Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super

[Trouser]

"Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super"

Toriyama.

[PurestEvil]

"Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super"

Toriyama.

Everything wrong with Dragon Ball in general, arguably!

[LoganForkHands73]

Everything wrong with Dragon Ball in general, arguably!

... How?

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

1. The story feels like it was written by fanfic writers given the Toriyama Seal of Approval (because it is drawn by a fanfic creator).

Well there are only so many possibilities out there that haven't been done already in the original manga, movies, and video games. If you've read fanwork then you've probably come across most ideas and plot lines in DBS. I still tried to give them a chance but some ideas I kinda wish never made their way to the official series. When a series ends, I try to forget about the parts I thought were bad and only remember or rewatch what I enjoyed.

I think arguing if it's objectively good or wrong is unnecessary since only time will tell. What's good will hold up over time without anyone having to argue in favor of it while anything average or derivative usually gets forgotten. In the latest arc ranking thread, the Saiyan arc ranks #1. Even if someone wouldn't rank it as their favorite, it's still widely considered a classic by DB and Shonen fans in general.

Sometimes fans make things that far outclass what the big companies involved with Dragon Ball can do, but sadly, it seems that it's usually limited to games (Dragon Ball Demon Breaker, Hyper Dragon Ball Z, the fuckton of mods for official games, Dragon Ball Devolution, etc.) and Minecraft mods (Dragon Block C and the still in development mod, Dragon Block V; search it up on YouTube, it's incredible)

[BWri]

"Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super"

Toriyama.

Everything wrong with Dragon Ball in general, arguably!

And everything right. It's all on him, though I give the editors, mainly Torishima-san, tons of credit all the time.

[PurestEvil]

"Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super"

Toriyama.

Everything wrong with Dragon Ball in general, arguably!

And everything right. It's all on him, though I give the editors, mainly Torishima-san, tons of credit all the time.

Precisely correct

[TheMikado]

"Everything Wrong with Dragon Ball Super"

Toriyama.

Everything wrong with Dragon Ball in general, arguably!

And everything right. It's all on him, though I give the editors, mainly Torishima-san, tons of credit all the time.

Accurate. All of it

[Jinto]

The subpar animation and pacing is the only thing truly "wrong" with DBS (anime)

The anime community in general is a bit hypocrite. If One punch man/Kimetsu no yaiba/ FMA brotherhood/ HxH had DBS level of animation, i bet ya people would run them to the ground instead of giving us the "good writing, deep character" critics101 or just outright forget they existed. (One punch man S2 ? Anyone?)

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

The subpar animation and pacing is the only thing truly "wrong" with DBS (anime)

Singular frames and animation are not the same, yes Dragon Ball Super had some ugly artwork at times but Dragon Ball Z's artwork looked like shit 80% of the time

[SupremeKai25]

The animation was regularly incredible in the FT and ToP arcs. That complaint stopped being valid around the time the Goku vs. Hit episode aired.

In the FT and ToP arcs, the animation was consistently good, ranging from decent (examples that come to mind are Goku vs. Zamasu in ep. 53 and the Anilaza fight) to outright phenomenal (ep. 57-66-109-110-116-129-130-131...).

The art might not have been on point all the time, but let's not act like this is a problem just with Super, because Z had plenty of goofy-looking art too at certain moments. Literally just google "DBZ bad art" and see for yourself.

[Jinto]

People stopped complaining about animation because it got boring but it was still barely watchable most of the time.

Also Animation is not just the moving frame.
DBZ balanced its bad animation with bombastic presentation and big (very big) explosion whereas DBS got some feeble rock formation, infinite building and an arena shaped like a giant spinning top
In fact, people started praising DBS right after the episode with Naotoshi shida 's animation (SSR vs Goku). This proves to us that it was never about "writing"
Let's not underestimate how superficial we are at the core, Redline is praised as some masterpiece movie even though it was just a death race in space with your typical black horse story.

[TekTheNinja]

The subpar animation and pacing is the only thing truly "wrong" with DBS (anime)

The anime community in general is a bit hypocrite. If One punch man/Kimetsu no yaiba/ FMA brotherhood/ HxH had DBS level of animation, i bet ya people would run them to the ground instead of giving us the "good writing, deep character" critics101 or just outright forget they existed. (One punch man S2 ? Anyone?)

Personally I still though One Punch Man season 2 was good, as did most people from what I've seen. It was just notable for going from godlike animation in S1 to anime that was just average.

It's awfully presumptive to think the anime community would overlook the writing of any of the above listed series if they had bad animation. These all started from popular manga. My main counter argument would be to look to Berserk. It's almost never had good animation in its adaptations, but that's never caused the series to go overlooked.

I for one always liked to clown on DBS' bad animation, partially since it's laughable that such a big franchise would get subpar treatment so often, but it's NEVER been even close to my main problems with the series. The horrendously bad writing is the problem, and there's no deflecting from that.

[Jinto]

The subpar animation and pacing is the only thing truly "wrong" with DBS (anime)

The anime community in general is a bit hypocrite. If One punch man/Kimetsu no yaiba/ FMA brotherhood/ HxH had DBS level of animation, i bet ya people would run them to the ground instead of giving us the "good writing, deep character" critics101 or just outright forget they existed. (One punch man S2 ? Anyone?)

