Vegeta new form?

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Gogeta SSJ Blue
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Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:39 pm

So, accordingly to some spoilers from the new manga chapter, it seems that
What is your opinion about it?

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Ziegander » Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:58 pm

It will likely result in a new form, I hope it doesn't, but regardless I'm intrigued by it. Toyo seems a bit more technical in his approach and explanations of new techniques and sources of power within the Dragon Ball mythos than Toriyama tended to be, so I think whatever additional godly techniques Beerus has up his sleeves they're going to be interesting.

So, Angels are experts with Ultra Instinct, which, I mean, at this point you'd think has to still be superior to whatever techniques Beerus is talking about, right? It's implied that Beerus is an expert in some other godly technique, but Beerus has never held a candle to Whis in a straight up fight, he can't even compete, so whatever he's got to offer Vegeta, don't expect it to boost him anywhere near MUI Goku's level and if it does we're in complete retcon territory.

I don't think he's talking about anything we've seen so far, though, so I think Hakai is out. I'm interested to see what he's talking about, especially as he also implies that the technique could potentially be "stolen" by Vegeta, unless that's just a translation mistake. :think:
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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:02 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:58 pm
It will likely result in a new form, I hope it doesn't, but regardless I'm intrigued by it. Toyo seems a bit more technical in his approach and explanations of new techniques and sources of power within the Dragon Ball mythos than Toriyama tended to be, so I think whatever additional godly techniques Beerus has up his sleeves they're going to be interesting.

So, Angels are experts with Ultra Instinct, which, I mean, at this point you'd think has to still be superior to whatever techniques Beerus is talking about, right? It's implied that Beerus is an expert in some other godly technique, but Beerus has never held a candle to Whis in a straight up fight, he can't even compete, so whatever he's got to offer Vegeta, don't expect it to boost him anywhere near MUI Goku's level and if it does we're in complete retcon territory.

I don't think he's talking about anything we've seen so far, though, so I think Hakai is out. I'm interested to see what he's talking about, especially as he also implies that the technique could potentially be "stolen" by Vegeta, unless that's just a translation mistake. :think:
Thanks for that amazing opinion!

Now, for the stealing part, that really got me more interested about it.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Yuji » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:35 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:58 pm
I don't think he's talking about anything we've seen so far, though, so I think Hakai is out. I'm interested to see what he's talking about, especially as he also implies that the technique could potentially be "stolen" by Vegeta, unless that's just a translation mistake. :think:
The implication is that Beerus is going to train by himself, presumably demonstrate the technique a couple of times while "solo" training, and Vegeta will have to "steal" it by mimicking from eyesight.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:43 pm

This is essentially a random afterthought consolation handwave for the UI rejects. A quick way of powering up Vegeta so he can do his usual hype then job role.

Goku's UI is the culmination of his entire life's teachings. Vegeta's whatever will be a hastily thrown together thing that will be mostly taught offscreen while the focus is on Goku. :lol:

In writing, if something is cheap and rushed during the set up, its cheap during the pay off.

Its not something Goku would be interested in for a second, as he'd consider it beneath him. Rightly so.
Last edited by TBMx on Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Yuji » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:46 pm

TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:43 pm
This is essentially a random afterthought consolation handwave for the UI rejects. A quick way of powering up Vegeta so he can do his usual hype then job role.

Goku's UI is the culmination of his entire life's teachings. Vegeta's whatever will be a hastily thrown together thing that will be mostly taught offscreen while the focus is on Goku. :lol:

In writing, if something is cheap and rushed during the set up, its cheap during the pay off.

Its not something Goku would be interested in for a second, as he'd consider it beneath him. Rightly so.
What are Vegeta's entire life teachings?

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:48 pm

Most likely a SSJ Purple/Energy of Destruction form... Hakai Energy!
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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:52 pm

Yuji wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:46 pm
TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:43 pm
This is essentially a random afterthought consolation handwave for the UI rejects. A quick way of powering up Vegeta so he can do his usual hype then job role.

Goku's UI is the culmination of his entire life's teachings. Vegeta's whatever will be a hastily thrown together thing that will be mostly taught offscreen while the focus is on Goku. :lol:

In writing, if something is cheap and rushed during the set up, its cheap during the pay off.

Its not something Goku would be interested in for a second, as he'd consider it beneath him. Rightly so.
What are Vegeta's entire life teachings?
Brute strength, ki blast spam and angrily flailing at the opponent. If a new form captures that I guess we're golden. :lolno: :lol:

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by batistabus » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:58 pm

Yuji wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:35 pm
Ziegander wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:58 pm
I don't think he's talking about anything we've seen so far, though, so I think Hakai is out. I'm interested to see what he's talking about, especially as he also implies that the technique could potentially be "stolen" by Vegeta, unless that's just a translation mistake. :think:
The implication is that Beerus is going to train by himself, presumably demonstrate the technique a couple of times while "solo" training, and Vegeta will have to "steal" it by mimicking from eyesight.
The translation we've seen says "selfishly steal it". That group's translations are often lacking, so I'll try not to read into it too much for now, but the "selfish" may be "migatte" like Migatte no Gokui. If that is the case, I wonder if that's a hint or an intentional comparison drawn with MnG.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Kinokima » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:28 pm

TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:43 pm
This is essentially a random afterthought consolation handwave for the UI rejects. A quick way of powering up Vegeta so he can do his usual hype then job role.

