Retcon in the most recent chapter of DBS?

[TheSaiyanGod]

So, just to be clear, I'm not implying that this is a bad thing or saying that I didn't like it. Particularly, I find it interesting that there are other Godly techniques besides Ultra Instinct and that their use (or mastery) seems to be conditioned to how well it fits with the user.

But remembering that in chapter 39, Whis says that the UI is the ultimate technique. The reaction of the other GoDs also reinforces the idea that this technique seems to be at the top among the Gods

Spoiler:

However, in chapter 68, in addition to revealing that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods, Beerus also implies that this mysterious technique can rival the UI itself (he also considers that Vegeta can overcome Goku by following this other path).

Furthermore, Beerus also does not present the UI as the ultimate technique, instead he says that it is just that this is the specialty of the angels in particular apparently (according to his description, it seems to be because of their nature and how it fits with the UI).

So, would that be considered a retcon? What is your opinion about this? As I said, I don't see it as a problem, but there seems to be a change from the original idea.

[Koitsukai]

I don't recall Beerus saying it rivals UI, only that it fits the GoDs better, with all that mindfulness stuff. And he is still trying to get UI and has to swallow his pride when Goku gets it, so no, I wouldn't call it a retcon.

[GodVegetto91]

So, just to be clear, I'm not implying that this is a bad thing or saying that I didn't like it. Particularly, I find it interesting that there are other Godly techniques besides Ultra Instinct and that their use (or mastery) seems to be conditioned to how well it fits with the user.

But remembering that in chapter 39, Whis says that the UI is the ultimate technique. The reaction of the other GoDs also reinforces the idea that this technique seems to be at the top among the Gods

Spoiler:

However, in chapter 68, in addition to revealing that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods, Beerus also implies that this mysterious technique can rival the UI itself (he also considers that Vegeta can overcome Goku by following this other path).

Furthermore, Beerus also does not present the UI as the ultimate technique, instead he says that it is just that this is the specialty of the angels in particular apparently (according to his description, it seems to be because of their nature and how it fits with the UI).

So, would that be considered a retcon? What is your opinion about this? As I said, I don't see it as a problem, but there seems to be a change from the original idea.

The only correct answer is PLOT. Sorry, there’s simply no alternative. No better answer. The writers wanted it to be this way. The plot requiered it. The plot demanded it. This is why retcons, plotholes, and inconsistencies exist within this franchise.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I don't think I'd call this a retcon. More like a shifting of the question.

Whis clearly thinks Ultra Instinct is the best technique there is. And he 'has the receipts', as it were: the mightiest being in existence (The Grand Priest) wields Ultra Instinct to the nth degree. But it stands to reason that it is problematic in some way when it comes to fighting with it - Goku struggled with it because of its requirements for tranquility and emotional control ("When I fight, my emotions are all over the place!"), as would most beings who aren't ordinarily neutral in their approach. As far as we know, apart from Goku, Angels are the only truly proficient wielders, and they can't battle with it.

And it also stands to reason that there should be other Divine Techniques, and the question isn't so much whether these unspecified techniques are better than Ultra Instinct, as such, but whether Vegeta can learn these other techniques well enough to get around Goku's proficiency with Ultra Instinct, since it's at "the bottom of the ladder". So I think there's enough scope within that shift of perspective for things to seem slightly different, without it actually retconning anything.

[Helios518]

So, just to be clear, I'm not implying that this is a bad thing or saying that I didn't like it. Particularly, I find it interesting that there are other Godly techniques besides Ultra Instinct and that their use (or mastery) seems to be conditioned to how well it fits with the user.

But remembering that in chapter 39, Whis says that the UI is the ultimate technique. The reaction of the other GoDs also reinforces the idea that this technique seems to be at the top among the Gods

Spoiler:

However, in chapter 68, in addition to revealing that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods, Beerus also implies that this mysterious technique can rival the UI itself (he also considers that Vegeta can overcome Goku by following this other path).

Furthermore, Beerus also does not present the UI as the ultimate technique, instead he says that it is just that this is the specialty of the angels in particular apparently (according to his description, it seems to be because of their nature and how it fits with the UI).

So, would that be considered a retcon? What is your opinion about this? As I said, I don't see it as a problem, but there seems to be a change from the original idea.

It may not be a retcon but it seems like they're doing this to still keep Beerus stronger than Goku and that's disappointing. While I liked the initial retcon of changing the strict "6-10-15" scale so that Goku has a goal that lasts a few arcs (surpassing Beerus), I think they have been dragging this out ever since after ToP.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I don't recall Beerus saying it rivals UI, only that it fits the GoDs better, with all that mindfulness stuff. And he is still trying to get UI and has to swallow his pride when Goku gets it, so no, I wouldn't call it a retcon.