Personally I still though One Punch Man season 2 was good, as did most people from what I've seen. It was just notable for going from godlike animation in S1 to anime that was just average.

It's awfully presumptive to think the anime community would overlook the writing of any of the above listed series if they had bad animation. These all started from popular manga. My main counter argument would be to look to Berserk. It's almost never had good animation in its adaptations, but that's never caused the series to go overlooked.

I for one always liked to clown on DBS' bad animation, partially since it's laughable that such a big franchise would get subpar treatment so often, but it's NEVER been even close to my main problems with the series. The horrendously bad writing is the problem, and there's no deflecting from that.

It's funny you mention Berserk since it helps build my point the first praise people give the manga is "it looks godly", and everyone recommend to skip the anime with the CGI, so much for "good writing".
I can affirm you with certainty that nobody would give a shit about HxH or FMA or Kimetsu no yaiba "good writing" if not for the animation.
My point is, claim like "bad writing" or "good writing" comes after the animation quality.
One punch man s1 is a prime example, where people suddenly see allegory of "cancer" in Saitama since he was bald and praised "the writing" for empowering people with cancer or the bicycle hero making a big speech about being "powerless but hero" was praised to high heaven as "peak writing" even though it's one predictable trope.
But when season 2 dropped, everyone where like "this is boring", "the guy just kill in one shot, how repetitive",...

You know: "where poor people are called insane, rich people are eccentric" and also "Be rich and people will make citation out of your word"

[Skar]

The subpar animation and pacing is the only thing truly "wrong" with DBS (anime)

The anime community in general is a bit hypocrite. If One punch man/Kimetsu no yaiba/ FMA brotherhood/ HxH had DBS level of animation, i bet ya people would run them to the ground instead of giving us the "good writing, deep character" critics101 or just outright forget they existed. (One punch man S2 ? Anyone?)

I think the problem with these kinds of sweeping generalizations is that you have to assume 99% of anime fans aren't given honest opinions or unaware that they're only judging everything based on the animation. It's usually considered a sign of how much effort was put into the work but it's only one factor since there are plenty of shows or films with high production value but not praised for anything beyond that.

I don't think it's really criticizing DBS to point out that it doesn't rank highly among modern anime. It's a revival which in general aren't even judged as harshly and most people move on from them once they end aside from the biggest fans who still discuss it.

[Jinto]

The subpar animation and pacing is the only thing truly "wrong" with DBS (anime)

The anime community in general is a bit hypocrite. If One punch man/Kimetsu no yaiba/ FMA brotherhood/ HxH had DBS level of animation, i bet ya people would run them to the ground instead of giving us the "good writing, deep character" critics101 or just outright forget they existed. (One punch man S2 ? Anyone?)

...but it's only one factor since there are plenty of shows or films with high production value but not praised for anything beyond that...

This only apply to movie (animated or not) since people's standard/expectation rise when you want them to spend +1hr of their time to watch fiction. Plus the quality (visual) being put on blockbuster nowadays is such that the new standard is the peak and everything else is shelved or put under the "underrated movie" list. Now the new goal is how vibrant and colorful and comedic can your movie look and be without it being "for kids"

If animation is just one factor, it's a pretty big one to not say essential.
Another example ? Kimetsu no yaiba ? It's just a group swordsman/woman fighting demon with sob backstory sprinkled around but give them the best animation in recent decade and suddenly the cliché premise become "good writing".

I very much enjoy sakuga and can watch an anime all day just to see pretty animation but critic such as "good writing-bad writing" are overrused and mostly wrong.
The point is we can think "good writing" as much as we can think of "bad writing" but what are they ? Are they story choice? True Inconsistencies ? True Plot hole ? Lack of overly sentimental speech about the human condition ? Character assassination (looking at you AoT ) ? Or just an excuse to not appear "superficial" by saying "the animation sucks"
Thanks for reading my rant !

[Skar]

The point is we can think "good writing" as much as we can think of "bad writing" but what are they ? Are they story choice? True Inconsistencies ? True Plot hole ? Lack of overly sentimental speech about the human condition ? Character assassination (looking at you AoT ) ? Or just an excuse to not appear "superficial" by saying "the animation sucks" Thanks for reading my rant !

It's all based on opinion so I'm not saying any of them are wrong. It sounds like you're generalizing that all acclaimed anime are praised for the wrong reasons and the majority of anime fans are unable to notice. It's an unnecessary assumption to make because you'd probably hear different reasons for why a particular anime is considered a great or a classic.

This logic doesn't even apply within the DB fan base or on this forum. I recall a Toei director said that they raised the number of frames per episode in the ToP and that the final battle had double that number which is why it had the best animation in DBS while Broly was the highest budget DB film. In both cases, there were DB fans who argued good animation was all they had going for them and preferred the stories of earlier sagas or movies.

