Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Jord » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:49 pm

The biggest problem is....it's just boring. There are no stakes. We know who will survive.
Takes away all of the tension.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:56 pm

Jord wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:49 pm The biggest problem is....it's just boring. There are no stakes. We know who will survive.
Takes away all of the tension.
I really don't get this criticism, either. In all of Dragon Ball, how many of the good guys have died and actually stayed dead?

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Jord » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:02 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:56 pm
Jord wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:49 pm The biggest problem is....it's just boring. There are no stakes. We know who will survive.
Takes away all of the tension.
I really don't get this criticism, either. In all of Dragon Ball, how many of the good guys have died and actually stayed dead?
Good point but since people have died and not come back (or stayed dead for a long while) there is at least the suspension of disbelief. If EOZ didn't exist, we could perhaps believe that one of the characters would sacrifice himself for the greater good like Goku vs Cell. Even if the chance is slim, there is still a chance.
In Super there is no chance for the main characters to die or for their deaths to last long since we've seen them in EoZ.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:03 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:56 pm
Jord wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:49 pm The biggest problem is....it's just boring. There are no stakes. We know who will survive.
Takes away all of the tension.
I really don't get this criticism, either. In all of Dragon Ball, how many of the good guys have died and actually stayed dead?
The one entire Namekian village, Future Goku 2x, Future Gohan, Future Goten, entire Future Z Fighters and Goku in the Cell Game until the Buu Saga which was unexpected that he got revived.

Basically when we watched DB and DBZ we didn't know who would get revived or stay dead, especially when the Shenron was destroyed or gone. We didn't know that many years later a person could get revived that is until RoF. Normally I remember it was 1 year limit and then they can't get revived anymore. If there was no time limit, I wonder why they didn't revive the village that Vegeta killed.

When we watched DB and DBZ it wasn't like we knew what will happen or survive, but DBS since it is between Buu Saga to EOZ we know who survive and who doesn't.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:06 pm

Moving this over to the "Dragon Ball Super" sub-section.

More than anything else, I would encourage people to not necessarily be so hyperbolic with their statements. "Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super" may be begrudgingly-necessary when you're developing something to work against some kind of recommendation algorithm, but that's just not necessary on a traditional forum. Your thread is guaranteed to appear; you don't have to fight for attention.

I would also encourage folks to seek out other, existing threads, and see where they can add their own two-cents to discussions that are already taking place. It's always OK to open a new thread, but do take a moment to consider what else is out there.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:16 pm

Jord wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:02 pmGood point but since people have died and not come back (or stayed dead for a long while) there is at least the suspension of disbelief. If EOZ didn't exist, we could perhaps believe that one of the characters would sacrifice himself for the greater good like Goku vs Cell. Even if the chance is slim, there is still a chance.
In Super there is no chance for the main characters to die or for their deaths to last long since we've seen them in EoZ.
A villain could show up and kill all the main characters 5 times before breakfast, and the Dragon Balls could bring them back in time for the 28th Budokai. Would that make it a good, tense story? Or is the way a story pans out more important than who happens to die in it?
super michael wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:03 pmThe one entire Namekian village,
...Seriously? This is the definition of 'good guys' we're forced to try using? Why don't you throw Kaio-Sama into the mix as well, if you're talking tangential characters whose deaths aren't actually important to the story?
super michael wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:03 pmFuture Goku 2x, Future Gohan, Future Goten, entire Future Z Fighters
Future everybody dies in Dragon Ball Super (except Trunks and Mai). Literally all the people who existed in that reality.
super michael wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:03 pmand Goku in the Cell Game until the Buu Saga which was unexpected that he got revived.
...So, he got revived and is alive like I said, is what you're saying.
super michael wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:03 pmBasically when we watched DB and DBZ we didn't know who would get revived or stay dead, especially when the Shenron was destroyed or gone.
To uphold that idea, you'd've had to encounter Dragon Ball with literally no knowledge about how it might pan out, from fansites and plot summaries and the like. The audience for its initial release would have been in that position, sure, but even they would have maintained the sense that things would come good, the good guys would win, and everyone would end up okay. Which happened. Even the hackneyed question, 'how is X gonna get out of this one??' assumes that they will.