Goku's UI is the culmination of his entire life's teachings. Vegeta's whatever will be a hastily thrown together thing that will be mostly taught offscreen while the focus is on Goku. :lol:

In writing, if something is cheap and rushed during the set up, its cheap during the pay off.

Its not something Goku would be interested in for a second, as he'd consider it beneath him. Rightly so.
Regardless of Vegeta getting UI he would still probably ultimately not beat the main villain so that’s neither here nor there

Vegeta IS improving regardless of the fact if he beats a main villain or not. He is a character in a story not a real person so unfortunately he is going to be affected by the direction of the plot.

So this new move shouldn’t only be about surpassing Goku or beating a main villain (even if that happens to be Vegeta’s goal) it should grow him as a character and that is the most important part

And honestly maybe the writing team did at first intend for Goku and Vegeta to both get UI. But maybe as they developed the story they decided to push Vegeta in a different direction so he isn’t always doing the same things as Goku but after him.

As the main character Goku probably would always get a form first and he would probably ultimately be more powerful in that form too. In this way Vegeta gets something too that’s his own. It may not be as powerful as whatever Goku gets. But so what? Vegeta’s not the main character. He’s still getting more than most characters in the cast. In other Shounen when the secondary character gets a new power/ability I don’t see fans go but why isn’t it as good as what the main character gets.

And sure as a Vegeta fan I hope whatever they give him delivers but I don’t think this is ultimately a bad direction for his character’s growth.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:34 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:58 pm

So, Angels are experts with Ultra Instinct, which, I mean, at this point you'd think has to still be superior to whatever techniques Beerus is talking about, right? It's implied that Beerus is an expert in some other godly technique, but Beerus has never held a candle to Whis in a straight up fight, he can't even compete, so whatever he's got to offer Vegeta, don't expect it to boost him anywhere near MUI Goku's level and if it does we're in complete retcon territory.
I do not agree with this. Goku has UI but he is not even close to Whis, both in terms of the power and mastery of the Ultra Instinct. In this case it's not about the power of the technique, Angels are just on a totally different level.

Also, according to Beerus, this is a technique of the Gods just like the UI, it just so happens that Angels in particular are experts in using Ultra Instinct because it best fits with them (a "gentle to the heart" technique) while GoDs use something more suited to their style. Essentially, the level of the technique will depend on the user, but Beerus seems to imply that the ones used by GoDs can rival the UI

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:54 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:28 pm
TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:43 pm
This is essentially a random afterthought consolation handwave for the UI rejects. A quick way of powering up Vegeta so he can do his usual hype then job role.

Goku's UI is the culmination of his entire life's teachings. Vegeta's whatever will be a hastily thrown together thing that will be mostly taught offscreen while the focus is on Goku. :lol:

In writing, if something is cheap and rushed during the set up, its cheap during the pay off.

Its not something Goku would be interested in for a second, as he'd consider it beneath him. Rightly so.
Regardless of Vegeta getting UI he would still probably ultimately not beat the main villain so that’s neither here nor there

Vegeta IS improving regardless of the fact if he beats a main villain or not. He is a character in a story not a real person so unfortunately he is going to be affected by the direction of the plot.

So this new move shouldn’t only be about surpassing Goku or beating a main villain (even if that happens to be Vegeta’s goal) it should grow him as a character and that is the most important part

And honestly maybe the writing team did at first intend for Goku and Vegeta to both get UI. But maybe as they developed the story they decided to push Vegeta in a different direction so he isn’t always doing the same things as Goku but after him.

As the main character Goku probably would always get a form first and he would probably ultimately be more powerful in that form too. In this way Vegeta gets something too that’s his own. It may not be as powerful as whatever Goku gets. But so what? Vegeta’s not the main character. He’s still getting more than most characters in the cast. In other Shounen when the secondary character gets a new power/ability I don’t see fans go but why isn’t it as good as what the main character gets.

And sure as a Vegeta fan I hope whatever they give him delivers but I don’t think this is ultimately a bad direction for his character’s growth.
Seto Kaiba, Sasuke, Kai Hiwatari, Akira Toya have all defeated a main villain and/ or defeated the main character clean. Hell Kai's done both. Vegeta's very low in terms of respect to main rival character in Shonen. Every one of those four and many more characters besides are given more than Vegeta is. Hell Kaiba has his own movie essentially. The idea of Vegeta starring in how own movie is inconceivable.

If Vegeta's goal as a character is to be the strongest and he's obviously not taking steps to reach that goal, then he's a bad character. Dragonball Super isn't Shakesphere. Only power matters in DBS.

