Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by TBMx » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:37 am

Kinokima wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 7:31 am

I also don’t see how there was anything childish about not wanting UI. He just came to the epiphany that it wouldn’t suit him and Whis agreed.
I didn't say there was anything childish about not wanting UI. I said it was childish that he didn't want it just because Goku got it. Before Goku transformed all this talk about it not suiting him and not wanting it, was no where to be found.

He had 4 years and he didnt say that once.

Only when Goku got it did he start saying it. Like literally within two minutes of it. So it wasn't just a random epiphany.

And Whis agreeing with him is out of character. Whis said from the start in RoF that it would be more difficult for Vegeta and it'll take a long time yet trained him anyway. Whis knew Vegeta's flaws. He was well aware when he decided to train him. Expressly for UI by how own words.

Yet now hes agreeing with Vegeta's childish fit in spite of that. That's inconsistent.

Fans are rewriting the backstory to fit the current narrative. Now Vegeta only did "low effort" with his Angel training and "Never really believed in it". And now Whis always thought "UI doesnt suit him so he shouldn't learn it".

We're just going to collectively pretend Vegeta didn''t want UI literally up till the second Goku got it and isn't just trying to save face with a sudden "I never wanted it anyway LUL"

Okay pal, the past 4 years says something different. Never mind that Vegeta started Angel training first and that it was his idea. Nah...him fulfilling the training he started, would just be "following Goku".

Yeah right.

But fans just accept it. :lolno:

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:45 am

TBMx wrote:
Mon Jan 18, 2021 1:05 am
I don't think the writers know what to do with him. They try out ideas but don't have the confidence to follow through.
They want to have their cake and eat it too. This isn't just with Vegeta, they'll introduce these ideas and tease potential plots only for absolutely nothing to come of them. Super isn't over so some could be picked up later like the visit to Sadal, but others like Gohan finding a power beyond Goku's as an earth fighter is probably a dead end.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:00 am

Going down exactly the same paths as Goku has only ever landed Vegeta in second place. Deciding the specific route of Ultra Instinct doesn't work for him and pursuing other methods more suited to his strengths is probably both the healthiest expression of pride in context of their rivalry Vegeta has ever displayed and the more interesting route for continuing to feature him as a prominent character.

In context of the opening post's metaphor, it's more like always having had a craft trade you enjoyed and were skilled at, but constantly trying to keep up with a rival academically so you could be more successful than them. Vegeta missed out on acceptances to the grad program, but realized he's good at woodworking and can find success that way instead.
TBMx wrote:Only when Goku got it did he start saying it. Like literally within two minutes of it. So it wasn't just a random epiphany.

And Whis agreeing with him is out of character. Whis said from the start in RoF that it would be more difficult for Vegeta and it'll take a long time yet trained him anyway. Whis knew Vegeta's flaws. He was well aware when he decided to train him. Expressly for UI by how own words.
Whis trained Vegeta in the methods Whis knows and uses, just like any master would.

Vegeta sees Goku get UI and realizes he's just on the path of playing catch-up again, which will never get him where he wants. He might feel differently if he were able to achieve it first, but that would be an entirely different situation. His life story is doing the same thing Goku did, later, and he realizes he's been doing the same thing with UI; he has nothing to lose by going all in on paths he feels cater more to his strengths.

Maybe he'll realize they won't get him where he wants either, but at least then he'll be losing on his own terms, you know?

UI can be out-stronged like anything else in Dragon Ball; Vegeta's just going to try to out-strong it and keep plugging away at those Super Saiyan forms. Or that's how it appears at this point, anyway.
Yet only when Goku gets it first, Vegeta decides to abandon it. Vegeta, the 50 year old man decides to abandon those years of work because of that. Even though he was told years ago, that Goku would take to it easier. :crazy:
You answered your own question here. Vegeta's goal is to be #1. He's competitive. If he's just forcing himself into something Goku is going to take easier to, he's consigning himself to being #2 from the start. Seeing Goku tap into UI while he struggles against Toppo (himself second best and who has just dug into him with a second-best comment) drives that realization home. That's a pretty natural time for him to say, "Wait, actually, what am I doing?"
Vegeta didn't develop SSBE. He just powered up in frustration and got it. Goku powered up in frustration for the exact same reason, frustration at lack of strength against Jiren, but he didn't get SSBE. As they're the same species, that doesn't make sense either.
That's one way to look at it. Another would be looking at those developments as indicating that breakthroughs in Saiyan genetic strength have become Vegeta's forte over Goku's so that their paths can credibly diverge.

