Vegeta new form?

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Kinokima » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 am

TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:12 am
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:06 am
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:56 am


UI was portrayed as the culimination of the lifetime of Goku's teachings, from Roshi's to Whis'. So it was always going to feel valuable and prestigious even if the transformation itself was quick. Vegeta doesn't have that.

Again it was ONE scene. Sure it was a very nice moment and certainly better than what the anime did but there was no true journey or struggle to specifically get UI. They just built on previous history Goku had. I am not saying it was a bad moment but you are overemphasizing it to downgrade Vegeta.

Vegeta’s journey as a character has never been about him as martial artists anyways. His journey has been about how he has changed as a character and there were plenty instances of that in the last arc.
The same last arc where he denied he changed at all and said he was destined for hell cos villain?

Vegeta achieving a rival form to MUI this arc devalues MUI too, when its already been devalued by Whis from being "Unbeatable" (says Merus) to "Just the beginning".

For Vegeta to achieve a form with prestige as well as protect that of UI, he needs to put the years in and almost kill himself to achieve this shit. Anything less is a handwave.
Because you completely missed the point of that scene. Vegeta may see himself as bound for hell because he thinks that is what he deserves (whether that is true or not is besides the point). He doesn’t think all the good he can do is enough but he still wants to help others. So yes that entire chapter showed Vegeta changed. If Piccolo beating it over your head in the chapter wasn’t enough which I guess it wasn’t for some.

Do I think Vegeta will get a move to beat a main villain? No. Do I think Vegeta will catch up to Goku eventually? Possibly. Do I think he will surpass Goku when it matters? No .

But that shouldn’t matter. Vegeta can learn something that is worthwhile even if it is not better than what Goku has. Vegeta may not reach his goal to surpass Goku (if he did he would have no goal) but he always gets stronger in the process. He’s not Mastered UI level but after the last arc he is about Omen level. That’s a significant improvement from where he was before and above most other characters in the series.


And of course MUI wasn’t going to be unbeatable. The series is still ongoing. Anyone thinking otherwise was being dense.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:21 am

TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:29 am
Yeah, its a simple question. If what Beerus says is true, why has no god of destruction ever surpassed their own angel?
Maybe because in terms of strength the gap is ridiculously large and we’ve never seen any GoD even bother to get stronger than their masters, plus the fact that they have a specific role in the balance of the universe and don’t stay all the time training like Goku / Vegeta? They are at the top of the universe and they have a job to do, why would they want that?
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:29 am
I don't like how easy this technique or form is being given to Vegeta. Watch and steal? That's not going to feel prestigious at all. Comes across like any Z fighter could have done it.
Pretty obvious that Beerus is just being proud since he would never admit that he would train anyone. Instead he calls Vegeta to face him and tells him to take the opportunity and 'steal' the technique.

We don't even know if Vegeta is going to learn this now since there are usually training arcs during the DB stories, this scene is just introducing a new way for him to follow his path and getting Beerus to demonstrate this new technique for him. At this point a lot of what you're talking about seems like just nitpick and assumptions based on very little information
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 9:46 am

UI as the ultimate form has already been retconned. I guess they got away with it by saying there are multiple levels to UI, I will give them that

But they had to do something because now that Goku has Mastered UI (except I guess he hasn’t) he couldn’t beat every opponent because what would be the point


Bottom line is they always make the new power up sound all powerful, the ultimate goal until it’s not. It was the same thing with Super Saiyan back in the day.
Ultra Instinct being the Ultimate technique of the Gods had not been retconned yet. I'm not talking specifically about the form Goku is using, but the technique itself. In this chapter a new Godly technique that can rival that is provided, so things have changed. I'm not saying this is a problem, just pointing out that it looks like a retcon

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Kinokima » Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:37 am

Another thing to note is Beerus’s personality is much closer to Vegeta’s . And Whis and Goku are more similar

Beerus and Vegeta even both give a classic Tch this chapter lol. So from a thematic point of view Goku following Whis’ style and Vegeta’s Beerus also makes sense

Do I wish they had come up with this earlier? Sure! But I think it’s fine to change paths if it will make things more interesting in the long run.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:48 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:37 am
Another thing to note is Beerus’s personality is much closer to Vegeta’s . And Whis and Goku are more similar

Beerus and Vegeta even both give a classic Tch this chapter lol. So from a thematic point of view Goku following Whis’ style and Vegeta’s Beerus also makes sense

Do I wish they had come up with this earlier? Sure! But I think it’s fine to change paths if it will make things more interesting in the long run.
I tend to agree with your points!

You know, I always saw Vegeta with a more suited personality to something different and now finally it will happen.

I am seriously intrigued to see how will his new form be!

Hope it does not have much difference visually but being instead like an evolution not a revolution regarding his physical appearence.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 am
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:12 am
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:06 am



Again it was ONE scene. Sure it was a very nice moment and certainly better than what the anime did but there was no true journey or struggle to specifically get UI. They just built on previous history Goku had. I am not saying it was a bad moment but you are overemphasizing it to downgrade Vegeta.