Beerus implies that it may be possible for Vegeta to overcome Goku depending on what he is going to do on this different path he is looking for, and he links this to the fact that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods. Just quoting his dialogue to reiterate my point

Vegeta: I'll surpass Kakarot another way.

Beerus: Oh yeah? It might be possible, but that's up to you. Cuz Ultra Instinct ain't the only technique of the Gods.

The fact that he makes no distinction when he mentioning this technique, although the UI was previously treated as the ultimate technique of the Gods, caught my attention.

At least in the current situation, Beerus seems to have discarded the UI and is very confident about the technique in which the GoDs are specialists. In fact he has been acting that way (not bothering after seeing UI Goku) for some time, which has always struck me as weird

I don't think I'd call this a retcon. More like a shifting of the question.

Whis clearly thinks Ultra Instinct is the best technique there is. And he 'has the receipts', as it were: the mightiest being in existence (The Grand Priest) wields Ultra Instinct to the nth degree. But it stands to reason that it is problematic in some way when it comes to fighting with it - Goku struggled with it because of its requirements for tranquility and emotional control ("When I fight, my emotions are all over the place!"), as would most beings who aren't ordinarily neutral in their approach. As far as we know, apart from Goku, Angels are the only truly proficient wielders, and they can't battle with it.

And it also stands to reason that there should be other Divine Techniques, and the question isn't so much whether these unspecified techniques are better than Ultra Instinct, as such, but whether Vegeta can learn these other techniques well enough to get around Goku's proficiency with Ultra Instinct, since it's at "the bottom of the ladder". So I think there's enough scope within that shift of perspective for things to seem slightly different, without it actually retconning anything.

Yeah, maybe it's not exactly a retcon, but to me it looks like a change of direction. As I said above, this is my impression at least in the part where Beerus says that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods, only the technique in which angels are experts (the most obvious conclusion would be that they use it because it is the better technique, but instead Beerus just links it to the fact that the UI suits them and not the GoDs).

In fact, there is no direct comparison between the two. But compared to ToP, in which Beerus lost his mind when he saw Goku master the UI, now he seems to treat the alternative that he presented to Vegeta as something capable of rivaling the UI itself

[Koitsukai]

I don't recall Beerus saying it rivals UI, only that it fits the GoDs better, with all that mindfulness stuff. And he is still trying to get UI and has to swallow his pride when Goku gets it, so no, I wouldn't call it a retcon.

Beerus implies that it may be possible for Vegeta to overcome Goku depending on what he is going to do on this different path he is looking for, and he links this to the fact that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods. Just quoting his dialogue to reiterate my point

Vegeta: I'll surpass Kakarot another way.

Beerus: Oh yeah? It might be possible, but that's up to you. Cuz Ultra Instinct ain't the only technique of the Gods.

The fact that he makes no distinction when he mentioning this technique, although the UI was previously treated as the ultimate technique of the Gods, caught my attention.

At least in the current situation, Beerus seems to have discarded the UI and is very confident about the technique in which the GoDs are specialists. In fact he has been acting that way (not bothering after seeing UI Goku) for some time, which has always struck me as weird

Yeah, but it's the user, in this case Vegeta, that can rival UI, not the technique, and rivalling Goku, not just UI. Jiren rivalled UI (Goku) without any technique at all. That's why I don't see a retcon at play here. Beerus isn't pulling a technique better or at the level of UI, only one that may help Vegeta rival Goku.

We've seen Beerus using an imperfect UI not too long ago, implying that he is still having UI as his main goal, even if it doesn't fit his personality, also I doubt this new technique was discovered by him after the ToP, because he implied he isn't the only GoD using it.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yeah, but it's the user, in this case Vegeta, that can rival UI, not the technique, and rivalling Goku, not just UI. Jiren rivalled UI (Goku) without any technique at all. That's why I don't see a retcon at play here. Beerus isn't pulling a technique better or at the level of UI, only one that may help Vegeta rival Goku.

This is a possible interpretation as well, I don't disagree. Particularly I just find it intriguing the way Beerus presents this technique as an alternative to the UI, without ever making a distinction in relation to the capacity of both techniques and with the implication that Vegeta could catch Goku with it

We've seen Beerus using an imperfect UI not too long ago, implying that he is still having UI as his main goal, even if it doesn't fit his personality, also I doubt this new technique was discovered by him after the ToP, because he implied he isn't the only GoD using it.

