me how they took the Tournament of Power and prolonged it from over a year in terms of episodes (around 54 episodes in the TOP) to over TEN YEARS. I REPEAT, A TOURNAMENT THAT LASTED FOR TEN YEARS.
Ryo Horikawa is my husbando even though I'm a guy

-FPSSJ4_Goku, 2021

User avatar
The Undying
Banned Alternate Account
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:47 pm

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by The Undying » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:22 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:32 pm
Anyone who knows anything about storytelling. Each story following BOG could've used at least 2 rewrites.
Bad argument.

Literally any moron can tweak somebody else's stuff, regardless of writing ability. You didn't put anywhere close to the same amount of effort it took collaborative artists like Toriyama or Toyotaro or their editors to structure their story, build their themes, develop their characters, decide which visual elements to use, and so on. Making little alterations because they did something you didn't like doesn't put you on their level, and if that's how you think storytelling works, you're ill-equipped to contribute to this subject.

Criticism is fine. Backseat writing is not. Start from the ground up without copypasting their work if you think you can do better.
Formerly Marlowe89.

User avatar
Skar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1128
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:04 pm
Location: US

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Skar » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:41 pm
The writers of Super don't need to change anything. Above all else, a story is meant to entertain people. It's not meant to be logical, it's meant to be entertaining. Like it or hate it, the story of Dragon Ball Super was clearly entertaining to the vast majority of people:
To be honest, I'm glad the actual writers don't have this mentality otherwise they wouldn't acknowledge there's room for improvement. You can use this argument for any Hollywood blockbuster or literally anything that's popular and has many fans but it doesn't stop it from getting criticism and the belief that some things could've been handled better.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 2639
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:31 pm

Skar wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:25 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:41 pm
The writers of Super don't need to change anything. Above all else, a story is meant to entertain people. It's not meant to be logical, it's meant to be entertaining. Like it or hate it, the story of Dragon Ball Super was clearly entertaining to the vast majority of people:
To be honest, I'm glad the actual writers don't have this mentality otherwise they wouldn't acknowledge there's room for improvement. You can use this argument for any Hollywood blockbuster or literally anything that's popular and has many fans but it doesn't stop it from getting criticism and the belief that some things could've been handled better.
I didn't say you can't criticize Super, I've criticized it many times in the past.

But there's a difference between criticizing something, while still respecting the work of professional writers (which Toriyama, Toyotaro, and Toei are), and just straight up thinking you could make a better and more entertaining show. There is an obvious difference.

I have criticized a lot of stuff that happened in Super, but it's not like I'll suddenly gloat and say "Oh I could do so much better than Toriyama, anyone who knows anything about storytelling could", because that's just a lie. As others have said, there's a big difference between tweaking a bunch of details and coming up with literally a new storyline from 0.
I can feel it. Two glorious and unparalleled powers dissolving into one... within me. Behold this ultimate vessel, the sword and shield made one! Its strength knows no limits. The power coursing through me is exceptional, glorious, absolute.

Stare in awe, I AM JUSTICE INCARNATE!

User avatar
super michael
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2020 6:05 am

Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:46 pm

It is supposed to be entertaining, which is why knowing and seeing everyone doing hardcore and mind blowing training is good and if there are any surprise like magic involved, then that makes it even more entertaining and surprising. Krillin Gym, Freeza beating a weakling for 4 months and Buu training with Mr Satan is not entertaining.

In DB and DBZ we saw their great training, which was fun to watch or hear. When the humans did the same training as Goku, we know that they trained hard. Nowadays only Goku and Vegeta does entertaining and exciting training. When we saw the characters power up by doing exciting training or magic, that made their power gain look great.

DBS has this stupid logic to tease certain characters like Goten and Trunks, make the fans all hyped that they are motivated to do things but their parents 100%. Why in the world would the writers think that is cool? No other anime and manga does this writing for a reason because it is stupid. To make it worse it was constantly that happened every time.
Basically don't be a fan of Goten and Trunks, otherwise DBS would be a disappointment. I really hope that in the new chapter they fix this.

The other issue with DBS is the characters don't age at all like Goten, Trunks and Marron. Then the other issue is they retconned Future Trunks hair to blue for no reason. They could have made it a plot that Future Trunks dyed his hair to remember his mum or too much time travel did it. But no they retconned his hair.

Post Reply