Vegeta’s journey as a character has never been about him as martial artists anyways. His journey has been about how he has changed as a character and there were plenty instances of that in the last arc.
The same last arc where he denied he changed at all and said he was destined for hell cos villain?

Vegeta achieving a rival form to MUI this arc devalues MUI too, when its already been devalued by Whis from being "Unbeatable" (says Merus) to "Just the beginning".

For Vegeta to achieve a form with prestige as well as protect that of UI, he needs to put the years in and almost kill himself to achieve this shit. Anything less is a handwave.
Because you completely missed the point of that scene. Vegeta may see himself as bound for hell because he thinks that is what he deserves (whether that is true or not is besides the point). He doesn’t think all the good he can do is enough but he still wants to help others. So yes that entire chapter showed Vegeta changed. If Piccolo beating it over your head in the chapter wasn’t enough which I guess it wasn’t for some.

Do I think Vegeta will get a move to beat a main villain? No. Do I think Vegeta will catch up to Goku eventually? Possibly. Do I think he will surpass Goku when it matters? No .

But that shouldn’t matter. Vegeta can learn something that is worthwhile even if it is not better than what Goku has. Vegeta may not reach his goal to surpass Goku (if he did he would have no goal) but he always gets stronger in the process. He’s not Mastered UI level but after the last arc he is about Omen level. That’s a significant improvement from where he was before and above most other characters in the series.


And of course MUI wasn’t going to be unbeatable. The series is still ongoing. Anyone thinking otherwise was being dense.
Vegeta was objectively proven not to be a villain by the Eternal Dragon in the Buu arc. Him going back to calling himself a villain is an extreme regression. Why do fans feel the need to reinterpret his words to fit a more favourable interpretation? He did't say " I deserve hell for all the wrong I've done", he said "I AM a villain, and I AM going to hell". If its not in the story, I'm not gonna do the writer's work for them and assume he means other than what he says.

The DB formula dictates that Vegeta must very briefly surpass Goku in order to sell the new villain as a wall for Goku to overcome. I don't think they should do that this time. They chose to make the gap very big this time and have Vegeta only advance from mildly weaker than Omen to slightly stronger. They need to live with the creative decision they made and believably develop Vegeta to a higher level. Not just hand wave him way up to MUI in a single arc even despite Goku's inevitable progression in said arc.

That kills suspension of disbelief dead. And it does devalue both MUI and especially this new form. Lets say Vegeta gets a Super Saiyan violet. It doesn't make him special at all if it was easily gained. What makes it and him special is the brutality and harshness and years and paid dues to earn it. That's what makes it look like less of an obvious formulaic story mechanic to just get him up to the level where he can job and put over Goku.

He'll probably lose in the same chapter its featured again, so it won't even get put over. :roll:

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Kinokima » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:46 pm

TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 am
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:12 am


The same last arc where he denied he changed at all and said he was destined for hell cos villain?

Vegeta achieving a rival form to MUI this arc devalues MUI too, when its already been devalued by Whis from being "Unbeatable" (says Merus) to "Just the beginning".

For Vegeta to achieve a form with prestige as well as protect that of UI, he needs to put the years in and almost kill himself to achieve this shit. Anything less is a handwave.
Because you completely missed the point of that scene. Vegeta may see himself as bound for hell because he thinks that is what he deserves (whether that is true or not is besides the point). He doesn’t think all the good he can do is enough but he still wants to help others. So yes that entire chapter showed Vegeta changed. If Piccolo beating it over your head in the chapter wasn’t enough which I guess it wasn’t for some.

Do I think Vegeta will get a move to beat a main villain? No. Do I think Vegeta will catch up to Goku eventually? Possibly. Do I think he will surpass Goku when it matters? No .

But that shouldn’t matter. Vegeta can learn something that is worthwhile even if it is not better than what Goku has. Vegeta may not reach his goal to surpass Goku (if he did he would have no goal) but he always gets stronger in the process. He’s not Mastered UI level but after the last arc he is about Omen level. That’s a significant improvement from where he was before and above most other characters in the series.


And of course MUI wasn’t going to be unbeatable. The series is still ongoing. Anyone thinking otherwise was being dense.
Vegeta was objectively proven not to be a villain by the Eternal Dragon in the Buu arc. Him going back to calling himself a villain is an extreme regression. Why do fans feel the need to reinterpret his words to fit a more favourable interpretation? He did't say " I deserve hell for all the wrong I've done", he said "I AM a villain, and I AM going to hell". If its not in the story, I'm not gonna do the writer's work for them and assume he means other than what he says.

The DB formula dictates that Vegeta must very briefly surpass Goku in order to sell the new villain as a wall for Goku to overcome. I don't think they should do that this time. They chose to make the gap very big this time and have Vegeta only advance from mildly weaker than Omen to slightly stronger. They need to live with the creative decision they made and believably develop Vegeta to a higher level. Not just hand wave him way up to MUI in a single arc even despite Goku's inevitable progression in said arc.