Does it hold the most weight with all arcs that have come prior? Maybe not. But Vegeta's also constantly developing and re-assessing his growth, and Saiyan genetic transformations have essentially no rules from the start, so if that's the series' way at executing split development so that Vegeta can credibly take a different path, I'm on board. And as pointed out above, his wanting to do so feels perfectly well characterized (and perfectly reasonable, in terms of what the results of constantly going down the same path as Goku have been).

This is the kind of thing that's really only as much of a character issue as you want it to be.
Matches Malone wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:45 am
but others like Gohan finding a power beyond Goku's as an earth fighter is probably a dead end.
Maybe because that's a line written into what is essentially a filler episode in the midst of Super's rushed and ill-coordinated TV production? The episode-to-episode character moments of the TV series hardly ever feel sincere because the right hand can't guarantee what the left one will do, and everyone's trying to insert their bit of episodic character drama regardless of the overall Toriyama-outlined plot. Take its dialogue-level statements to heart at your peril, was always the writing on its tin. :silent:

Gohan's similar line in the manga makes no reference to catching up to or surpassing Goku. He's just committing to his own personal development without relying on specific genetic gifts. But dialogue surrounding his growth at the tournament also indicates that he probably could surpass Goku--if he devoted all his time to training in the same way.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by TBMx » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:45 am

Cipher wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:00 am
Going down exactly the same paths as Goku has only ever landed Vegeta in second place.
Goku joined Vegeta's path. Training with Whis was Vegeta's idea. So because Goku got UI first, its his path now? And Vegeta just has to leave? That's sad.

"I joined you on your path and because I did better its my path now and you need to leave."

:crazy: :roll:

Vegeta started to really lag behind Goku when he refused to use his Full Power Super Saiyan method in the Cell saga.

And he chose to go to Yardrat, something Goku did all the way back in the Frieza saga. But yes he diverted from what Goku was doing in this arc. But training some place Goku went when I was fourteen was never going to get him to first place when Goku's training all out with a literal Angel in the ROSAT.

The own way thing doesnt work because Vegeta's choosing methods that obviously have no chance against Goku. Goku could finger flick him dead now because SSBE is a bum form and Vegeta's spirit control broke down back into his normal rage.

:lolno:
Deciding the specific route of Ultra Instinct doesn't work for him and pursuing other methods more suited to his strengths is probably both the healthiest expression of pride in context of their rivalry Vegeta has ever displayed and the more interesting route for continuing to feature him as a prominent character.
Vegeta said "I gave up all hope of that actually", implying right before Goku got it, he had hope. And he was told itd be tougher for him. So why'd he suddenly change his mind after 4 years of hoping hyst cos Goku got there first? When he was basically told in RoF thats very likely?

That realisation should have been made way earlier. When he was told hed have a harder time, if he felt that way, he'd do something else. Instead of losing those years. Thats why he'd behind. He's behind because Goku's quest for strength isn't conditional on anything.

Vegeta wants to get stronger his own way, without a mentor, and with just pure power preferably. No tricks. With these constraints, Goku must be stronger. Its common sense.

Vegeta sees Goku get UI and realizes he's just on the path of playing catch-up again, which will never get him where he wants. He might feel differently if he were able to achieve it first, but that would be an entirely different situation. His life story is doing the same thing Goku did, later, and he realizes he's been doing the same thing with UI; he has nothing to lose by going all in on paths he feels cater more to his strengths.
Again, FOUR YEARS? Four years to of being on that path to realize he shouldn't? So all those sessions with Whis to teach him UI is just wasted? For what? Just a vague hope that something better comes along.
(and perfectly reasonable, in terms of what the results of constantly going down the same path as Goku have been).
Again, it's not Goku's path. Its Vegeta's path that Goku joined later. This is part of the fan rewrites that people just throw out there. Its important not to change history.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:28 am

I understand that for some it can be difficult to dig into the idea that Vegeta is trying to follow a different path since for now we barely have a hint of what that path is, in addition to the fact that this mentality during the GPP arc didn’t exactly lead Vegeta to overcome the UI (it can be argued that he surpassed the Omen form, which for someone who has SSBE, a form that is largely inferior in terms of the provided boost, is a pretty good feat).

