Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

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Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Peach » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:21 am

We've seen Dragon Ball What If's before in the video games. What If's seem popular on YouTube as well.

Disney Plus is launching a Marvel What If? series based on the MCU. DC does what if's all the time - like Superman: Red Sun.

I can't help but wonder if Toei is missing out on an opportunity by not creating Dragon Ball what if's.

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:45 am

I'd take that over what we've been getting any day. There's so much potential with what ifs as you could come up with new stories by changing any plot point in the series. The biggest problem with these is that they're more story focused, rather than merchandise focused, so the chances of getting these are slim to none.

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:30 am

It would be interesting I think. Plus you wouldn’t need to worry about long term story arcs as it could be an anthology series contained in 1-3 episode sets (depending on the magnitude of the story)

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:36 am

MasenkoHA wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:30 am
It would be interesting I think. Plus you wouldn’t need to worry about long term story arcs as it could be an anthology series contained in 1-3 episode sets (depending on the magnitude of the story)
Exactly. They also wouldn't have to worry about how they'd impact the larger picture moving forward, giving them freedom to do whatever they want.

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 1:45 am
I'd take that over what we've been getting any day. There's so much potential with what ifs as you could come up with new stories by changing any plot point in the series. The biggest problem with these is that they're more story focused, rather than merchandise focused, so the chances of getting these are slim to none.
technically a lot of dbz movies are that .. cooler, broly z, janemba etc

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:53 am

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 am
technically a lot of dbz movies are that .. cooler, broly z, janemba etc
Both Cooler and Broly fit within the timeline, with Cooler even mentioning the events of the main story. These what ifs would be stories that couldn't fit at all, like the Saiyans taking down Freeza before he takes over their planet, Raditz never going to earth, Goku surviving the Cell games, etc...

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Xeogran » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:59 am

Yes! I think a season about these kind of weird scenarios would be a wild and fun ride. We are also in an era where What Ifs are pretty popular. One anime I've been watching just did that for their series and it was great.
Last edited by Xeogran on Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by MasenkoHA » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:00 am

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:53 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 am
technically a lot of dbz movies are that .. cooler, broly z, janemba etc
Both Cooler and Broly fit within the timeline, with Cooler even mentioning the events of the main story. These what ifs would be stories that couldn't fit at all, like the Saiyans taking down Freeza before he takes over their planet, Raditz never going to earth, Goku surviving the Cell games, etc...
Broly doesn’t really fit into the timeline though.

Mentioning the main events doesn’t mean the movie itself fits either. You can argue the first Cooler movie fits because there’s very little issues but the second Cooler movie doesn’t fit at all.


I wouldn’t call any of the movies “what if” though at least not like “What if Vegeta was sent to earth?” “what if Cell became good?” Etc etc

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Alruneia » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:36 am

If Dragon Ball was made to have a permanent presence on TV, unlike the situation it's in now, then making alternate stories and what-ifs would be a good way to spread the "main" anime episodes out across the year. Quoting myself from a while back:
Alruneia wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:42 pm
My preferred schedule is 26 episodes a year of Dragon Ball Super (or its replacement) and 26 episodes a year of something else, be that a Dragon Ball Heroes anime, a what-if series, "Episode of [character]"-type specials, or just professionally-made Broly MADs, or even all of the above.
Alruneia wrote:
Tue Nov 26, 2019 1:11 pm
...there'd be Dragon Ball Super (or whatever the next DB anime name would be), and the other half would be things like the SDBH anime, sidestories, backstories, alternate universe stories and other things like that. You could split it up by cour, so you'd have 13 episodes of one thing and then 13 episodes of the other, or you could alternate every other week. I think the cour alternative is better, though, since going back and forth every week could be a bit whiplash-inducing.

The obvious advantage of doing it like this is that the main story will get extra development time. It becomes easier for the anime to follow the manga, for example, if that's what they want to do, since the manga will have more time to progress as well, and episodes will be developed over a longer period of time. That last bit assumes that the episodes that aren't the main story have lower priority, though. Additionally, it would allow for a lot of variety. Canonicity wouldn't be any issue in the episodes that aren't the main story, so story writers would be able to go wild and write tons of interesting things.