That kills suspension of disbelief dead. And it does devalue both MUI and especially this new form. Lets say Vegeta gets a Super Saiyan violet. It doesn't make him special at all if it was easily gained. What makes it and him special is the brutality and harshness and years and paid dues to earn it. That's what makes it look like less of an obvious formulaic story mechanic to just get him up to the level where he can job and put over Goku.

He'll probably lose in the same chapter its featured again, so it won't even get put over. :roll:
I am not inventing anything. Piccolo literally said what Vegeta was doing in that very same chapter: trying to atone. It wasn’t subtle at all. Toyo was literally beating you over the head with it. In But by Vegeta saying he is going to hell means he doesn’t think it’s enough. It’s not like this is overly complex. In fact I felt the parts with Piccolo and Goku were clumsy exposition but since even with that it wasn’t obvious to everyone what Vegeta meant by that line I guess it was needed after all.

There is no regression here. Vegeta who is now a good guy can judge himself for his past the most harshly. It doesn’t matter that others see him as a good guy now who has atoned, he doesn’t feel he has done enough himself. He doesn’t literally need to say this word for word to Moro.


As for the rest you are making assumptions that Vegeta is going to get this new power right away. We don’t even know what this new power is except it’s related to Beerus. You are judging something before we know anything about it.


As for it going to fast Goku literally went from going to Omen at will to mastering MUI in one arc. But apparently that same progression would be too fast for Vegeta for you.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:56 pm

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:46 pm
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 am


Because you completely missed the point of that scene. Vegeta may see himself as bound for hell because he thinks that is what he deserves (whether that is true or not is besides the point). He doesn’t think all the good he can do is enough but he still wants to help others. So yes that entire chapter showed Vegeta changed. If Piccolo beating it over your head in the chapter wasn’t enough which I guess it wasn’t for some.

Do I think Vegeta will get a move to beat a main villain? No. Do I think Vegeta will catch up to Goku eventually? Possibly. Do I think he will surpass Goku when it matters? No .

But that shouldn’t matter. Vegeta can learn something that is worthwhile even if it is not better than what Goku has. Vegeta may not reach his goal to surpass Goku (if he did he would have no goal) but he always gets stronger in the process. He’s not Mastered UI level but after the last arc he is about Omen level. That’s a significant improvement from where he was before and above most other characters in the series.


And of course MUI wasn’t going to be unbeatable. The series is still ongoing. Anyone thinking otherwise was being dense.
Vegeta was objectively proven not to be a villain by the Eternal Dragon in the Buu arc. Him going back to calling himself a villain is an extreme regression. Why do fans feel the need to reinterpret his words to fit a more favourable interpretation? He did't say " I deserve hell for all the wrong I've done", he said "I AM a villain, and I AM going to hell". If its not in the story, I'm not gonna do the writer's work for them and assume he means other than what he says.

The DB formula dictates that Vegeta must very briefly surpass Goku in order to sell the new villain as a wall for Goku to overcome. I don't think they should do that this time. They chose to make the gap very big this time and have Vegeta only advance from mildly weaker than Omen to slightly stronger. They need to live with the creative decision they made and believably develop Vegeta to a higher level. Not just hand wave him way up to MUI in a single arc even despite Goku's inevitable progression in said arc.

That kills suspension of disbelief dead. And it does devalue both MUI and especially this new form. Lets say Vegeta gets a Super Saiyan violet. It doesn't make him special at all if it was easily gained. What makes it and him special is the brutality and harshness and years and paid dues to earn it. That's what makes it look like less of an obvious formulaic story mechanic to just get him up to the level where he can job and put over Goku.

He'll probably lose in the same chapter its featured again, so it won't even get put over. :roll:
I am not inventing anything. Piccolo literally said what Vegeta was doing in that very same chapter: trying to atone. It wasn’t subtle at all. Toyo was literally beating you over the head with it. In But by Vegeta saying he is going to hell means he doesn’t think it’s enough. It’s not like this is overly complex. In fact I felt the parts with Piccolo and Goku were clumsy exposition but since even with that it wasn’t obvious to everyone what Vegeta meant by that line I guess it was needed after all.

There is no regression here. Vegeta who is now a good guy can judge himself for his past the most harshly. It doesn’t matter that others see him as a good guy now who has atoned, he doesn’t feel he has done enough himself. He doesn’t literally need to say this word for word to Moro.


As for the rest you are making assumptions that Vegeta is going to get this new power right away. We don’t even know what this new power is except it’s related to Beerus. You are judging something before we know anything about it.


As for it going to fast Goku literally went from going to Omen at will to mastering MUI in one arc. But apparently that same progression would be too fast for Vegeta for you.
And should I add on less than 45 minutes!

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:53 am

Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:46 pm
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 am


Because you completely missed the point of that scene. Vegeta may see himself as bound for hell because he thinks that is what he deserves (whether that is true or not is besides the point). He doesn’t think all the good he can do is enough but he still wants to help others. So yes that entire chapter showed Vegeta changed. If Piccolo beating it over your head in the chapter wasn’t enough which I guess it wasn’t for some.

