Everything Dragon Ball Super Did Right!

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Since I made a topic about everything that sucks in Super, it's only fair that I do a topic on the good parts.

1. Nohorito Sumitomo's soundtrack for Dragon Ball Super is one of the best soundtracks in the whole franchise and his work on Super: Broly is phenomenal.

2. Dragon Ball Super: Broly's art style gave Dragon Ball a much-needed new look. I personally don't like Yamamuro's character designs.

3. Not to shit on GT, but Super did something GT failed to do: make good use of everybody. In both the manga and anime, all of the Z Warriors got their time to shine, especially Vegeta. For the first time since the Cell Saga, Vegeta has a transformation exclusive to him and only him.

4. We got to see what happened to Future Trunks' timeline after Dragon Ball Z, and the return of an evil Goku spiced it up even more.

5. Goku Black was actually a really cool villain, and he even got what he wanted; which only Lord Slug and King Piccolo managed to do.

6. Super Saiyan 4 might not ever be coming back in canon, but Broly's Ikari form is a nice little homage to it.

7. Super has some fantastic concepts, which fans have created their own stories about. If they were fleshed out more, we'd have an incredible sequel to Dragon Ball Z on our hands.

8. Whereas Dragon Ball Kai failed to continue the momentum that Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! had started, Battle of Gods, Ressurection F, and, by extension, Super, managed to bring back and amp up the momentum it had.

9. Vegito's return. Just..Vegito.



10. Sean Schemmel and Christopher Sabat screaming their lungs out will never cease to amaze me. Seriously, how do they hire Dragon Ball voice actors? I bet they're like

Toei: あなたは長い間悲鳴を上げることができますか？(Are you good at screaming for a long time?)

Random voice actor they found on the street: はい、できます。 (Yes, I can.)

Toei: すごい！あなたは採用されました！(Great! You're hired!)

Need I go on?

[sunsetshimmer]

1. Introduced female SSJs for the first time in actual show, not just video games. Execution is different topic, but at least we got them after many years.

2. Except for RoF and pre-ToP episodes, Gohan was done right. The same applies to GT Gohan as well. Argue how much you want, but much beloved Cell saga SSJ2 Gohan was the most out-of-character version of him ever made. Scholar Gohan is real Gohan and i'm glad at least Gohan was spared from dumb fanservice and got what he actually wanted and deserved instead of trying to make him badass fighter he never was.

3. Ribrianne and Arale's guest appearance were cool additions

4. Made many people realize GT wasn't as bad as they thought lol, as long as it counts

5. Slice of life moments were actually pretty good, especially Future Trunks visiting Gohan episode. Easily outshines other episodes of that arc, perhaps even best episode of DBS i'd say. Very hearthwarming and showing that bashing kid Trunks or GT Trunks for not being like him is dumb, as that episode clearly proved he wished he could have had such life and he only fights because he was forced to, not because he wanted. That episode should make people finally realize that present Gohan and Trunks will never be like their future counterparts and expecting it from them is just stupid and pointless.

6. Kefla was cool. Too bad we didn't see her in SDBH anime despite game opening showing her fight during entire Kamin&Oren invasion on U6

[super michael]

Here are the things DBS does right:

1st - the soundtrack when fighting and transforming.
2nd - I guess the humans fighting and training again.
3rd - Future Trunks return (too bad he didn't stay)
4th - Broly movie and more Saiyans that survived.
5th - Multiple Universe.
6th - Moro Arc
7th - Angel training and Godly ki.
8th - Goku Black and Zamasu were actually interesting villain, especially their team work.

I won't be mentioning anything negative about DBS in this thread, this thread is for positive only.

5. Slice of life moments were actually pretty good, especially Future Trunks visiting Gohan episode. Easily outshines other episodes of that arc, perhaps even best episode of DBS i'd say. Very hearthwarming and showing that bashing kid Trunks or GT Trunks for not being like him is dumb, as that episode clearly proved he wished he could have had such life and he only fights because he was forced to, not because he wanted. That episode should make people finally realize that present Gohan and Trunks will never be like their future counterparts and expecting it from them is just stupid and pointless.

Gohan since his first appearance has stated he doesn't like to fight and in the Cell Games the same. Gohan doesn't like killing his opponent.

However Present Trunks doesn't have this issue, he enjoys fighting and training even when there is peace time. It is only in EOZ that he quits training and fighting for unknown reason. Although the reason is now known it is their family that stops him.

[FortuneSSJ]

Despite all the flaws, it never stopped being entertaining and fans keep begging for more. That's DBS biggest win.

[LoganForkHands73]

Goku Black was a pretty cool guy, while the idea of "Gohan Black" is also quite appealing considering his rivalry with Future Trunks, it still works just as well that Trunks is being forced to fight a villain with the face of his personal idol, as well as a good friend.