Of course, there's also the disadvantage of the main story progressing at half speed. Not everyone is going to be interested in the "alternate story" episodes, so for them it'd feel like they're just getting less content. So it's not all sunshine and roses. I still think it's a good idea, though, since it doesn't really seem like there are any plans to let the franchise rest.
I don't think that only making what-ifs would be a good idea, though. They've gotta be part of a bigger picture. If they have to be on their own, then even the SDBH promo anime would be better, in my opinion.
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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:04 pm

I mean, sure? Maybe? Some short spin-offs along the way too. Don't know what to expect from those, but they might turn out to be okay, who knows.
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 am
technically a lot of dbz movies are that .. cooler, broly z, janemba etc
Except they technically aren't. They were never labeled as such.

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:27 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:04 pm
Except they technically aren't. They were never labeled as such.
You're splitting pedantic hairs here. They were always known to be, understood as, and accepted as "what if" stories.

If I absolutely had to, I could scour the Japanese text in a bunch of these old theatrical pamphlets and proooooooobably find something to that effect... but that just seems like an unbelievable, pointless waste of time.

Here's a relatively-contemporary snippet from an article in the August 1995 issue of Animerica. It's by Takashi Oshiguchi, who contributed the "From the Forest" column to the magazine each month, but also owned and operated the "Manga no Mori" store in Japan and also contributed to Animage:
Toei's features tend to be the side-stories of the Toei animated or live-action shows on TV that year. They're also stories that fit within a 30- to 40-minute frame, and--so as to not confuse the children--the plot does not conform with the continuity of the TV show. Japanese animated shows (and live-action shows) change annually, so the Anime Festival's titles change every year, as well. And thus, most of its features are self-contained stories. But then, there are shows such as DRAGON BALL, which have been going on for nearly ten years. With two theatrical releases a year, you can see how quickly (and how easily) carefully plotted TV continuity can be breached, and why the TV continuities are therefore avoided in Toei Anime Festival releases.

After all, in the main DRAGON BALL continuity, main character Goku grows up and raises a family; his children grow up, and they eventually become the main characters themselves. As they grow up, various new friends and villains show up. The theatrical feature is just a short film that comes out every half-year, so it can't cover the half-year of development in the official story. On the other hand, if a feature just tells its own story--for example, one with Goku still in his childhood--children might get confused.

Theatrical features must tell an original story that stands on its own at the theater, while still assuming that the children are familiar with the developments in the TV show. So usually the central characters in the feature are those who have been associated with the main character on TV by the time they show up in the theater, and they then get to face off villains original to the feature.
You might say it's unfair of the Toei Anime Festival to expect its attendees to follow the TV show in order to enjoy the features. But remember that the primary audience is, of course, children. The grand premise is that children should be able to fully enjoy and be excited about seeing DRAGON BALL at the theater, and I think this is what is expected by children who both watch the TV show and attend the Toei Anime Festivals, as well.
Anyway, if anything, Toei's gone the total opposite direction of "what if" stories since the success of One Piece Film: Strong World in 2009, where most of these really big Jump movies get promoted with original author involvement and written to effectively be "within" the "continuity" of the series.
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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:39 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:53 am
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 am
technically a lot of dbz movies are that .. cooler, broly z, janemba etc
Both Cooler and Broly fit within the timeline, with Cooler even mentioning the events of the main story. These what ifs would be stories that couldn't fit at all, like the Saiyans taking down Freeza before he takes over their planet, Raditz never going to earth, Goku surviving the Cell games, etc...
Grimlock wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:04 pm
I mean, sure? Maybe? Some short spin-offs along the way too. Don't know what to expect from those, but they might turn out to be okay, who knows.
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:44 am
technically a lot of dbz movies are that .. cooler, broly z, janemba etc
Except they technically aren't. They were never labeled as such.
necessary? It is basically put goku and his friends in fight x, what would happen if Frieza had a brother? What if the legendary SSJ existed? etc etc

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Matches Malone » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:54 pm

Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:39 pm
necessary? It is basically put goku and his friends in fight x, what would happen if Frieza had a brother? What if the legendary SSJ existed? etc etc
Freeza having a brother is an extension of a previous plot, just as Gero surviving and creating the androids is an extension of the RRA arc. A what if would be Freeza not existing for example, or Goku somehow not dying against Raditz.

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:59 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:54 pm
Freeza having a brother is an extension of a previous plot, just as Gero surviving and creating the androids is an extension of the RRA arc. A what if would be Freeza not existing for example, or Goku somehow not dying against Raditz.
You're just making arbitrary rules for what you think it should be.

I understand what Marvel does, but this is what Toei has done.