Vegeta training with an inferior mentor for much, much less time than Goku trained in UI, is obviously not going to get him remotely to Goku's level. So when a character takes steps that are directly contradictory to their goals, what is that if not bad characterization?

Vegeta said UI doesn't suit him , but he seems no closer to getting it than when he started. So what was he doing for the past 4 years? Sleeping? What was the calming meditation of Spirit Control for? Nothing? Didn't lead anywhere did it. Just teasing fans that maybe they're priming his mind for UI. Nope. Garbage.

Vegeta's a bum. Its hilarious watching him flail about desperately trying to find something while Goku has one clear path that at its highest leads all the way to the Grand Priest tier. At its highest Beerus's tech leads to....the strongest god of destruction. :lolno:

If Beerus 's tech is so good than how come any established angel can finger flick him dead?

:clap: Good choice Geetz, ya bum.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:02 pm

I don't actually think it would surpass Goku UI, but at least, be more closer to the existent power gap between them.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:07 pm

TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:54 pm
Seto Kaiba, Sasuke, Kai Hiwatari, Akira Toya have all defeated a main villain and/ or defeated the main character clean. Hell Kai's done both. Vegeta's very low in terms of respect to main rival character in Shonen. Every one of those four and many more characters besides are given more than Vegeta is. Hell Kaiba has his own movie essentially. The idea of Vegeta starring in how own movie is inconceivable.
The list of deuteragonists that have accomplished something just goes on and on if we compare them to Vegeta's role. Which can be pretty much summed up as a "tease-for-nothing" all the time.

The idea of Vegeta getting his own movie has been officially spoken aloud. But it seems even from an out-universe perspective, Vegeta is forever doomed to be a "tease-for-nothing" character. If it's this frustrating even for someone who isn't a fan of him (like myself), imagine how his fans are. Having to content themselves with a constant tease, only for it to lead nowhere.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:29 pm

This topic is kinda overlapping with the other one, but I'd say that whatever Vegeta ends up with, it is probably likelier to end up complementing what Goku achieves rather than really challenging it, even though that's Vegeta's intention. And I'm interested to see in what way that might be the case.

One of the more persistent narrative moves Dragon Ball Super has tried to push - appearing very clearly in the resolution to the last two arcs - is that Goku and Vegeta need each other to achieve victory, come to grief and end up with bigger problems when they try to resolve things alone, and ought to learn to work together as a result (even if it only happens despite their natural inclination). That's 'the kind of story' being told, as I see it.

I don't think expecting a 'win' for Vegeta at Goku's expense is particularly realistic, given that consideration. Should we even want it?

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:29 pm

This time they overplayed their hand when it comes to the teasing.

Vegeta rivalling Goku from an inferior mentor with 1/20th of the training is obviously not happening. :lol:

Its like with the Yardrat training. I was telling the people who were all hyped up, "Do you really expect him to rival Goku from doing stuff Goku did in like 1990? Come on now.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:57 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:29 pm
This topic is kinda overlapping with the other one, but I'd say that whatever Vegeta ends up with, it is probably likelier to end up complementing what Goku achieves rather than really challenging it, even though that's Vegeta's intention. And I'm interested to see in what way that might be the case.

One of the more persistent narrative moves Dragon Ball Super has tried to push - appearing very clearly in the resolution to the last two arcs - is that Goku and Vegeta need each other to achieve victory, come to grief and end up with bigger problems when they try to resolve things alone, and ought to learn to work together as a result (even if it only happens despite their natural inclination). That's 'the kind of story' being told, as I see it.

I don't think expecting a 'win' for Vegeta at Goku's expense is particularly realistic, given that consideration. Should we even want it?
Not quite!

This one is exclusively for discussing his new form whatever it may or not be after all.

The other thread is more about his current situation.

Well said the opinion you gave about Vegeta complementing Goku.

That is exactly the way I like to think too!

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:01 pm

This entire motivation for Vegeta literally only works if angels and GoD's are comparable. It doesn't work if gods of destr are fodder to angels. Why would Vegeta model himself off fodder to angels when Goku's modelling himself off angels when the goals to surpass Goku? Makes no sense.

When Vegeta learned that Angel powers are quite ineffective against demons, that's where he should have gone. Awhile ago.

:roll:

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:21 pm

TBMx wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:01 pm
This entire motivation for Vegeta literally only works if angels and GoD's are comparable. It doesn't work if gods of destr are fodder to angels. Why would Vegeta model himself off fodder to angels when Goku's modelling himself off angels when the goals to surpass Goku? Makes no sense.

When Vegeta learned that Angel powers are quite ineffective against demons, that's where he should have gone. Awhile ago.

:roll:
Maybe he will then change his mind and go train with Whis to simply attain UI too?

It might be possibly what will happen in the end?

He should be capable of seeing for himself that his own decisions were not always the best ones after all... :shock:

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:43 pm

If it's the technique Beerus uses, I imagine the form will look similar to Hakaishin Toppo. Whatever it is, I just hope they let Vegeta be the hero of story arc for once.

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