Ultra Instinct doesn’t come WITH a powerup...

[GodVegetto91]

Ultra Instinct IS the powerup!

The more your body moves on its own, the more accurate and precise all of its moves become... The harder it hits = the more powerful it becomes!

I’m making this topic in response to the many fans who have been saying that (it massively increases your power level BESIDES the speed and power advantage coming from UI..)

No folks.. It’s the same thing!

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

Ultra Instinct IS the powerup!

The more your body moves on its own, the more accurate and precise all of its moves become... The harder it hits = the more powerful it becomes!

I’m making this topic in response to the many fans who have been saying that (it massively increases your power level BESIDES the speed and power advantage coming from UI..)

No folks.. It’s the same thing!

Please, could you explain it better somehow?

I think I am not understanding it at all...

[GodVegetto91]

Ultra Instinct IS the powerup!

The more your body moves on its own, the more accurate and precise all of its moves become... The harder it hits = the more powerful it becomes!

I’m making this topic in response to the many fans who have been saying that (it massively increases your power level BESIDES the speed and power advantage coming from UI..)

No folks.. It’s the same thing!

Please, could you explain it better somehow?

I think I am not understanding it at all...

The power of Ultra Instinct Goku is simply the result of his body moving on its own, on the level that it does. There’s not a magical power increase coming along WITH it. I just don’t know how I can explain it any better here..

The more Goku’s body acts on its own, the harder his strikes and attacks are going to be. All of UI Goku’s power comes from his ability to move his body on its own.

Occam’s Razor folks!

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

Ultra Instinct IS the powerup!

The more your body moves on its own, the more accurate and precise all of its moves become... The harder it hits = the more powerful it becomes!

I’m making this topic in response to the many fans who have been saying that (it massively increases your power level BESIDES the speed and power advantage coming from UI..)

No folks.. It’s the same thing!

Please, could you explain it better somehow?

I think I am not understanding it at all...

The power of Ultra Instinct Goku is simply the result of his body moving on its own, on the level that it does. There’s not a magical power increase coming along WITH it. I just don’t know how I can explain it any better here..

The more Goku’s body acts on its own, the harder his strikes and attacks are going to be. All of UI Goku’s power comes from his ability to move his body on its own.

Occam’s Razor folks!

Ok, think I get it now!

So it is basically a state?

And that state has various levels on it?

Makes sense my friend.

[GodVegetto91]

Please, could you explain it better somehow?

I think I am not understanding it at all...

The power of Ultra Instinct Goku is simply the result of his body moving on its own, on the level that it does. There’s not a magical power increase coming along WITH it. I just don’t know how I can explain it any better here..

The more Goku’s body acts on its own, the harder his strikes and attacks are going to be. All of UI Goku’s power comes from his ability to move his body on its own.

Occam’s Razor folks!

Ok, think I get it now!

So it is basically a state?

And that state has various levels on it?

Makes sense my friend.

Exactly pal

[Gogeta SSJ Blue]

The power of Ultra Instinct Goku is simply the result of his body moving on its own, on the level that it does. There’s not a magical power increase coming along WITH it. I just don’t know how I can explain it any better here..

The more Goku’s body acts on its own, the harder his strikes and attacks are going to be. All of UI Goku’s power comes from his ability to move his body on its own.

Occam’s Razor folks!

Ok, think I get it now!

So it is basically a state?

And that state has various levels on it?

Makes sense my friend.

Exactly pal

And it needs to be evolved too?

It is an excellent perspective to understanding it!

[Ziegander]

I think what you mean to say is, Ultra Instinct does not, itself, directly increase the Power Level of the user. It does nothing to amplify the actual Ki, whether that be dormant Ki, active Ki, or whatever. There is no multiplicative effect like any of the Super Saiyan states, which makes me wonder what "amount of Ki" Ultra Instinct is operating off of.

What Ultra Instinct does do, then, is simultaneously increases the precision of the user's attacks, allows the user's most (physically?) powerful attacks to be launched more often (if not all the time), and decreases the ability of the opponent to defend themselves against the user's strongest attacks.