I'm pretty sure that Toyotaro / Toriyama had not yet thought about the existence of other Godly techniques in the exhibition tournament (after all, these techniques are not mentioned and we don't see any GoD using them)

In addition to this, the use of the UI (sort of) by Beerus served more as a setup for the end of the ToP arc than as a path that he wanted to follow, which apparently has now changed since like he said in the current chapter this is not a technique that fits with GoDs, and instead they have something in which they are experts (hence the question about retcon / change of direction in this regard)

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

I don't recall Beerus saying it rivals UI, only that it fits the GoDs better, with all that mindfulness stuff. And he is still trying to get UI and has to swallow his pride when Goku gets it, so no, I wouldn't call it a retcon.

That is my opinion too!

Let's see how it will even compare.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

So, just to be clear, I'm not implying that this is a bad thing or saying that I didn't like it. Particularly, I find it interesting that there are other Godly techniques besides Ultra Instinct and that their use (or mastery) seems to be conditioned to how well it fits with the user.

But remembering that in chapter 39, Whis says that the UI is the ultimate technique. The reaction of the other GoDs also reinforces the idea that this technique seems to be at the top among the Gods

Spoiler:

However, in chapter 68, in addition to revealing that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods, Beerus also implies that this mysterious technique can rival the UI itself (he also considers that Vegeta can overcome Goku by following this other path).

Furthermore, Beerus also does not present the UI as the ultimate technique, instead he says that it is just that this is the specialty of the angels in particular apparently (according to his description, it seems to be because of their nature and how it fits with the UI).

So, would that be considered a retcon? What is your opinion about this? As I said, I don't see it as a problem, but there seems to be a change from the original idea.

It may not be a retcon but it seems like they're doing this to still keep Beerus stronger than Goku and that's disappointing. While I liked the initial retcon of changing the strict "6-10-15" scale so that Goku has a goal that lasts a few arcs (surpassing Beerus), I think they have been dragging this out ever since after ToP.

I'm glad they're keeping Beerus stronger than Goku still. It gives his character purpose, besides It's just more interesting than the opposite "Saiyans are the best", "Goku is the strongest" scenario.

[Helios518]

So, just to be clear, I'm not implying that this is a bad thing or saying that I didn't like it. Particularly, I find it interesting that there are other Godly techniques besides Ultra Instinct and that their use (or mastery) seems to be conditioned to how well it fits with the user.

But remembering that in chapter 39, Whis says that the UI is the ultimate technique. The reaction of the other GoDs also reinforces the idea that this technique seems to be at the top among the Gods

Spoiler:

However, in chapter 68, in addition to revealing that the UI is not the only technique of the Gods, Beerus also implies that this mysterious technique can rival the UI itself (he also considers that Vegeta can overcome Goku by following this other path).

Furthermore, Beerus also does not present the UI as the ultimate technique, instead he says that it is just that this is the specialty of the angels in particular apparently (according to his description, it seems to be because of their nature and how it fits with the UI).

So, would that be considered a retcon? What is your opinion about this? As I said, I don't see it as a problem, but there seems to be a change from the original idea.

It may not be a retcon but it seems like they're doing this to still keep Beerus stronger than Goku and that's disappointing. While I liked the initial retcon of changing the strict "6-10-15" scale so that Goku has a goal that lasts a few arcs (surpassing Beerus), I think they have been dragging this out ever since after ToP.

I'm glad they're keeping Beerus stronger than Goku still. It gives his character purpose, besides It's just more interesting than the opposite "Saiyans are the best", "Goku is the strongest" scenario.

Imma have to disagree because I think Beerus's could serve more than just a goal post. It would be interesting to see him actually worry about villains because they're a threat to him and U7 also makes the fighting protag cast bigger than "Goku and Vegeta." Besides, if this were to happen to Beerus. the "Saiyans are the best" statement wouldn't exactly be true if they're still weaker than the Angels and Zeno.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

It may not be a retcon but it seems like they're doing this to still keep Beerus stronger than Goku and that's disappointing. While I liked the initial retcon of changing the strict "6-10-15" scale so that Goku has a goal that lasts a few arcs (surpassing Beerus), I think they have been dragging this out ever since after ToP.

I'm glad they're keeping Beerus stronger than Goku still. It gives his character purpose, besides It's just more interesting than the opposite "Saiyans are the best", "Goku is the strongest" scenario.

Imma have to disagree because I think Beerus's could serve more than just a goal post. It would be interesting to see him actually worry about villains because they're a threat to him and U7 also makes the fighting protag cast bigger than "Goku and Vegeta." Besides, if this were to happen to Beerus. the "Saiyans are the best" statement wouldn't exactly be true if they're still weaker than the Angels and Zeno.