As some argued in your other thread, I reckon Super under the current staff is much closer to the heart and tone of Dragon Ball than most 'backseat writer' types who crop up claiming that they can do better. Toyotaro of course began as a fan artist and many of his ideas from that period were typical fanficky cheese, but under Toriyama's guidance, he has improved drastically. That's not to dismiss fan works entirely, there have been some very talented doujinshi creators -- Young Jijii, Dragon Garow Lee, Malik Torihane etc. but the most acclaimed one, Salagir's Dragon Ball Multiverse, ended up being kinda trash because the writer's ego grew out of control. It was once hailed as the best example of a high quality fan work, and it genuinely was in the beginning, but now you'd struggle to see anyone defend it -- it has hardly any new ideas or characters (and the one who does make an impression, if you know you know, practically ruined the entire thing), the tone is completely wrong, the central tournament arc that began in 2008 is somehow still going to this day... Even though Super is far from perfect, I'd rather take Toyotaro's compact Tournament of Power over Salagir's bloated Multiverse Tournament any day of the week.

[SupremeKai25]

Off the top of my head, the thing DBS did best are the antagonists. All the original antagonists introduced by Super are morally grey and multi-layered. Z and OG villains might be beloved and nostalgic, but they were very simple characters. Meanwhile Super antagonists are more ambitious conceptually, and therefore also have more potential in the storylines and with the main cast.

This includes Jiren too. Lately I have seen some people claim that "Jiren is the worst antagonist in the franchise", and I disagree completely. He's actually a very interesting character who is meant to serve as foil for Goku, because he's what Goku would've ended up like if he lived in a world without Dragon Balls, without friends, etc. and he goes through major character development as he rediscovers the power of friendship and love.

Then of course there's Zamasu, on whom I could write an essay about how he actually did nothing wrong.

The only exception is Moro, he really is one-dimensional, but I'm sure Toei will be able to give him much-needed nuance. Just the VA alone would be enough, a good voice actor can really make a character feel more complex and emotional.

[sunsetshimmer]

However Present Trunks doesn't have this issue, he enjoys fighting and training even when there is peace time. It is only in EOZ that he quits training and fighting for unknown reason. Although the reason is now known it is their family that stops him.

He is still a kid though, a spoiled kid, who sees fighting as something fun to do and even then it's mostly because of Vegeta's influence. He doesn't really have soul of fighter like his father. Vegeta loves fighting, he seeks for opponents and opportunities to test his strength, to surpass Goku and be the strongest. EoZ clearly shows that Trunks has no big interest in fighting. His future self grew up without his father but he fights because he has to. Present Trunks is still more of a fighter than Gohan obviously, but he will never be like his future self as there is no reason for him to be like him. When F.Trunks saw Gohan in DBS he was shocked at first as he remembered how different his timeline Gohan was, but after a while he realized that present Gohan became what he is because he didn't have to become what Future Gohan was. And it's the same with Trunks. Future Trunks clearly wanted to have peaceful life where he doesn't need to fight.

Also, Gohan SSJ2 not only wanted to kill Cell, he wanted him to suffer. That was the worst Gohan ever. He was completely out of his character in that fight. I was talking about SSJ2 Gohan only, but it's the most beloved version of him and people are constantly whining "why can't Gohan be as cool as he was in Cell saga". His RoF version sucked, let's be honest, but other than that, i'd take DBS Gohan or GT Gohan over SSJ2 Gohan from Cell saga anyday.

[Magnificent Ponta]

For the manga, certainly, I think the theme-work is strong and consistent for the 3 main arcs we've had so far - Toyotarou has a talent for taking the themes of each arc and turning them over in ways that expose different facets and, when the work is at its strongest, also uses them to showcase character elements and drive plot beats in a very satisfying way.

[Dbzfan94]

1. Limit Break x Survivor
2. Some of the OST was great
3. Ultimate Battle
4. the first half of the Black arc
5. UI Omen and that beam slide in the ToP
6. the slice of life // family moments
7. Baby Pan (shes adorable lol)
8. the animation in DBS Broly
9. Seeing 17 was cool again. And the humans fighting again is nice
10. that one line from the dub where Goku forgot his tractor

Bonus: made me appreciate GT a lot more lol

thats about it for me

[sunsetshimmer]

For the manga, certainly, I think the theme-work is strong and consistent for the 3 main arcs we've had so far - Toyotarou has a talent for taking the themes of each arc and turning them over in ways that expose different facets and, when the work is at its strongest, also uses them to showcase character elements and drive plot beats in a very satisfying way.

Manga is godlike compared to crappy anime most of times.