Logically, you would expect that, considering there are no Super Saiyan transformations happening that a user of Ultra Instinct is then only operating from their "base" battle power, which is to say neither Super Saiyan nor Kaio Ken can be used to augment the strength of their attacks. However, Ultra Instinct being a "godly technique" does seem, to me, to at least, in some way, be tied to the God Ki of its user, meaning that when Goku uses it, he's, as comparable example, leagues and away still more "powerful" than, say, Base Cabba.

Ultra Instinct, operating a base level of Godly strength, goes on to allow the user to avoid nearly any non-God level attack as well as punch the users most powerful attacks through nearly any non-God level enemy's defenses, leaving said enemy as vulnerable to these very powerful attacks as Goku was against Sorbet's blaster. That's what Ultra Instinct does, and the better at it you are, the faster you become, the more attacks you can dodge, and the more openings you are able to unlock from what might otherwise be your opponents very formidable defense.

[GodVegetto91]

I think what you mean to say is, Ultra Instinct does not, itself, directly increase the Power Level of the user. It does nothing to amplify the actual Ki, whether that be dormant Ki, active Ki, or whatever. There is no multiplicative effect like any of the Super Saiyan states, which makes me wonder what "amount of Ki" Ultra Instinct is operating off of.

What Ultra Instinct does do, then, is simultaneously increases the precision of the user's attacks, allows the user's most (physically?) powerful attacks to be launched more often (if not all the time), and decreases the ability of the opponent to defend themselves against the user's strongest attacks.

Logically, you would expect that, considering there are no Super Saiyan transformations happening that a user of Ultra Instinct is then only operating from their "base" battle power, which is to say neither Super Saiyan nor Kaio Ken can be used to augment the strength of their attacks. However, Ultra Instinct being a "godly technique" does seem, to me, to at least, in some way, be tied to the God Ki of its user, meaning that when Goku uses it, he's, as comparable example, leagues and away still more "powerful" than, say, Base Cabba.

Ultra Instinct, operating a base level of Godly strength, goes on to allow the user to avoid nearly any non-God level attack as well as punch the users most powerful attacks through nearly any non-God level enemy's defenses, leaving said enemy as vulnerable to these very powerful attacks as Goku was against Sorbet's blaster. That's what Ultra Instinct does, and the better at it you are, the faster you become, the more attacks you can dodge, and the more openings you are able to unlock from what might otherwise be your opponents very formidable defense.

Interesting that you mentioned this! I’ve actually made a thread JUST about the exact thing you’re talking about here!

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=45512

[Magnificent Ponta]

Basically, I agree - the 'power-up' is more a matter of a more effective wielding of the power one has, rather than a transformation-esque ki power boost. If it were the latter, Moro wouldn't have claimed simply equality with Goku when he got Merus's Ultra Instinct, as he started vastly stronger than Goku in the first place. And the recent talk of degrees of control being connected to the superiority of Whis and The Grand Priest seems to bear this out, too.

A character might also be vastly more powerful in the conventional sense (we get the impression that Merus has more Divine Power than Goku, though it isn't stated that his Ultra Instinct is any more refined, unlike with Whis), and this can still be a relevant consideration in combat - but Ultra Instinct, as such, seems to be a 'parallel track' of strength that isn't strictly to do with expanding the size of one's ki, unlike most of what Dragon Ball has done up to now.

Even the datum that seems to call the OP's position into question - Uub's massive amount of Divine Power restoring Goku's Ultra Instinct - doesn't really do so, as Goku seems to use most of that power to hold Moro in place with fancy tricks using ki that are well beyond the kind of showing that we've seen from Ultra Instinct so far, rather than all (or even necessarily much) of that Divine Power being needed simply to spark Ultra Instinct. The main reason the story bothers to show that much power is to simply show us how powerful Uub is in the most intuitively obvious way possible, even compared to the new power scale Dragon Ball Super works on - this came directly off the back of showing us that a mere aggregation of large amounts of ki isn't the answer, but rather the Divine character of that ki.