And while I'm skeptical about Toriyama and Toyotaro's willingness to develop this path (although Toyo doesn't usually throw these ideas without some purpose, I don't think he would ignore such a plot beat from a character as relevant as Vegeta especially if he intends to keep him at the level of new threats), I think it's a worthwhile attempt to try to change things up a bit. I mean, I don't see how things would be any different than it always has been if Vegeta just kept following in Goku's footsteps, only to see him gain even greater power shortly afterwards.

UI is cool and all, but from what we saw in this arc there will already be an even greater power than this and just like any other power up in the series, it can be overcome with raw power. And as long as the idea for Vegeta's new path gives him powers distinct enough from Goku to make him more unique and interesting, I'm fine. Considering that due to Moro's hax, Vegeta's new path had to go in the direction of a new technique instead of a power boost (although he got stronger), if the new villain is just traditionally strong like the others, I believe Vegeta will develop something more related to strength and maybe be more visually impressive compared to Spirit Fission or Spirit control this time.

However, I don't like how they purposely prevented Vegeta from learning IT, making it a one time thing (as if he had pulled this technique out by luck). I understand that it is a signature technique of Goku, but the Instant Transmission, like the whole trip to Yardrat and the training with Pybara, was not done because Vegeta wanted to follow Goku's steps but because of a need. There was nothing preventing Vegeta from learning this technique definitively
TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:45 am

The own way thing doesnt work because Vegeta's choosing methods that obviously have no chance against Goku. Goku could finger flick him dead now because SSBE is a bum form and Vegeta's spirit control broke down back into his normal rage.
I don't understand, how the training related to Spirit Control has to do with Vegeta getting angry in the fight against Moro? I mean, how exactly does one conflict with the other?
TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:45 am
Vegeta wants to get stronger his own way, without a mentor, and with just pure power preferably. No tricks. With these constraints, Goku must be stronger. Its common sense.
Where is it said that Vegeta does not want masters? He trained with Pybara in the last arc and is on the planet of Beerus with Whis in the most recent chapter

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:51 am

Yeah there seems to be a misunderstanding that learning spirit control means you can never get angry or frustrated again which was absolutely never said in the content of the chapter.

Also Vegeta learned Spirit Control to find a way to beat Moro not to surpass Goku. Now of course he would want to apply anything he learned to surpassing Goku. And I personally believe Pybara mentioned how quickly Goku learned Spirit Control to motivate Vegeta (nothing motivates Vegeta more than mentioning Goku) but the implication of Vegeta going on Yadrat to learn Spirit Control was to find something to defeat Moro not get stronger than Goku. In fact before Vegeta left for Yadrat he even said he doesn’t like to rely on those type of methods but he put that aside because of the situation that they were in.

I would argue that Vegeta’s thought process wasn’t wrong it’s just in this case Moro became more powerful so they did need raw power to beat him (which is something I found a bit disappointing) but Vegeta’s Spirit Control still played an important role in the end.


As for the teacher line I think TBMx is referring to when Vegeta shouted he never had Martial Arts teachers during the Manga TOP. I admit I found that line pretty stupid considering he did have a teacher in Whis. And as you said later on he learns from Pybara etc. But while that moment was worded poorly I think Vegeta just meant that his path to becoming a Warrior was one he forged through battle not martial arts. I don’t think he is against learning new things from others but one could also argue that Vegeta did come far on his own as well. I still think the scene itself was kind of dumb. Not as bad a Vegeta not giving energy to Goku in the anime TOP but one of the dumber Vegeta scenes in the manga.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:59 am

So it seems that Vegeta might follow the form of GoD Toppo from ToP?
Last edited by Gogeta SSJ Blue on Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Cipher » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:32 pm

TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:45 am
Goku joined Vegeta's path. Training with Whis was Vegeta's idea. So because Goku got UI first, its his path now? And Vegeta just has to leave? That's sad.