ToP arc in anime was basically unwatchable to me, took me a year to watch it and that was only because we got polish dub for the first time ever (not counting two DBZ movies many years ago). Anime version was way too long and ubearable most of times. Kale in manga got rid of 4 universes very quickly leaving mostly only characters that matter in this arc instead of watching z-fighters fight forgettable weaklings for 80% of tournament. Reaching UI was also much better and actually made sense, rather than being blasted by own genki dama (that had no possibility to ever hurt Jiren as it was probably as strong as the one from Buu saga at best).

Zamasu arc was also much better, with no stupid wallpaper over sky finale, no SSJ Rage and no annoying half-jelly crybaby fused Zamasu was in anime. His manga version actually looked like a real psycho and was also more muscled, seeming stronger. Overall his character wasn't as plain and generic as in anime.

I wish games actually took characters from manga, not anime. That includes SDBH and its anime. It would be nice to see berserk Kale from manga instead of female Broly.

[Skar]

-I might be one of the few fans who was glad of the time period Toriyama chose. I always prefer a story be left alone when it ends so I'll take a midquel than a full-fledged sequel that changes the ending. I guess it gives some comfort that whatever happens it'll revert back to the status quo of the original ending.

-Battle of Gods (mainly the new characters Beerus and Whis).

-A few of the slice of life episodes such as Satan vs those space Lions and baseball episode.

-Champa tournament (a multiverse is more believable to introduce stronger existing antagonists, fun battles, and new characters aside from Frost).

-ToP (some of the new characters and a few of the better animated fights).

-DBS Broly (great animation and battles, a new far stronger Broly who is also sympathetic).

[sunsetshimmer]

-I might be one of the few fans who was glad of the time period Toriyama chose. I always prefer a story be left alone when it ends so I'll take a midquel than a full-fledged sequel that changes the ending. I guess it gives some comfort that whatever happens it'll revert back to the status quo of the original ending.

The problem is DBS lacks any tension for entire series because of that. You know everything will be ok in the end, nothing in DBS can surprise you or make you sad when any character in show dies. They can't take GT's route and just premamently kill characters like Buu or Piccolo without overwriting manga ending. When Piccolo died in RoF arc i didn't even care. It was obvious they will revive him right after that.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The problem is DBS lacks any tension for entire series because of that. You know everything will be ok in the end,

To say this again (we already did this whole exchange as recently as the complementing 'What's Wrong with Super' thread), you know (and probably always knew) that everything will be okay in the end for all of Dragon Ball generally, so this is a weak criticism; it's the nature of the beast when

a) Light-hearted serialised fiction presumes the heroes will win and everything will be okay, no matter how great the peril;
b) You have multiple sets of wish-granting objects that can undo all hurts and problems; and
c) Even when we see the people we care about die in Dragon Ball, they're generally just fine. Death doesn't have the same consequences in Dragon Ball as in the real world.

Moreover, the idea that enjoying or being gripped by a story depends specifically on whether you know people are going to die or not is a very narrow conception of what a story can do to provoke enjoyment and a sense of the uncertain, which can actually be done in numerous ways simply in how the story unfolds across its various beats.

[Matches Malone]

Beerus and Whis in BOG.
SsjG in BOG.
Vegeta getting important screen time throughout.
Goku Black.
The concept of Zamasu.
UI Omen.
Freeza in the TOP
Great fights (generally speaking).
The Multiverse concept.
Champa and Vados.
Roshi in the TOP.
Vegeta's potential as a teacher to Cabba.
Goku and Freeza's team up against Jiren.
RF having an improved ending compared to the movie
The opening and ending songs.

[sunsetshimmer]

To say this again (we already did this whole exchange as recently as the complementing 'What's Wrong with Super' thread), you know (and probably always knew) that everything will be okay in the end for all of Dragon Ball generally, so this is a weak criticism; it's the nature of the beast when

a) Light-hearted serialised fiction presumes the heroes will win and everything will be okay, no matter how great the peril;
b) You have multiple sets of wish-granting objects that can undo all hurts and problems; and
c) Even when we see the people we care about die in Dragon Ball, they're generally just fine. Death doesn't have the same consequences in Dragon Ball as in the real world.

Moreover, the idea that enjoying or being gripped by a story depends specifically on whether you know people are going to die or not is a very narrow conception of what a story can do to provoke enjoyment and a sense of the uncertain, which can actually be done in numerous ways simply in how the story unfolds across its various beats.

True, but not completely. GT killed Piccolo for good and basically erased Buu from existence after fusing with Uub. Those are things DBS would never be able to do. They could kill new character like Beerus or character with unknown status in EoZ like #17. Him blowing up was basically the only moment there was any tension, but in the end i think everyone knew they won't kill him anyway + he would be probably revived if they won tournament and wished for all universes to come back.