[Cipher]

I have to basically ascribe to what the OP and Magnificent Ponta advocate--that Ultra Instinct is not an increase in the user's underlying power, or amount of ki, as previous new forms have been, but rather the ideal application of movement and ki at the user's current level. With those ideal movements comes a substantial practical increase in both offensive power and defense.

The Turtle Hermit hints at the principles during the Tournament of Power--surviving into the final phases of the tournament not by being stronger than his opponents, but by out-maneuvering them. It's also a thematic cornerstone of the arc that Goku's thinking is redirected from the raw power increases of the past into improving emotional control and movement (before being redirected again into the "true strength" that is lateral thinking and teamwork).

The catch is that it seems to take a great amount of power to trigger and maintain--but if you had to call it one or the other between an increase in power and a better application of power, there's far more to hint toward the latter.

To mechanicalize its description a bit more and get at it in standard video-game RPG terms: If the traditional transformation in DB is a multiplication of raw stats, Ultra Instinct keeps the character's stats consistent, but increases dodge rates to 99 percent, makes every move a crit, and makes better decisions for the player. The result is a practical increase in power even without an increase in stats. Of course, similarly to how UI can likely be out-stronged in DB via conventional means, in that comparison, the benefits could also simply be out-stated as well, given an opponent with enough HP, enough defense, enough power.

(To continue the video-game metaphor, you could look at what Goku is doing when he starts to display the SSB globules as UI Sign runs out against Moro as increasing his base stats while his crit rate goes down--power in terms of raw numbers going up, but losing out on a practical benefit that far outweighed them.

...And I guess Sign compared to UI would be, like ... your crit and dodge rates only go up to 50 percent instead of 99 percent or whatever, you lose health every turn, and it only lasts for five turns.)

[Helios518]

The descriptions given for UI make sense with this but what's actually displayed in the series is different.

First is when UI Omen first showed up, it rose Goku's energy so that it managed to shake the World of the Void which only Geran managed to do before. You can say whatever about the logistic of "shaking nothing" but it's clear that the show and its writers were intending "shaking WoV" to be one way to display Geran and UIO Goku's immense power.

Second is when Goku outright take attacks better like when SSBKKx20 Goku would get devastated by suppressed Geran' but a UI Goku confidently took attacks from a full-power Geran. If you're going with the "UI lets the Goku wield his existing power better so he can time when to harden his muscles" then that only makes sense if you also somehow believe that Goku (and nearly everybody else) has ki control and timing so is so horrid that he musters less than 1% of his existing power. Which should be self-explanatory on how ridiculous that is and no one would think that if we're using Occam's Razor.

[GodVegetto91]

My theory is that the actual “amount of ki”, “strength of the ki”, “numerical power level on a scouter, or kili meter” is the same as that of his Base Form.

Now, before you attack me, please hear me out and let me explain.

First of all, NO ONE is denying that the “striking power” of Ultra Instinct is vastly superior to SSJ Blue (and SSJ1 duh), No one is denying that Ultra Instinct punches and kicks harder and faster, and that all of his moves are way faster. No one.

What I’m arguing, is that that if you were to have SSJ1 Goku, Perfected SSJ Blue Goku, and perfected Ultra Instinct Goku standing next to eachother, and you were standing in front of them with a scouter, or ki meter, then they would all give the exact same numerical result, the exact same powerlevel. ”AMOUNT of Ki!”

Since they are ultimately the same form (or definitely SSJ1 and SSJ Blue are) Ultra Instinct could be compared to Base, which would actually make him appear “weaker” than the other two (who would’ve thought!?)

Because “SSJ Blue” really is just “SSJ1”, which has a specific power level to it, so it’s really SSJ1 who’s KI.. Is controlled to such a divine level, that there is so little ki leakage, that it can actually “use” all that power for battle! That’s why it’s so much “stronger” in battle than the regular SSJ1. So basically in this theory, “SSJ Blue...” or rather “Perfected SSJ Blue” is the ultimate potential of SSJ1! It’s the absolute highest actualization of the SSJ1 Power!