You're allowed to want Toei to do what Marvel has done, but to say they're not also "what if" stories is... again, splitting pedantic hairs just to be argumentative for... reasons???????

They're both kinds of "what if" stories. This doesn't need to be argued. Have the actual conversation, please!
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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:18 pm

I still don't see anywhere in there labeling them as "what-if". I see that they ensured the movies were done in a way that don't confuse the audience, and for that, it's for the best that the movies tell their own thing, apart from the "main continuity".

That does not make them "what if". What-if is a hypothetical scenario, where things might happen or not, it can provide a different view, add something not supposed to be there, for the sake of exploration. To that same effect, events not taking place in that so-called "main timeline" does not necessarily mean it's "what-if". Dragon Ball is no longer this long, straight line of events that don't/can't breach into other events. It has different timelines, continuities, and dimensions. Dragon Ball a big tree, so to speak. What-if events are not part of this tree.

We are sure the events of these movies happened, they're as legitimate as the events that happen in the "main timeline", as stated by Toriyama and that concept is currently being officially explored in recent games, such as Heroes and Xenoverse.

Is it being "pedantic"? Don't know, but if you want call it that, so be it. But I think it's precisely because of wrong terms that give birth to this weird notion from people that the movies can't be more than what they are (i.e. their stuff interacting with the "main timeline" stuff) and also why people are always eager to say when it happens, these sort of "crossovers", that they don't make sense, even if the explanation hit them in the face.

If the movies are supposed to be what-if, hypothetical events that don't/can't/never happen, then not only it wouldn't be possible to make crossovers, it would denigrate their status, which maybe wouldn't hurt the movies themselves, but what about Dragon Ball GT? That whole series is a one big "what-if"? I doubt anyone from Toei or Shueisha sees it that way, which also makes me wonder why they haven't rebranded that series as such yet (except for Yusuke Watanabe, who actually called it what-if, if I remember correctly. But his claim doesn't seem to have resonated since 2013).


What Matches Malone said is a perfect example of what-if. It's not "arbitrary rules", it's precisely what the word conveys. It's not "what if Freeza had a brother", no, he has a brother for a fact somewhere out there.

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:21 pm

I agree the movies were pretty damn close to the concept of What If's. They definitely don't fit in the main continuity.

What if the heroes weren't preparing for the Cell Games and the world was at peace and an old saiyan legend showed up as a threat?
What if Goku defeated Freeza without the need to escape to Yadrat (genki dama?), while also not having Vegeta around (dead?) and not having SS under his belt, if unlocked at all?

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by VegettoEX » Wed Jan 13, 2021 3:56 pm

This is an absolutely exhausting and pointless charade that I'm not willing to further entertain or partake in. My point's been made. Please carry on the actual conversation / question being asked.
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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:38 pm

Matches Malone wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:54 pm
Tai Lung wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:39 pm
necessary? It is basically put goku and his friends in fight x, what would happen if Frieza had a brother? What if the legendary SSJ existed? etc etc
Freeza having a brother is an extension of a previous plot, just as Gero surviving and creating the androids is an extension of the RRA arc. A what if would be Freeza not existing for example, or Goku somehow not dying against Raditz.
That would be if it was based on something "canon" but Frieza never mentioned a brother before ...
by the time broly appeared ... there were already many SSJ who killed the legend

-----------
Anyway, all are mere technicalities ...
there is almost no difference in what marvel or dc has done with what DB did before ...
What if there were more androids? (13) what would happen if goku and vegeta did the fusion dance? what if chiaotzu was an emperor?

Image

the only difference is that toei never created a multiverse with the films ... most were individual and without connection

the "what ifs" are also considered alternate timelines in marvel that doesn't become something canon or anything ... like spider-gwen

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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by FortuneSSJ » Wed Jan 13, 2021 5:42 pm

Super Vegeta Den / Dragon Ball Sai from Dragon Garow Lee is so amazing that it's shame it's not offical neither he never continued that.
It's a what-if story about Vegeta being sent to earth instead of Kakarot. Kakarot comes later with Nappa.

it's a simple premise but extremely effective thanks to how good Lee is. Vegeta is one of the most popular DB characters so that what-if story should sell easily, if it became official.
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Re: Should Toei start making Dragon Ball "What If's" ?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:47 pm

This is something that I always wanted to see for years. It could be a lot of fun if you get the right people working on the show.
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