Are you really telling me you had no idea whatsoever - not even a general inkling - of how Dragon Ball was going to pan out prior to watching it? 'Cause I sure knew, and that was like 20 years ago. The idea that people in this fandom, in this day and age, experience Dragon Ball in total ignorance of how it will unfold is, to put it mildly, unconvincing.

Again, the way the story itself pans out is far more important than its collateral damage. I'm amazed it even needs saying.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:33 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:16 pm ...Seriously? This is the definition of 'good guys' we're forced to try using? Why don't you throw Kaio-Sama into the mix as well, if you're talking tangential characters whose deaths aren't actually important to the story?
I forgot about Kaio but that is a good point.

Future everybody dies in Dragon Ball Super (except Trunks and Mai). Literally all the people who existed in that reality.
We don't know what happened to the time line that Zamasu stole Goku body and killed Future Goku, Chi Chi and Goten, once he did that he went to Future Trunks time line which there was no Goku at all.
So, he got revived and is alive like I said, is what you're saying.
I guess I see your point your right. However it took 7 years to revive Goku, which was expected at all.
To uphold that idea, you'd've had to encounter Dragon Ball with literally no knowledge about how it might pan out, from fansites and plot summaries and the like. The audience for its initial release would have been in that position, sure, but even they would have maintained the sense that things would come good, the good guys would win, and everyone would end up okay. Which happened. Even the hackneyed question, 'how is X gonna get out of this one??' assumes that they will.

Are you really telling me you had no idea whatsoever - not even a general inkling - of how Dragon Ball was going to pan out prior to watching it? 'Cause I sure knew, and that was like 20 years ago. The idea that people in this fandom, in this day and age, experience Dragon Ball in total ignorance of how it will unfold is, to put it mildly, unconvincing.

Again, the way the story itself pans out is far more important than its collateral damage. I'm amazed it even needs saying.
When Shenron was destroyed we didn't know that it was possible to revive Shenron, it looked like it wasn't possible to bring him back. It wasn't until Goku spoke to Kami that we found out.

When Piccolo and Kami died again Shenron was gone and we are told that those that died couldn't get revived again, that is why it was a big deal if someone that got revived would die again.

Of course when Piccolo and Kami fused that means no more Dragon Ball, so if anyone died that would be it. Although going to Namek to get a new guardian was unexpected.

I am talking about when Dragon Ball was new, when the internet was niche and really expensive at the time. So I didn't use the internet at the time. I didn't know about forms in the time I watched DB, DBZ and DBGT.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:52 pm

super michael wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:33 pmWe don't know what happened to the time line that Zamasu stole Goku body and killed Future Goku, Chi Chi and Goten, once he did that he went to Future Trunks time line which there was no Goku at all.
In Trunks's future timeline, Zamas kills all the Gods and Humans, and Zeno erases the whole of that reality. Did that add anything to the sense of 'tension' or 'stakes' in and of itself? I sure don't think it did. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it was almost totally irrelevant - it made no difference to how one might've encountered or enjoyed the story at all.
super michael wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:33 pmI am talking about when Dragon Ball was new, when the internet was niche and really expensive at the time. So I didn't use the internet at the time. I didn't know about forms in the time I watched DB, DBZ and DBGT.
So, you're arguing that the original audience would have had literally no idea that things would turn out okay when things looked bad at some point, even if they weren't sure how? You seriously expected everyone to die and the bad guy to win? I find that really, really doubtful. And if you knew things were going to be okay somehow, just how much 'tension' could it really have?

And if people did have the idea that things would come good in the end - as is likely, firstly since that's the nature of stories like this, and secondly since Dragon Ball made a real pattern of things turning out okay through its whole run - I likewise find the argument 'you know things will be okay so that's a problem for your enjoyment of the story' seriously unconvincing.