Do I think Vegeta will get a move to beat a main villain? No. Do I think Vegeta will catch up to Goku eventually? Possibly. Do I think he will surpass Goku when it matters? No .

But that shouldn’t matter. Vegeta can learn something that is worthwhile even if it is not better than what Goku has. Vegeta may not reach his goal to surpass Goku (if he did he would have no goal) but he always gets stronger in the process. He’s not Mastered UI level but after the last arc he is about Omen level. That’s a significant improvement from where he was before and above most other characters in the series.


And of course MUI wasn’t going to be unbeatable. The series is still ongoing. Anyone thinking otherwise was being dense.
Vegeta was objectively proven not to be a villain by the Eternal Dragon in the Buu arc. Him going back to calling himself a villain is an extreme regression. Why do fans feel the need to reinterpret his words to fit a more favourable interpretation? He did't say " I deserve hell for all the wrong I've done", he said "I AM a villain, and I AM going to hell". If its not in the story, I'm not gonna do the writer's work for them and assume he means other than what he says.

The DB formula dictates that Vegeta must very briefly surpass Goku in order to sell the new villain as a wall for Goku to overcome. I don't think they should do that this time. They chose to make the gap very big this time and have Vegeta only advance from mildly weaker than Omen to slightly stronger. They need to live with the creative decision they made and believably develop Vegeta to a higher level. Not just hand wave him way up to MUI in a single arc even despite Goku's inevitable progression in said arc.

That kills suspension of disbelief dead. And it does devalue both MUI and especially this new form. Lets say Vegeta gets a Super Saiyan violet. It doesn't make him special at all if it was easily gained. What makes it and him special is the brutality and harshness and years and paid dues to earn it. That's what makes it look like less of an obvious formulaic story mechanic to just get him up to the level where he can job and put over Goku.

He'll probably lose in the same chapter its featured again, so it won't even get put over. :roll:
I am not inventing anything. Piccolo literally said what Vegeta was doing in that very same chapter: trying to atone. It wasn’t subtle at all. Toyo was literally beating you over the head with it. In But by Vegeta saying he is going to hell means he doesn’t think it’s enough. It’s not like this is overly complex. In fact I felt the parts with Piccolo and Goku were clumsy exposition but since even with that it wasn’t obvious to everyone what Vegeta meant by that line I guess it was needed after all.

There is no regression here. Vegeta who is now a good guy can judge himself for his past the most harshly. It doesn’t matter that others see him as a good guy now who has atoned, he doesn’t feel he has done enough himself. He doesn’t literally need to say this word for word to Moro.


As for the rest you are making assumptions that Vegeta is going to get this new power right away. We don’t even know what this new power is except it’s related to Beerus. You are judging something before we know anything about it.


As for it going to fast Goku literally went from going to Omen at will to mastering MUI in one arc. But apparently that same progression would be too fast for Vegeta for you.
The same Piccolo who said Vegeta never underestimates his opponents? What Piccolo thinks has no bearing on how Vegeta sees himself. Its completely irrelvant. Vegeta outright says he's a villain and he's going to hell. And then there was a little thing called a period at the end. (.)

Vegeta's almost certainly going to get it within this arc, and thats too fast.

Yes, Goku should NOT have mastered UI in one arc. Now he can control it, Toriyama is forced to nerf it hard to continue the story without even giving it much time to shine. Now instead of "unbeatable", its's just the beginning. And potentially beatable by something Vegeta can learn likely within in this arc. So essentially MUI is already a jobber form. Thats what happens when its given to Goku so fast and he can control it. So now Blue has no role anymore. He should just be able to control Omen. That's it. But no, now both MUI and Vegeta's new thing are gonna be jobbers. Again I'm certain Vegeta won't even get put over and will lose in the same chapter it debuts again

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:22 am

TBMx wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:53 am
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:46 pm
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm


Vegeta was objectively proven not to be a villain by the Eternal Dragon in the Buu arc. Him going back to calling himself a villain is an extreme regression. Why do fans feel the need to reinterpret his words to fit a more favourable interpretation? He did't say " I deserve hell for all the wrong I've done", he said "I AM a villain, and I AM going to hell". If its not in the story, I'm not gonna do the writer's work for them and assume he means other than what he says.

The DB formula dictates that Vegeta must very briefly surpass Goku in order to sell the new villain as a wall for Goku to overcome. I don't think they should do that this time. They chose to make the gap very big this time and have Vegeta only advance from mildly weaker than Omen to slightly stronger. They need to live with the creative decision they made and believably develop Vegeta to a higher level. Not just hand wave him way up to MUI in a single arc even despite Goku's inevitable progression in said arc.

That kills suspension of disbelief dead. And it does devalue both MUI and especially this new form. Lets say Vegeta gets a Super Saiyan violet. It doesn't make him special at all if it was easily gained. What makes it and him special is the brutality and harshness and years and paid dues to earn it. That's what makes it look like less of an obvious formulaic story mechanic to just get him up to the level where he can job and put over Goku.