[Jinto]

The point is we can think "good writing" as much as we can think of "bad writing" but what are they ? Are they story choice? True Inconsistencies ? True Plot hole ? Lack of overly sentimental speech about the human condition ? Character assassination (looking at you AoT ) ? Or just an excuse to not appear "superficial" by saying "the animation sucks" Thanks for reading my rant !

It's all based on opinion so I'm not saying any of them are wrong. It sounds like you're generalizing that all acclaimed anime are praised for the wrong reasons and the majority of anime fans are unable to notice. It's an unnecessary assumption to make because you'd probably hear different reasons for why a particular anime is considered a great or a classic.

This logic doesn't even apply within the DB fan base or on this forum. I recall a Toei director said that they raised the number of frames per episode in the ToP and that the final battle had double that number which is why it had the best animation in DBS while Broly was the highest budget DB film. In both cases, there were DB fans who argued good animation was all they had going for them and preferred the stories of earlier sagas or movies.

Well it's not about praising an anime for a reason, it's trashing another for the same reason you praise others.

An example would be when Jiren backstory dropped, yes it was cliché but the anime didn't overplay it, the point was not about how sad is Jiren's backstory (which even the anime acknowledge as cliché and quickly expediated) it was about how far has a cliché trauma pushed Jiren to be the strongest mortal in the multiverse but cost him his trust.
But hey ! It's this old anime revival that has watchable animation and a bad buzz (5 ) what a cliché backstory, what shitty one note character.
But look ! Little Eren, his mom got eaten by a Titan, so sad, such a masterpiece, so fresh, I feel connected, kill all the titan Eren, so deep !
Or Tanjiro ? Oh poor Tanjiro, his family got killed by an ancient evil, so fresh, such a masterpiece, I feel connected, kill all the demon Tanjiro !

The difference between them ? Better animator and maybe +5 frame per second (not an expert animator)

[SupremeKai25]

DBS shits on Demon Slayer.

DBS shits on Attack on Titan.

DBS shits on whatever anime you can think of from the last decade.

For all the hate Super got in this thread, I sure remember streaming sites regularly going down due to the huge amount of people connecting to watch the latest episode, and all the reaction videos with thousands of people gathered in one stadium to watch the episode.

Thousands of people wouldn't gather in a stadium to watch a garbage product.

The funny thing is that even in this forum the most popular threads remain the Episode discussion threads from the Anime. For all the hate the Anime got in this thread, the years 2016-17-18 were the peak, clearly the franchise was never as active as it was back then. Since BoG anyway.

[Skar]

Well it's not about praising an anime for a reason, it's trashing another for the same reason you praise others.

I don't know where you're finding these anime fans. I think you're exaggerating and claiming unrelated arguments are being made by the same people. When I look for a new recommended anime to watch, I only see them praising what they consider to be great anime and none of them trashing DBS. Most of the criticism for DBS comes from DB fans because I've barely seen it mentioned in anime communities after it ended. Jiren is treated like any forgettable anime antagonist and here is the only place I've seen him brought up after the ToP.

What you're arguing is the opposite of what I've seen. Look at any acclaim series, film, video game, etc and you'll only hear people mentioning what's good about it. It's only when there isn't much merit to speak of that they feel the need to trash other work which seems to be the basis of this argument. It's not arguing that what they're defending is good and only other work is just as bad but apparently the majority of anime fans are unable to notice.

[Jinto]

Well it's not about praising an anime for a reason, it's trashing another for the same reason you praise others.

I don't know where you're finding these anime fans. I think you're exaggerating and claiming unrelated arguments are being made by the same people. When I look for a new recommended anime to watch, I only see them praising what they consider to be great anime and none of them trashing DBS. Most of the criticism for DBS comes from DB fans because I've barely seen it mentioned in anime communities after it ended. Jiren is treated like any forgettable anime antagonist and here is the only place I've seen him brought up after the ToP.

What you're arguing is the opposite of what I've seen. Look at any acclaim series, film, video game, etc and you'll only hear people mentioning what's good about it. It's only when there isn't much merit to speak of that they feel the need to trash other work which seems to be the basis of this argument. It's not arguing that what they're defending is good and only other work is just as bad but apparently the majority of anime fans are unable to notice.

Well, it's indeed a different matter when we talk about DB fan view on DBS as they look deeper but even then talking about "everything wrong" like an almost objective list is strange as we are one Big BROKEN fanbase.

You say "..when there isn't much merit..", to which I respond (although generally, I accept) "how can anime fan talk about the merit as some fair critics when the primary condition for having merit (as the example I provided) is good animation which DBS OBJECTIVELY doesn't have ?"

AND that lead to my point stating that the most pertinent flaw of DBS was its ANIMATION.
We can easily draw the map ! Everybody held their breath from ep 1-4 (with ep2 having some promises to it) then ep5 dropped, DBS was a shit interquel confirmed, from there on everything it did was arbitrary "bad to decent at best" and after Black saga (especially ep56 with Naotoshi shida) it was "decent to fun nostalgia" which is still the general opinion about DBS.

It's not that it didn't have merit, it is that it didn't deserve to have any merit in the eyes of critics, "bad writing", "bad character" and so on, felt more like excuses than true investigation.