We always knew things would be okay, for all of Dragon Ball, even if we weren't sure how - and the 'how' is the more important facet of whether it's a satisfying story or not. For me it is, anyway.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by super michael » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:14 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:52 pm In Trunks's future timeline, Zamas kills all the Gods and Humans, and Zeno erases the whole of that reality. Did that add anything to the sense of 'tension' or 'stakes' in and of itself? I sure don't think it did. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it was almost totally irrelevant - it made no difference to how one might've encountered or enjoyed the story at all.
It makes it surprising that is the element it has, since we don't know what happened to Future Trunks time line in EOZ that means we don't know anything that would happen.
I really would have liked if Future Trunks stayed in the present time line, but that is another discussion.

So, you're arguing that the original audience would have had literally no idea that things would turn out okay when things looked bad at some point, even if they weren't sure how? You seriously expected everyone to die and the bad guy to win? I find that really, really doubtful. And if you knew things were going to be okay somehow, just how much 'tension' could it really have?

And if people did have the idea that things would come good in the end - as is likely, firstly since that's the nature of stories like this, and secondly since Dragon Ball made a real pattern of things turning out okay through its whole run - I likewise find the argument 'you know things will be okay so that's a problem for your enjoyment of the story' seriously unconvincing.

We always knew things would be okay, for all of Dragon Ball, even if we weren't sure how - and the 'how' is the more important facet of whether it's a satisfying story or not. For me it is, anyway.

The only thing we know is that the good guys would win, but we don't know who survive and who gets revived. When the Cell Games ended no one though that Goku would stay dead and when the Buu Saga started no one though that Goku would get revive. That was the element of surprise. We couldn't see what would happen next, we just had to wait and see.

However in DBS we just have to look at EOZ and see who survive and who dies. That is the element of surprise that doesn't exist in DBS. Once DBS goes beyond EOZ then that element of surprise returns.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:26 pm

super michael wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:14 pmThe only thing we know is that the good guys would win, but we don't know who survive and who gets revived. When the Cell Games ended no one though that Goku would stay dead and when the Buu Saga started no one though that Goku would get revive. That was the element of surprise. We couldn't see what would happen next, we just had to wait and see.

However in DBS we just have to look at EOZ and see who survive and who dies. That is the element of surprise that doesn't exist in DBS. Once DBS goes beyond EOZ then that element of surprise returns.
This is what I'm saying - the question of 'surprise' in a story is by no means limited to who lives or who dies. It basically doesn't matter. Since you already know the good guys will win, arguing that enjoyment of a story is tied to 'tension and stakes' is already a nonsense, whatever the smaller uncertain details. A story can pan out in a number of unexpected ways from beginning to end without anyone's life really being threatened - that's hardly the only (or even principal) criterion for whether a story is enjoyable or even gripping.

And even if hero lives are threatened (and ignoring the fact that death in Dragon World generally just serves to enable a pleasant enough afterlife, for the people we see and care much about), the fact that the story has multiple sets of magical wish-granting objects baked into it (the key feature of Dragon Ball generally, not just Super) is more of an obstacle to death making any difference to anything, let alone a sense of 'tension', than anything else you might care to mention. Even the arc where 'gasp what if Piccolo dies' was legitimately at issue, that 'tension' had the answer given to it in that arc before he even died.

Again I maintain that whether anyone dies makes very little difference to the sense of enjoyment a story can give, and in a franchise like Dragon Ball, the idea that fans seriously regard 'tension' as the key draw Super is lacking is totally unconvincing to me.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Trouser » Wed Jan 13, 2021 7:55 pm

It exists. /j
When DB was brought back to us I was happy as hell. But when it aired and arc after an arc it was nothing more but dissappointment, I couldn't stop thinking that maybe Dragon Ball should stay dead forever. Everything I like about Super comes from Battle of Gods, but then again, the real BoG is labelled as "Z" (another disadvantage for Super and it's inferior retelling) so it's not really "Super".
Battle of Gods... Inferior to the original in all aspects.
Ressurection of F... Do I even have to explain what was wrong with this one (it was shit even as a movie, and Super managed to made it even worse...)?
Champa's Tournament... Boring and ugly, no stakes, first signs of brain dead Goku.
Future Trunks' arc... Nice, very nice at first, but constant filler and stupid ending destroyed it all. Goku Black's persona couldn't save it. I think the whole arc died when Fused Zamasu was born. They removed one thing that worked - Goku Black - and then rushed to the climax..
Tournament of Power... Long and boring with lots of holes (I blame writers, Toriyama forgot things too but never on the scale as Toei's writers - every episode felt like a different show with no stakes at all. And Vegeta who was repeating his speech in almost every episode? Ugh.). Almost year long story (or maybe even more?).
I, as a life long fan of Dragon Ball, was dissappointed on every level. Even GT didn't do that much of a harm to my point of view to Dragon Ball as whole. Super made me frustrated, dissappointed and... sad.
I thought that manga would fix everything but after Future Trunks arc it became bad (better than the anime but it's nothing to be happy about 'cos it's still bad).
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pm