"I joined you on your path and because I did better its my path now and you need to leave."

:crazy: :roll:
Who says he joined first in the manga?

And why would that matter anyway? He got what he wanted out of training with Whis, which was into the godly realms of power and up to Goku's level. The training is still useful even if he realizes he doesn't want to keep pushing himself down the path to UI and trailing Goku, who's better adapted to it.
And he chose to go to Yardrat, something Goku did all the way back in the Frieza saga. But yes he diverted from what Goku was doing in this arc. But training some place Goku went when I was fourteen was never going to get him to first place when Goku's training all out with a literal Angel in the ROSAT.
Vegeta goes to Yardrat because of a need--to beat Moro. He even espouses on how much he dislikes the idea of having to rely on strange techniques to do so. But part of his character arc that story line is growing into a role as a genuine hero and atoning for his past, so he'll do whatever it takes. Making the trip to Yardrat and learning specialized techniques aren't part of his normal training--although he does benefit from a strength boost by having done so (and apparently catches up to and/or surpasses UI Sign).
The own way thing doesnt work because Vegeta's choosing methods that obviously have no chance against Goku. Goku could finger flick him dead now because SSBE is a bum form and Vegeta's spirit control broke down back into his normal rage.
"Spirit" is just what the Yardratians call ki. He gets better at using it while he's there.

The climax of the Moro specifically implies that Vegeta is able to outdo UI Sign Goku while using SSBE, so apparently he's not on a super wrong path. Obviously he's behind full UI, but he seems to believe (and is probably correct) that he'd be behind Goku even had he continued to pursue it himself. At least this way he's progressing on his own terms.

He'd probably never outdo Goku just playing catch-up with UI. This way he at least has a chance, and if not, he's failing on his own terms.
Vegeta said "I gave up all hope of that actually", implying right before Goku got it, he had hope. And he was told itd be tougher for him. So why'd he suddenly change his mind after 4 years of hoping hyst cos Goku got there first? When he was basically told in RoF thats very likely?

That realisation should have been made way earlier.
Okay, but it wasn't, so ...?

The cards aligned to push him into that realization then. In their previous years of training they were also both pre-occupied with mastering Blue. They spend the better part of two arcs developing Blue to make more it useful--taking turns in doing so--but by the end of them and when the form seems perfected, he's still trailing in second place. UI had only come back into the fore as the immediate goal that very arc. It's a ripe time for him to be re-evaluating his training and re-evaluating UI in particular, with the events in the ring of the ToP being the final trigger for making the decision he does.
Again, FOUR YEARS? Four years to of being on that path to realize he shouldn't? So all those sessions with Whis to teach him UI is just wasted? For what? Just a vague hope that something better comes along.
Idk. It's also weird to imply that if you realize you're on the wrong path after four years you should just keep pouring time into doing the wrong thing for you.

Again, Vegeta gets plenty out of the training in those four years, and after having mastered Blue, is struck with the realization that going any further down the same path as Goku is just going to keep him in second place.
Again, it's not Goku's path. Its Vegeta's path that Goku joined later. This is part of the fan rewrites that people just throw out there. Its important not to change history.
1) Maybe, as far as the manga is concerned. It never tells us that.

2) Why would it matter either way?

People have life experiences where they start down one path, get useful growth out of it, then ultimately realize it's not going to get them where they want. It doesn't really matter if they started doing it before someone who takes to it better? Like, that's just an actual life experience that people have?