Goku becoming stronger than Beerus literally has nothing to do with including more fighting protagonist in the cast, thats an incredibly odd and weak counter argument. They'd just need to include villains that the others could fight and defeat, while Goku and others are to busy fighting the main villain of the arc to involve themselves in fighting the "lesser" villains.
I see no reason for Goku or Vegeta to be strong enough to overpower the GoDs, especially Beerus.
But that's just my opinion. It's completely subjective, so on that we could just agree to disagree.

[Helios518]

I'm glad they're keeping Beerus stronger than Goku still. It gives his character purpose, besides It's just more interesting than the opposite "Saiyans are the best", "Goku is the strongest" scenario.

Imma have to disagree because I think Beerus's could serve more than just a goal post. It would be interesting to see him actually worry about villains because they're a threat to him and U7 also makes the fighting protag cast bigger than "Goku and Vegeta." Besides, if this were to happen to Beerus. the "Saiyans are the best" statement wouldn't exactly be true if they're still weaker than the Angels and Zeno.

1) Goku becoming stronger than Beerus literally has nothing to do with including more fighting protagonist in the cast, thats an incredibly odd and weak counter argument. 2) They'd just need to include villains that the others could fight and defeat, while Goku and others are to busy fighting the main villain of the arc to involve themselves in fighting the "lesser" villains.
3) I see no reason for Goku or Vegeta to be strong enough to overpower the GoDs, especially Beerus.
4) But that's just my opinion. It's completely subjective, so on that we could just agree to disagree.

1) That's not a counter, if it was, saying it's an "odd and weak" counter is not a counter in of itself. The reason why I mention that is because it's just an added benefit to Goku being around if not stronger than Beerus. Also, do you think if Goku around Beerus's strength and villains arrived on that level, Beerus would be sitting around? It doesn't help either that Beerus being stronger removes nearly any tension from the arc unless they do the trope of writing to be conveniently absent but they use that every arc.


2) Except that doesn't really matter much because even if the "lesser" villains won against the "lesser" protags, Goku and Vegeta would most likely be able to pop-up and insta-win. Realistically, everything rides on Goku and Vegeta in most arcs of DBS.


3) You're not really saying anything here. The only reason power-creep exists is so it can serve the story. Otherwise, I can just say "I see no reason for Goku or Vegeta to be strong enough to overpower Freeza aka the emperor of the universe." and that would be as viable of a point as what you said.

Regardless, a goal is pointless if it can't ever be achieved. Like there's zero reason in Toriyama setting the goal for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus if they won't surpass him eventually.

4) Agreed.

[PowerLevel Science]

HA counterpart is not UI!!

Is the "creation aura" (maybe called CA?) but nothing is said yet.

[Ilikepictures-meh]

Imma have to disagree because I think Beerus's could serve more than just a goal post. It would be interesting to see him actually worry about villains because they're a threat to him and U7 also makes the fighting protag cast bigger than "Goku and Vegeta." Besides, if this were to happen to Beerus. the "Saiyans are the best" statement wouldn't exactly be true if they're still weaker than the Angels and Zeno.

1) Goku becoming stronger than Beerus literally has nothing to do with including more fighting protagonist in the cast, thats an incredibly odd and weak counter argument. 2) They'd just need to include villains that the others could fight and defeat, while Goku and others are to busy fighting the main villain of the arc to involve themselves in fighting the "lesser" villains.
3) I see no reason for Goku or Vegeta to be strong enough to overpower the GoDs, especially Beerus.
4) But that's just my opinion. It's completely subjective, so on that we could just agree to disagree.

1) That's not a counter, if it was, saying it's an "odd and weak" counter is not a counter in of itself. The reason why I mention that is because it's just an added benefit to Goku being around if not stronger than Beerus. Also, do you think if Goku around Beerus's strength and villains arrived on that level, Beerus would be sitting around? It doesn't help either that Beerus being stronger removes nearly any tension from the arc unless they do the trope of writing to be conveniently absent but they use that every arc.


2) Except that doesn't really matter much because even if the "lesser" villains won against the "lesser" protags, Goku and Vegeta would most likely be able to pop-up and insta-win. Realistically, everything rides on Goku and Vegeta in most arcs of DBS.


3) You're not really saying anything here. The only reason power-creep exists is so it can serve the story. Otherwise, I can just say "I see no reason for Goku or Vegeta to be strong enough to overpower Freeza aka the emperor of the universe." and that would be as viable of a point as what you said.

Regardless, a goal is pointless if it can't ever be achieved. Like there's zero reason in Toriyama setting the goal for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus if they won't surpass him eventually.

4) Agreed.