[Magnificent Ponta]

True, but not completely. GT killed Piccolo for good

And he was fine. Dead, but fine. What's the tension in that?

and basically erased Buu from existence after fusing with Uub.

Did that particularly up the tension, for you? He was basically just used as a fusion-y power-up; does that in and of itself enhance the story over any other kind of uncertain plot beat?

Those are things DBS would never be able to do.

Again, why should Dragon Ball Super want to do these things? There are more ways to create engagement in a story than to hang the threat of death over everyone; why is the threat of death specifically the default understanding of what creates enjoyable suspense in a story?

[Skar]

The problem is DBS lacks any tension for entire series because of that. You know everything will be ok in the end, nothing in DBS can surprise you or make you sad when any character in show dies. They can't take GT's route and just premamently kill characters like Buu or Piccolo without overwriting manga ending. When Piccolo died in RoF arc i didn't even care. It was obvious they will revive him right after that.

I agree about GT. I didn't mind no major changes to the status quo since it gives the sense that the series is over and these are extra adventures before the ending. If someone is reading DB for the first time in 20 years, it's unlikely they'll be told to stop at chapter 517 and read/watch DBS before continuing the final two chapters. The original series could still be treated as a complete product and everything else is extra optional viewing. I know it's not for everyone but I prefer that since like 99% of modern sequels or revivals haven't been very good and the changes they've made weren't worthwhile.

[sunsetshimmer]

Again, why should Dragon Ball Super want to do these things? There are more ways to create engagement in a story than to hang the threat of death over everyone; why is the threat of death specifically the default understanding of what creates enjoyable suspense in a story?

They do not have to want. Why even care about making Frieza destroying Earth dramatic? Even if you didn't see RoF movie, you know for sure that everyone will be brought back. It wasn't as obvious in all previous series. Of course shenron wishes were less and less restrictive over time, but there was some kind of tension when you knew that someone can't be wished back to life twice. It wasn't that obvious they will. Also when Goku died fighting Cell, they could bring him back, but he didn't want to. He came back for one day, but for a long time nothing really suggested he will be back for good. Toriyama didn't have to do it. Now imagine if #16 wasn't killed in Cell saga and we saw him in EoZ. He is a machine, he can't be revived. Now DBS shows us some villain, let's say Golden Frieza, killing him. You know he will be repaired somehow. That was my point.

Perhaps using "tension" to talk about GT deaths wasn't the most proper choice of words. What i meant is that they overall had more freedom. They felt like they want to make Buu fuse with Uub forever? They could do it. DBS has limited choices when it comes to changing things. There is a reason why it was Trunks's timeline that was invaded by Zamasu and why it was the only arc with ANY sense of danger. Because it was safe to destroy basically anything in that timeline as nothing in EoZ or even GT suggested it still exists.

[Magnificent Ponta]

They do not have to want. Why even care about making Frieza destroying Earth dramatic? Even if you didn't see RoF movie, you know for sure that everyone will be brought back. It wasn't as obvious in all previous series.

With respect, it was pretty obvious that the previous time Earth got blown up (Buu arc), it would be brought back in short order. Did it strictly have to be done because of a predetermined plot beat we'd already seen? I guess not. But was there ever any doubt that it would be done? No, of course not. That's the nature of Dragon Ball as a whole, not just Super - how 'perilous' can such a story really be?

Saying 'How are our heroes gonna get out of this one?' is a question that carries with it the assumption that our heroes will, in fact, 'get out of it', though we don't know how. And Super can (and does) play with this kind of suspense, too: Super operates within constraints, but they're hardly constraints that make a lot of difference to whether the unfolding of a story can be suspenseful, because by definition the audience doesn't know exactly what's going to happen. Who, for instance, might have guessed just how the Moro arc would unfold, even though we knew things would be fine?

There is a reason why it was Trunks's timeline that was invaded by Zamasu and why it was the only arc with ANY sense of danger. Because it was safe to destroy basically anything in that timeline as nothing in EoZ or even GT suggested it still exists.

I really didn't get an enhanced sense of suspense or enjoyment of the story for all that, and I didn't get a greater sense of satisfaction or payoff over the 'danger' when Zeno ended up erasing the whole of reality. Principally because we don't have any reason to care about those people, so why should their danger be more impactful than the danger of people who you care about, but know will be okay? Being free to kill people off just gives you a lot of dead people, apparently - what's the point of that, in and of itself?

Ultimately, the satisfaction of seeing just how the story will unfold is the only real suspense and enjoyment that a series like Dragon Ball touts in the first place, and Super doesn't come off any worse for that as far as I'm concerned, despite its constraints.

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

I have to say that I enjoyed the Goku Black arc and the Tournament of Power!