He'll probably lose in the same chapter its featured again, so it won't even get put over. :roll:
I am not inventing anything. Piccolo literally said what Vegeta was doing in that very same chapter: trying to atone. It wasn’t subtle at all. Toyo was literally beating you over the head with it. In But by Vegeta saying he is going to hell means he doesn’t think it’s enough. It’s not like this is overly complex. In fact I felt the parts with Piccolo and Goku were clumsy exposition but since even with that it wasn’t obvious to everyone what Vegeta meant by that line I guess it was needed after all.

There is no regression here. Vegeta who is now a good guy can judge himself for his past the most harshly. It doesn’t matter that others see him as a good guy now who has atoned, he doesn’t feel he has done enough himself. He doesn’t literally need to say this word for word to Moro.


As for the rest you are making assumptions that Vegeta is going to get this new power right away. We don’t even know what this new power is except it’s related to Beerus. You are judging something before we know anything about it.


As for it going to fast Goku literally went from going to Omen at will to mastering MUI in one arc. But apparently that same progression would be too fast for Vegeta for you.
The same Piccolo who said Vegeta never underestimates his opponents? What Piccolo thinks has no bearing on how Vegeta sees himself. Its completely irrelvant. Vegeta outright says he's a villain and he's going to hell. And then there was a little thing called a period at the end. (.)

Vegeta's almost certainly going to get it within this arc, and thats too fast.

Yes, Goku should NOT have mastered UI in one arc. Now he can control it, Toriyama is forced to nerf it hard to continue the story without even giving it much time to shine. Now instead of "unbeatable", its's just the beginning. And potentially beatable by something Vegeta can learn likely within in this arc. So essentially MUI is already a jobber form. Thats what happens when its given to Goku so fast and he can control it. So now Blue has no role anymore. He should just be able to control Omen. That's it. But no, now both MUI and Vegeta's new thing are gonna be jobbers. Again I'm certain Vegeta won't even get put over and will lose in the same chapter it debuts again

You act like they are real people and Piccolo doesn’t know what he is talking about. Piccolo was literally acting as a mouth piece for Toyo in that chapter

Sure the line about never underestimating his opponents was a little dumb. Although one can make an argument that Vegeta gets too cocky and overestimates himself not reads his opponent wrong. Not saying that Toyo never writers a stupid line. But saying we shouldn’t take what Piccolo says at face value because Toyo wrote him saying a stupid line is pretty silly.

But besides what Piccolo said that chapter about Vegeta wanting to atone. Let’s look at Vegeta that entire arc

* Saved Esca and said he didn’t want any more harm to come to the Namekians because he had harmed them enough
* Asked the Namekian Elder what he thought of him
* Told Goku to wish back the Planet Namek if he didn’t make it
* Trained on Yadrat in a method he is not comfortable with to help to save Earth
* Gained a power that restored the Namekians back to life

But yeah Vegeta’s line about being a villain is regression apparently :roll:

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:38 am

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:22 am
TBMx wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:53 am
Kinokima wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:46 pm


I am not inventing anything. Piccolo literally said what Vegeta was doing in that very same chapter: trying to atone. It wasn’t subtle at all. Toyo was literally beating you over the head with it. In But by Vegeta saying he is going to hell means he doesn’t think it’s enough. It’s not like this is overly complex. In fact I felt the parts with Piccolo and Goku were clumsy exposition but since even with that it wasn’t obvious to everyone what Vegeta meant by that line I guess it was needed after all.

There is no regression here. Vegeta who is now a good guy can judge himself for his past the most harshly. It doesn’t matter that others see him as a good guy now who has atoned, he doesn’t feel he has done enough himself. He doesn’t literally need to say this word for word to Moro.


As for the rest you are making assumptions that Vegeta is going to get this new power right away. We don’t even know what this new power is except it’s related to Beerus. You are judging something before we know anything about it.


As for it going to fast Goku literally went from going to Omen at will to mastering MUI in one arc. But apparently that same progression would be too fast for Vegeta for you.
The same Piccolo who said Vegeta never underestimates his opponents? What Piccolo thinks has no bearing on how Vegeta sees himself. Its completely irrelvant. Vegeta outright says he's a villain and he's going to hell. And then there was a little thing called a period at the end. (.)

Vegeta's almost certainly going to get it within this arc, and thats too fast.

Yes, Goku should NOT have mastered UI in one arc. Now he can control it, Toriyama is forced to nerf it hard to continue the story without even giving it much time to shine. Now instead of "unbeatable", its's just the beginning. And potentially beatable by something Vegeta can learn likely within in this arc. So essentially MUI is already a jobber form. Thats what happens when its given to Goku so fast and he can control it. So now Blue has no role anymore. He should just be able to control Omen. That's it. But no, now both MUI and Vegeta's new thing are gonna be jobbers. Again I'm certain Vegeta won't even get put over and will lose in the same chapter it debuts again

You act like they are real people and Piccolo doesn’t know what he is talking about. Piccolo was literally acting as a mouth piece for Toyo in that chapter

Sure the line about never underestimating his opponents was a little dumb. Although one can make an argument that Vegeta gets too cocky and overestimates himself not reads his opponent wrong. Not saying that Toyo never writers a stupid line. But saying we shouldn’t take what Piccolo says at face value because Toyo wrote him saying a stupid line is pretty silly.