You stated you wanted Goku to be stronger than Beerus, not be around the same level, theirs a difference. Your tension argument makes little sense since Beerus hardly cares about Earth and the dragon balls basically fixes everything, removing tension anyway. Also everything was riding on Goku since way before DBS, so that's an irrelevant point. Considering he's the main character and all, that's generally how stories works. Doesn't mean he should be the only character in the cast that fights or defends from future stories enemies, thats ridiculous.

[Helios518]

1) Goku becoming stronger than Beerus literally has nothing to do with including more fighting protagonist in the cast, thats an incredibly odd and weak counter argument. 2) They'd just need to include villains that the others could fight and defeat, while Goku and others are to busy fighting the main villain of the arc to involve themselves in fighting the "lesser" villains.
3) I see no reason for Goku or Vegeta to be strong enough to overpower the GoDs, especially Beerus.
4) But that's just my opinion. It's completely subjective, so on that we could just agree to disagree.

1) That's not a counter, if it was, saying it's an "odd and weak" counter is not a counter in of itself. The reason why I mention that is because it's just an added benefit to Goku being around if not stronger than Beerus. Also, do you think if Goku around Beerus's strength and villains arrived on that level, Beerus would be sitting around? It doesn't help either that Beerus being stronger removes nearly any tension from the arc unless they do the trope of writing to be conveniently absent but they use that every arc.


2) Except that doesn't really matter much because even if the "lesser" villains won against the "lesser" protags, Goku and Vegeta would most likely be able to pop-up and insta-win. Realistically, everything rides on Goku and Vegeta in most arcs of DBS.


3) You're not really saying anything here. The only reason power-creep exists is so it can serve the story. Otherwise, I can just say "I see no reason for Goku or Vegeta to be strong enough to overpower Freeza aka the emperor of the universe." and that would be as viable of a point as what you said.

Regardless, a goal is pointless if it can't ever be achieved. Like there's zero reason in Toriyama setting the goal for Goku and Vegeta to surpass Beerus if they won't surpass him eventually.

4) Agreed.

1) You stated you wanted Goku to be stronger than Beerus, not be around the same level, theirs a difference. 2) Your tension argument makes little sense since Beerus hardly cares about Earth and the dragon balls basically fixes everything, removing tension anyway. 3) Also everything was riding on Goku since way before DBS, so that's an irrelevant point. Considering he's the main character and all, that's generally how stories works. 4) Doesn't mean he should be the only character in the cast that fights or defends from future stories enemies, thats ridiculous.

1) That's not mutually exclusive. Goku could be just strong enough that he's stronger than Beerus but Beerus can still put up a fight hence around. "Around the same" isn't literally "exactly the same"

2) You can make a point that Beerus hardly cares about Earth, sure, but he definitely cares about the universe (at least, as much you would for your job) and Beerus being way stronger than the "Imma destroy the universe" villain, once again removes any tension. Also, the Dragon Balls can't fix everything unless they're the Super DBs and good luck to the cast trying to get those.

3) Bad writing back then is still bad writing now and just because bad writing has been done, doesn't mean they have to continue it. Having only one or two protags (when you have numerous amounts of them) being the only real deciding factor in nearly every conflict is a waste.

4) I'm not sure you read what I put now because I'm debating against this exact thing.

[Thani]

I mean, Jiren is already a being that can overpower Gods of Destruction, and Goku pretty much surpassed him by now. Goku's there already, thanks to UI.

[Helios518]

I mean, Jiren is already a being that can overpower Gods of Destruction, and Goku pretty much surpassed him by now. Goku's there already, thanks to UI.

Yeah, that's what most would think but the implication of the new chapter is that Vegeta may get a GoD technique that will help him rival UI Goku. Of course, cause Vegeta just learned the tech, he's likely way less proficient in it than Beerus is (similar to Goku's UI being worse than even Merus's UI). Therefore a half-baked GoD tech Vegeta (that rivals UI Goku) is still weaker than Beerus who's way more proficient in that tech and has partial UI.

Obviously, this is just guess-work but it definitely seems like the direction they're taking. Hopefully, I'm wrong though.

[Thani]

Right? It's like, if they're going to go through that route, why make Jiren be on the level of a GoD at all? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Right? It's like, if they're going to go through that route, why make Jiren be on the level of a GoD at all? Doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

Tbh, in the manga Toppo claims that Jiren is superior to Belmond specifically in terms of battle power.
Obviously the GoD technique had not been thought of at that moment, but the fact that emphasis was placed on the strength factor already implied that other factors in a real battle between the two could also be important. But I agree that the whole situation is confusing and Beerus' place in relation to UI Goku and other GoD tiers has never been made 100% clear