Narrative tension isn't always about not knowing the outcome, it's simply a matter being suspended in the story world effectively enough to care about what happens on some level, hence how you can still feel tension even after watching a show many times. I can feel a huge sense of tension and stakes during the Ginyu battle on Namek, even though I know exactly how it ends -- the heroes have made huge progress against him, but Goku and the audience know he's secretly raring up to body-swap with Vegeta at the nearest opportunity, potentially rendering all their efforts meaningless. But then Goku lobs a frog in the way at exactly the right moment! It's the same across the whole franchise. When Goku has Jiren at his mercy, only for Ultra Instinct to backfire at the worst moment. When Trunks returns home from space and meets his parents, blissfully unaware that they've been possessed by an evil alien parasite.

As Ponta has frequently explained, in a lighthearted genre serial, we always know on some level that our protagonists are probably coming out alright, especially in Dragon Ball. Sometimes Dragon Ball has subverted that to great effect, but more often than not, the titular wish-granting orbs provide a workaround, and death is just a gateway to a cushy afterlife where the only significant change to your existence is that you now have a halo. Goku was seemingly killed off permanently at the end of the Cell arc and remained dead for seven years in-universe, but for manga readers, it only took like two months for him to return. Super has served its purpose in providing an enormous amount of context for what happens in between the Buu arc and the manga's distant finale. A seriously staggering amount of new information when you step back and look at it. We've had an entire new cosmic plane of higher gods opened up, a new tree of divine transformations, Freeza has been permanently revived, our heroes have travelled to other universes, an evil Kaioshin stole Goku's body, Daikaioshin has returned and met Uub... The status quo has changed drastically and many unexpected things have happened.

Seeing obvious bait threads with unoriginal non-arguments like this crop up every week really is a bummer. What's funny is that even though I've seen it all before, none of the OP's points even seem that negative. So there's a lot of transformations (not unique to Super), Super Saiyan is devalued (not unique to Super) and there's a few unanswered questions about certain characters' moral alignments?... And? If those are the only reasons Super is awful then strewth, sounds like a pretty darn good show/manga to me!

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:42 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pmSuper has served its purpose in providing an enormous amount of context for what happens in between the Buu arc and the manga's distant finale.
But the question is: did we and the franchise really need that "enormous amount of context"? Couldn't just be Tarble OVA and Movie 14 and then move on? Those contents should've been enough to satisfy any wish to get a lighthearted story, with predictable endings, casual stuff and to see Goten, Trunks and Marron with their proper height.

And what do you mean "manga's distant finale"? You mean in-universe? If so, we're closer to its events than we are to Majin Buu saga, in fact, the year has just changed yet again, merely three years away now.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pmFreeza has been permanently revived,
Whether that is a good thing or not is debatable, though.
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pmour heroes have travelled to other universes,
When? Universe 6 saga takes place in between Universe 7 and Universe 6, doesn't it? And Universe Survival saga takes place... Huh... Nowhere? I don't remember but I think they didn't specify where it was.

Only Goku made a brief travel to Universe 10. Does that really count? Well, then again, we did get to see the Megaverse a bit, a place outside the Universe, so there's that. It was cool, but I don't think it'll ever be explored.
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:50 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:23 am Let's be honest...

Some of us only watched Super because Dragon Ball was returning to television and because of nostalgia. Other than that, Super is awful in my eyes. These are (IMO) some of Super's most glaring flaws that hold it back from being the Dragon Ball Z sequel some people wanted it to be.