But besides what Piccolo said that chapter about Vegeta wanting to atone. Let’s look at Vegeta that entire arc

* Saved Esca and said he didn’t want any more harm to come to the Namekians because he had harmed them enough
* Asked the Namekian Elder what he thought of him
* Told Goku to wish back the Planet Namek if he didn’t make it
* Trained on Yadrat in a method he is not comfortable with to help to save Earth
* Gained a power that restored the Namekians back to life

But yeah Vegeta’s line about being a villain is regression apparently :roll:
Doesn't matter, because to Vegeta none of that matters. Still villain.

But this topic's about Vegeta's new "form", so lets bring it back to that.

When we saw Vegeta meditating, balancing his body and mind and polishing his spirit better than Goku's in a fraction of the time, 95% of us thought this must be prepping him for UItra Instinct. We didn't think he'd go right back to raging like an idiot in the same arc, and we certainly didn't think he'd be getting the same bum form that dumbass Toppo got in the anime and did absolutely nothing with besides get defeated, that Vegeta himself raged against him for having. Now it looks to be going that way. It's the ultimate disrepect.

Only Toriyama would give Vegeta a form that got buried already. :lol: :lolno:

Basically the last arc didn't matter to him. None of the spirit control calmness stuck and he can only used FSF on people he can hit, making it basically useless. You can't tell me Vegeta's strength jump from a little below Omen to a little above it was all that impressive in the Moro arc.

While Goku was given so much in the last arc, they have to panic nerf him now. :lol:

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:46 am

TBMx wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:38 am
Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:22 am
TBMx wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:53 am


The same Piccolo who said Vegeta never underestimates his opponents? What Piccolo thinks has no bearing on how Vegeta sees himself. Its completely irrelvant. Vegeta outright says he's a villain and he's going to hell. And then there was a little thing called a period at the end. (.)

Vegeta's almost certainly going to get it within this arc, and thats too fast.

Yes, Goku should NOT have mastered UI in one arc. Now he can control it, Toriyama is forced to nerf it hard to continue the story without even giving it much time to shine. Now instead of "unbeatable", its's just the beginning. And potentially beatable by something Vegeta can learn likely within in this arc. So essentially MUI is already a jobber form. Thats what happens when its given to Goku so fast and he can control it. So now Blue has no role anymore. He should just be able to control Omen. That's it. But no, now both MUI and Vegeta's new thing are gonna be jobbers. Again I'm certain Vegeta won't even get put over and will lose in the same chapter it debuts again

You act like they are real people and Piccolo doesn’t know what he is talking about. Piccolo was literally acting as a mouth piece for Toyo in that chapter

Sure the line about never underestimating his opponents was a little dumb. Although one can make an argument that Vegeta gets too cocky and overestimates himself not reads his opponent wrong. Not saying that Toyo never writers a stupid line. But saying we shouldn’t take what Piccolo says at face value because Toyo wrote him saying a stupid line is pretty silly.

But besides what Piccolo said that chapter about Vegeta wanting to atone. Let’s look at Vegeta that entire arc

* Saved Esca and said he didn’t want any more harm to come to the Namekians because he had harmed them enough
* Asked the Namekian Elder what he thought of him
* Told Goku to wish back the Planet Namek if he didn’t make it
* Trained on Yadrat in a method he is not comfortable with to help to save Earth
* Gained a power that restored the Namekians back to life

But yeah Vegeta’s line about being a villain is regression apparently :roll:
Doesn't matter, because to Vegeta none of that matters. Still villain.

It doesn’t matter to you because context means nothing to you. Like I said you missed the entire point of that villain line.

There is no point discussing Vegeta’s new form to you. You make prejudgment based on absolutely nothing.

I like how you just throw random statistics of 95% people thought this. Again you miss things that were obviously said in previous chapters. Vegeta had already said UI didn’t suit him . Literally NOTHING said spirit control would make Vegeta better suited for Ultra Instinct. I don’t remember Vegeta thinking about UI once when he was training on Yadrat.

It’s basically people making false assumptions and then saying the writing is bad because it didn’t match up with those false assumptions.

Finally another false assumption spirit control means you will always be calm and never upset. Something that literally was never said ever in the context of Vegeta’s training.

Now you are making another false assumption that he is going to get the same form as Toppo in the anime. A form that literally made no appearance in the manga. But yeah that is obviously the form Vegeta is going to get here.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by PowerLevel Science » Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:52 am

That's HA with Super Saiyan Blue and SP combined.