As a reader, I feel it's both justified and more interesting to have him pursuing his own kind of growth rather than just getting what Goku does later.
Last edited by Cipher on Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:51 pm

As a quick note, on the subject of whether learning from Whis is really Vegeta or Goku's path: as far as Toriyama is concerned, it's Goku who asked for Whis's training, and Vegeta is the one who tagged along:
Akira Toriyama’s Inside Story: Tell us the details on how they started training with Whis!
Goku was the one who asked Whis, of course. It was on condition that he give Whis tasty food! Vegeta didn’t want Goku to leave him in the dust, so he had no choice but to come train too.
I don't think the manga has said anything to contradict this.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kagari » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:02 pm

Cipher wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:00 am

Maybe because that's a line written into what is essentially a filler episode in the midst of Super's rushed and ill-coordinated TV production? The episode-to-episode character moments of the TV series hardly ever feel sincere because the right hand can't guarantee what the left one will do, and everyone's trying to insert their bit of episodic character drama regardless of the overall Toriyama-outlined plot. Take its dialogue-level statements to heart at your peril, was always the writing on its tin. :silent:

Gohan's similar line in the manga makes no reference to catching up to or surpassing Goku. He's just committing to his own personal development without relying on specific genetic gifts. But dialogue surrounding his growth at the tournament also indicates that he probably could surpass Goku--if he devoted all his time to training in the same way.
Episode 90 isn't a filler episode. And the anime just worded the same development the manga used just somewhat differently: Gohan is taking his Ultimate form further and not chasing the Super Saiyan paths his dad did, that's it. There's no hidden meaning. But importantly that episode has a lot of good character writing for both Goku and Gohan and that (their relationship) is something that was most definitely sincere.

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 19, 2021 2:32 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:51 pm
As a quick note, on the subject of whether learning from Whis is really Vegeta or Goku's path: as far as Toriyama is concerned, it's Goku who asked for Whis's training, and Vegeta is the one who tagged along:
Akira Toriyama’s Inside Story: Tell us the details on how they started training with Whis!
Goku was the one who asked Whis, of course. It was on condition that he give Whis tasty food! Vegeta didn’t want Goku to leave him in the dust, so he had no choice but to come train too.
I don't think the manga has said anything to contradict this.
This is one of the problems with having different versions of the same story that contradict each other

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by The Undying » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:22 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:51 pm
I don't think the manga has said anything to contradict this.
It hasn't. More crucially, the manga is far and away more cohesive with Vegeta's broader character arc throughout Super.

In the Future Trunks arc, both Goku and Vegeta strive to maximize Super Saiyan Blue's power output in different ways, but Goku's method ultimately comes out on top. In the Universe Survival arc, Vegeta ditches Goku's path by deciding to get stronger on his own terms without mentors. In the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc, he learns that training under others can be a necessary compromise. Here in the current arc, he's presumably about to train under a master again - Beerus, specifically - while still keeping to his own path.

Each individual development iterates on the previous development, and what seems to be Vegeta's endgame for now is finding a balance between growing independently from Goku and accepting the tutelage of others. That's a pretty stark 180 from the anime's more episodic approach with most of its cast, which doesn't really work: Dragon Ball isn't a self-contained episodic series, and Vegeta's "development" in the TV show only emphasizes things he was already committed to.
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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:15 pm

The Undying wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:22 pm
Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:51 pm
I don't think the manga has said anything to contradict this.
It hasn't. More crucially, the manga is far and away more cohesive with Vegeta's broader character arc throughout Super.

In the Future Trunks arc, both Goku and Vegeta strive to maximize Super Saiyan Blue's power output in different ways, but Goku's method ultimately comes out on top. In the Universe Survival arc, Vegeta ditches Goku's path by deciding to get stronger on his own terms without mentors. In the Galactic Patrol Prisoner arc, he learns that training under others can be a necessary compromise. Here in the current arc, he's presumably about to train under a master again - Beerus, specifically - while still keeping to his own path.

Each individual development iterates on the previous development, and what seems to be Vegeta's endgame for now is finding a balance between growing independently from Goku and accepting the tutelage of others. That's a pretty stark 180 from the anime's more episodic approach with most of its cast, which doesn't really work: Dragon Ball isn't a self-contained episodic series, and Vegeta's "development" in the TV show only emphasizes things he was already committed to.
It also didn’t help that there were multiple different writers for the anime and half the time it felt like they didn’t know what another writer had wrote a few episodes before

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Re: Vegeta’s ridiculous situation..

Post by precita » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:44 pm

Vegeta doesn't need to surpass Goku or learn UI.

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