1. The story feels like it was written by fanfic writers given the Toriyama Seal of Approval (because it is drawn by a fanfic creator).

2. The transformations are seemingly endless (God, Blue, Golden Freeza, Rose, Blue Evolution, Ultra Instinct Omen, Toppo's God of Destruction form, Jiren's Full Power form, Ultra Instinct, Broly's Ikari form, Super Saiyan C-Type, Rage, Full Power Super Saiyan, Moro's 73 absorbed form, and whatever comes down the road) and are either recolors, forms stolen from GT or Z, glorified versions of Kaioken or Villainous Mode from the Heroes and Xenoverse games, or are completely original, like Ultra Instinct.

3. Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 has been downgraded even more than it already was in Z, and DBS and Heroes make mockeries of these forms! At least when Goten and Trunks did it in Dragon Ball Z, they only did it for shock factor and to show how far the Z Warriors have come since it first appeared, and they actually made good use of it with Gotenks! Cabba's reason for being able to transform so easily was at least explained, even if that explanation was BS. What did Caulifla and Kale do with it? Kale became Broly with tits and then fused with Caulifla only to have a period all over the ring of the Tournament of Power and to get hit by what is honestly one of the coolest Kamehamehas ever performed.

4. There are too many fucking plotholes that can be explained, but never did get explained. How did Vegeta gain Super Saiyan God and Blue? When and how did the Universe 6 Saiyans get so strong? Why are Universe 6 Saiyans thin wimps? Just how powerful is Whis? Is Grand Priest good or evil? Is Grand Zeno good or evil? Will any of these questions get answered? Probably not, and that's the problem. More questions rise than there are answers.

These are four of Dragon Ball Super's biggest problems. What do you guys think of Dragon Ball Super? What problems do you have with it? What should have been done better? Do you think we should've just stuck with GT and Dragon Ball Z Abridged or should we have made our own version of Dragon Ball Super?
basically everything is wrong with your comment ...
always been transformations in dbz does not really change in comparison ... even the villains
Do you ask for explanations of design changes? LOL
goku and vegeta trained with whis to get that transformation something explained
evolved saiyans ....
They are parallel universes, it is logical that there are counterparts
the other you haven't even explained

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 9:50 am

Grimlock wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:42 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pmSuper has served its purpose in providing an enormous amount of context for what happens in between the Buu arc and the manga's distant finale.
But the question is: did we and the franchise really need that "enormous amount of context"? Couldn't just be Tarble OVA and Movie 14 and then move on? Those contents should've been enough to satisfy any wish to get a lighthearted story, with predictable endings, casual stuff and to see Goten, Trunks and Marron with their proper height.
Well, that's your prerogative, I was simply saying that the setting can and has changed drastically in spite of the fact that we know Goku and the gang will make it out okay to meet Uub at the Tenkaichi Budokai, so even on a grander scale, tension and stakes still exist.
And what do you mean "manga's distant finale"? You mean in-universe? If so, we're closer to its events than we are to Majin Buu saga, in fact, the year has just changed yet again, merely three years away now.
As in, "Goku defeats Majin Buu in Dragon Ball #517, then the timeframe skips forward 10 years."
When? Universe 6 saga takes place in between Universe 7 and Universe 6, doesn't it? And Universe Survival saga takes place... Huh... Nowhere? I don't remember but I think they didn't specify where it was.

Only Goku made a brief travel to Universe 10. Does that really count? Well, then again, we did get to see the Megaverse a bit, a place outside the Universe, so there's that. It was cool, but I don't think it'll ever be explored.
That all counts in my book.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:05 pm

LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pmSeeing obvious bait threads with unoriginal non-arguments like this crop up every week really is a bummer.
Co-signed.

What's even more dispiriting is the regularity with which these bad-faith non-arguments (the OP, for instance, appears to have been made with the back-door intention of bigging up their own fanfic, so of course we have to start by doing down Toyotarou as a 'fanfic writer' despite the fact that he's written and drawn about 170 'old-money' Chapters-worth of main-story Dragon Ball professionally, by this point) make regular headway with reams of equally poorly-justified snipes from people who are willing to engage on that level, but when the invitation goes out to discuss the actual material in question seriously and thoughtfully, answer there comes comparatively very little indeed.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:14 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:05 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pmSeeing obvious bait threads with unoriginal non-arguments like this crop up every week really is a bummer.
Co-signed.