I really liked. But still, he's weaker than Broli.
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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:13 am

Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:46 am
TBMx wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:38 am
Kinokima wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:22 am



You act like they are real people and Piccolo doesn’t know what he is talking about. Piccolo was literally acting as a mouth piece for Toyo in that chapter

Sure the line about never underestimating his opponents was a little dumb. Although one can make an argument that Vegeta gets too cocky and overestimates himself not reads his opponent wrong. Not saying that Toyo never writers a stupid line. But saying we shouldn’t take what Piccolo says at face value because Toyo wrote him saying a stupid line is pretty silly.

But besides what Piccolo said that chapter about Vegeta wanting to atone. Let’s look at Vegeta that entire arc

* Saved Esca and said he didn’t want any more harm to come to the Namekians because he had harmed them enough
* Asked the Namekian Elder what he thought of him
* Told Goku to wish back the Planet Namek if he didn’t make it
* Trained on Yadrat in a method he is not comfortable with to help to save Earth
* Gained a power that restored the Namekians back to life

But yeah Vegeta’s line about being a villain is regression apparently :roll:
Doesn't matter, because to Vegeta none of that matters. Still villain.

It doesn’t matter to you because context means nothing to you. Like I said you missed the entire point of that villain line.

There is no point discussing Vegeta’s new form to you. You make prejudgment based on absolutely nothing.

I like how you just throw random statistics of 95% people thought this. Again you miss things that were obviously said in previous chapters. Vegeta had already said UI didn’t suit him . Literally NOTHING said spirit control would make Vegeta better suited for Ultra Instinct. I don’t remember Vegeta thinking about UI once when he was training on Yadrat.

It’s basically people making false assumptions and then saying the writing is bad because it didn’t match up with those false assumptions.

Finally another false assumption spirit control means you will always be calm and never upset. Something that literally was never said ever in the context of Vegeta’s training.

Now you are making another false assumption that he is going to get the same form as Toppo in the anime. A form that literally made no appearance in the manga. But yeah that is obviously the form Vegeta is going to get here.
And you say I ignore context? Wow. Nothing about meditating on a needle for days and calming his mind and balancing and polishing his sprit would seem like prep for UI? Are we reading the same manga?

Vegeta saying it doesn't suit him is a cop out and an excuse. As big as him suddenly forgetting Teleportation. He spent 4 years training with Whis, exceeded Goku's spirit control through intense meditaton, and seems to have enough incredible control over his mind to selectively boost his thoughts to past lightspeed in order to overthink at that speed in the first place. That seems like a lot of suiting him to me. We know he doesn't normally think that fast as both Frieza and Moro clowned him at the moment of the kill.

But this all comes back to the fact that emptying your mind was such a fundamental, all the way back in early dragonball. And the absurdity DBS proposes that the likes of Mr Popo is better at it in spite of everything Vegeta's been through.

Vegeta and Beerus' sudden relationship is basically a bunch of nonsense thats transparently trying to cover for something Vegeta says he can't do and as such Vegeta comes across as an immense wuss in the last chapter that is desperate to cling onto any suggestion. If Vegeta's such a prodigy who needs no mentor as he claimed in the same breath that UI doesn't suit him, then why doesn't he back it up and show us and come up with something by himself? :roll:

Instead of looking all Beta and submissive when Beerus vaguely suggested something.

And lets cover the Toppo thing real quick. I said - SEEMS to be going that way. If Vegeta learns a new thing thats fresh and original then we'll cross that bridge when he come to it.
Last edited by TBMx on Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:17 am

TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Vegeta was objectively proven not to be a villain by the Eternal Dragon in the Buu arc. Him going back to calling himself a villain is an extreme regression. Why do fans feel the need to reinterpret his words to fit a more favourable interpretation? He did't say " I deserve hell for all the wrong I've done", he said "I AM a villain, and I AM going to hell". If its not in the story, I'm not gonna do the writer's work for them and assume he means other than what he says.
Oh come off it, Vegeta saying "I deserve Hell" is effectively no different and would probably incur the same amount of senseless whinging.

Nobody is trying to change the meaning of what Vegeta is saying, he clearly does mean it, but that doesn't mean the story agrees with it. Piccolo doesn't agree with it, we're clearly not supposed to agree with it. We know that Vegeta is a good person now and is certainly not hellbound, the universe itself has told him so, but that doesn't mean Vegeta has to accept it. If you've gleefully committed genocide on whole planets in your past, would you? Naturally, he judges himself differently. Ignoring his recent grappling with his past crimes and failures, Vegeta has never been keen on referring to himself as a hero, he still likes to project an image of villainy to intimidate others and generally thinks he's too cool to be lumped in with the goody-two-shoes. If he performs a selfless heroic act, he'll usually cover himself with some weak excuse as to why he really did it (e.g. "Don't get the wrong idea, I only saved Kakarot because I need this baka to get stronger"). That's Vegeta, our chronic tsundere, but his humble refusal of any heroic adulation is a sign of true growth.

What alternative you would prefer, Vegeta suddenly blathering about how he's about to dispense justice against evil?

Like, very small children can comprehend this extremely basic level of nuance in writing. As Kinokima has explained, the narrative is practically screaming all this at you.
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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by TBMx » Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:25 am

LoganForkHands73 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:17 am
TBMx wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:31 pm
Vegeta was objectively proven not to be a villain by the Eternal Dragon in the Buu arc. Him going back to calling himself a villain is an extreme regression. Why do fans feel the need to reinterpret his words to fit a more favourable interpretation? He did't say " I deserve hell for all the wrong I've done", he said "I AM a villain, and I AM going to hell". If its not in the story, I'm not gonna do the writer's work for them and assume he means other than what he says.
Oh come off it, Vegeta saying "I deserve Hell" is effectively no different and would probably incur the same amount of senseless whinging.

Nobody is trying to change the meaning of what Vegeta is saying, he clearly does mean it, but that doesn't mean the story agrees with it. Piccolo doesn't agree with it, we're clearly not supposed to agree with it. We know that Vegeta is a good person now and is certainly not hellbound, the universe itself has told him so, but that doesn't mean Vegeta has to accept it. If you've gleefully committed genocide on whole planets in your past, would you? Naturally, he judges himself differently. Ignoring his recent grappling with his past crimes and failures, Vegeta has never been keen on referring to himself as a hero, he still likes to project an image of villainy to intimidate others and generally thinks he's too cool to be lumped in with the goody-two-shoes. If he performs a selfless heroic act, he'll usually cover himself with some weak excuse as to why he really did it (e.g. "Don't get the wrong idea, I only saved Kakarot because I need this baka to get stronger"). That's Vegeta, our chronic tsundere, but his humble refusal of any heroic adulation is a sign of true growth.

What alternative you would prefer, Vegeta suddenly blathering about how he's about to dispense justice against evil?

Like, very small children can comprehend this extremely basic level of nuance in writing. As Kinokima has explained, the narrative is practically screaming all this at you.
I don't care that the story doesn't agree with it because Vegeta doesn't care. If he doesn't there's no reason I should. That in itself is the regression. You didn't see Vegeta contesting Goku's assertion that he was a good guy in the Buu saga did you? No.

Again, this is off topic, so lets move on from it.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:28 pm

TBMx wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 11:25 am
You didn't see Vegeta contesting Goku's assertion that he was a good guy in the Buu saga did you? No.
To be fair, he was visibly irritated by Goku's comment.
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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by pepd » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:56 pm

Is unlikely that this technique will also be incompatible with SS, so I think (and hope) he will use it with SSB, specially since now he is the only user of it and fits him best to him. This, with the fact that right now Vegeta is stronger that Goku without MnG, makes credible for Vejita to rival Goku without the new technique being as powerful as MnG.

The recolor worked great for SSG/B and fine for MnG, but I think more would be falling in what some accuse the former of being. Of course, it will depend on the nature of the technique of which we know nothing about, but I would prefer no visual change at all.

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:17 pm

pepd wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:56 pm
Is unlikely that this technique will also be incompatible with SS, so I think (and hope) he will use it with SSB, specially since now he is the only user of it and fits him best to him. This, with the fact that right now Vegeta is stronger that Goku without MnG, makes credible for Vejita to rival Goku without the new technique being as powerful as MnG.

The recolor worked great for SSG/B and fine for MnG, but I think more would be falling in what some accuse the former of being. Of course, it will depend on the nature of the technique of which we know nothing about, but I would prefer no visual change at all.
What if is just a different aura?

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by pepd » Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:26 am

Gogeta SSJ Blue wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:17 pm
pepd wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:56 pm
Is unlikely that this technique will also be incompatible with SS, so I think (and hope) he will use it with SSB, specially since now he is the only user of it and fits him best to him. This, with the fact that right now Vegeta is stronger that Goku without MnG, makes credible for Vejita to rival Goku without the new technique being as powerful as MnG.

The recolor worked great for SSG/B and fine for MnG, but I think more would be falling in what some accuse the former of being. Of course, it will depend on the nature of the technique of which we know nothing about, but I would prefer no visual change at all.
What if is just a different aura?
I'm not a fan of DBS auras, and the absence of aura has already been used, so I'm inclined to find the idea unattractive; but depending on the execution and technique I guess anything could work

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Re: Vegeta new form?

Post by Gogeta SSJ Blue » Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:59 pm

pepd wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:26 am
Gogeta SSJ Blue wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:17 pm
pepd wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:56 pm
Is unlikely that this technique will also be incompatible with SS, so I think (and hope) he will use it with SSB, specially since now he is the only user of it and fits him best to him. This, with the fact that right now Vegeta is stronger that Goku without MnG, makes credible for Vejita to rival Goku without the new technique being as powerful as MnG.

The recolor worked great for SSG/B and fine for MnG, but I think more would be falling in what some accuse the former of being. Of course, it will depend on the nature of the technique of which we know nothing about, but I would prefer no visual change at all.
What if is just a different aura?
I'm not a fan of DBS auras, and the absence of aura has already been used, so I'm inclined to find the idea unattractive; but depending on the execution and technique I guess anything could work
That's about it!

We'll have to see how well hopefully it will be implemented.

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