What's even more dispiriting is the regularity with which these bad-faith non-arguments (the OP, for instance, appears to have been made with the back-door intention of bigging up their own fanfic, so of course we have to start by doing down Toyotarou as a 'fanfic writer' despite the fact that he's written and drawn about 170 'old-money' Chapters-worth of main-story Dragon Ball professionally, by this point) make regular headway with reams of equally poorly-justified snipes from people who are willing to engage on that level, but when the invitation goes out to discuss the actual material in question seriously and thoughtfully, answer there comes comparatively very little indeed.
No, what's truly dispiriting is how these complaint threads always complain about things that were already in the original Dragon Ball series.

Endless transformations -> DBZ has like 10+ forms across its main characters.

Power creep making Saiyan forms useless -> Already started in the Androids arc, with 17 and 18 clowning on Super Saiyan Vegeta.

Plot holes -> There were several in DBZ.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:21 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:14 pmNo, what's truly dispiriting is how these complaint threads always complain about things that were already in the original Dragon Ball series.
Yep, the double-standards are also worthy of condemnation, and I've complained about them in this very topic. But I think that likewise stems from a determination to engage with just a glib and slanted set of pro-forma talking points instead of the actual subject matter, which we all purport to be fans of.

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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:28 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:05 pm
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:18 pmSeeing obvious bait threads with unoriginal non-arguments like this crop up every week really is a bummer.
Co-signed.

What's even more dispiriting is the regularity with which these bad-faith non-arguments (the OP, for instance, appears to have been made with the back-door intention of bigging up their own fanfic, so of course we have to start by doing down Toyotarou as a 'fanfic writer' despite the fact that he's written and drawn about 170 'old-money' Chapters-worth of main-story Dragon Ball professionally, by this point) make regular headway with reams of equally poorly-justified snipes from people who are willing to engage on that level, but when the invitation goes out to discuss the actual material in question seriously and thoughtfully, answer there comes comparatively very little indeed.
Yeah, I'm genuinely so sick of it. The relentless negativity makes me want to delete my account sometimes... until I realise there is no option to. :problem:

I never realised how people seem to be genuinely envious of Toyotaro and so feel the need to downplay his current professional status to their own level just so they can feel better about themselves. Like, I thought it was an exaggeration but some seem to genuinely be deluded enough to believe that they are more worthy of Toriyama's peerage than Toyotaro in spite of the fact that they i) probably aren't even Japanese and can't speak the language, ii) only have experience moaning about things on forums and bulletpointing vague outlines about how THEY would do it right.

As SupremeKai said, it would be nice to get a criticism that isn't rooted in the original series for once. It's not "dragging down the original series" to point out that it too had an enormous amount of transformations, an abundance of tournament arcs, etc. We all have some things we don't like about Super but it seems like one-in-a-hundred posts actually have an inkling of an original, thoughtful critique rather than regurgitating the exact same trash ad nauseum.

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super michael
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Re: Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

Post by super michael » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:16 pm

I don't have any problem with Toyotaro to be honest, I mean it isn't perfect and he does some mistakes but those mistakes are not enough to ruin the manga. When I read the manga I am excited to read the next chapter. If I have to rate the manga, I would give it a 9/10.
I have never thought the manga was annoying and when it is funny I found it funny.

However Toei are the one who ruins DBS anime with their forced gags and doing countless gag to make their character appear that they have downgraded. Toei was so predictable that I could even guess what would happen before it happened and I would say I knew it, Toei are so bad that they are so predictable. There was time I thought, how many times is this going to keep happening this is getting old now.
If I have to rate the anime, I would give it a 5/10 a passing grade but with many things wrong.

It would be cool if transformations like Super Saiyan 4 would make it into DBS or maybe combine Super Saiyan 4 with God Ki, since that would result in a good design. Super Saiyan 4 is already a good transformation.
Last edited by super michael on Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:02 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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