This means that the “multiplier” or “ki amount/number” would be lower than SSJ2 and SSJ3, but the actual “fighting power” (in battle) much higher!

And I think this is what Toriyama meant in his interview when he said that SSJ was Goku’s ultimate form to use, and will turn out much better than SSJ2 and SSJ3!

He was secretly talking about SSJ Blue!

But we didn’t know it yet!

Now as for Ultra Instinct, this might be a bit trickier. (Since it’s Goku’s “Base” form, rather than a SSJ state) But it can work! Because unlike SSB (which only has perfect ki control to make him stronger in battle), UI also has “mastery of self movement” ON TOP of perfect ki control (but then in Base!)

Mastery of Self Movement allows the user to punch, kick, strike and move WAAAAAYYYYYY faster than without! Which ofcourse also means much more powerful attacks! (Since speed is strength). Don’t believe me? Well lets look at a car that hits something with 240 miles per hour, and than lets look at another that hits something with only 30 miles an hour. And see which one hits harder and “does more damage”.

I think you get the point...

So my theory is that perfected Ultra Instinct Goku is really just “Base” Goku (with his “Base powerlevel”), controlling his “base ki level/power level” to a divine level (i.e. the full potential/actualization of the base power!) kindof like an “Ultimate State” but then with God Ki, and THEN, (on top of it) another “fighting power” increase, of the mastery of self movement ability!

It’s like, perfected Ultra Instinct Goku is BASE Goku’s ultimate potential/actualization!

While perfected SSJ Blue is SSJ1 Goku’s full potential/actualization! (But it’s still weaker than UI, because mastery of self movement has a much bigger effect in your “battle performance and power” then the 50 times multiplier of SSJ does!)

Get it?

So in this way, (purely according to scouters and ki meters), SSJ3 > SSJ2 > Perfected SSJ Blue Goku > Ultra Instinct Goku.

It’s pure genius!

Again, keep in mind that “battle performance” or “fighting strength” are wildly different things from the “amount of ki” a being possesses!

This is also why Goku is always seen tapping into Ultra Instinct from his Base Form!

This is also why UI has been stated by Merus to be the “opposite” way of doing things than the standard Super Saiyan transformation (which focuses on Rage and pure “power”) hence why it gets a 50x power increase. The “amount of ki” rises with it, so a scouter would say that the power level has gone up.

But with UI, the scouter would simply continue detecting the same power level of Base Goku! Yet Goku’s “striking power” is almost infinitely greater than SSJ Goku’s striking power!

It’s totally genius!

So basically what I’m saying is that “MUI” or “perfected Ultra Instinct” is the Base Form’s “TRUE power”. But it is locked for nearly everyone, because they don’t know the ways to get there so they use cheap shortcuts, such as SSJ1 and beyond to get more battle performance (“power”).

UI is thus the true version of Gohan’s “Ultimate State”.

Also keep in mind that it’s about actually being able to “USE” the Base state’s full potential.

The amount of ki that the Base “body” already possesses remains the same.

It’s Gohan’s “Ultimate state” done right!

[GodVegetto91]

The god forms (SSG, SSB and UI) are all about ki manipulation. That is, you take (what is already there) i.e, the amount of ki that your body already possesses (your current max powerlevel hidden deep inside your body), and you manipulate it in just the right way to get these forms and “actual fighting power”.

Whilst with SSJ1, 2, and 3, is literally an increase in the amount of energy that your body possesses.

So the “power level” (on a scouter) would go up.

But UI is different, you’re ”using” the exact same energy that your body already possesses (that was previously unavailable to you) for battle.

By having very low ki leakage (as in SSJ Blue), the theory goes that “ki/aura leaking” can be seen as “losing power” hence why normal Super Saiyan forms are a lot weaker in battle. But with SSB, there is so little ki leakage (“power loss”!), that you can actually USE that power (which in reality is far greater than we’ve imagined) for battle.

UI has something else in conjunction to it, it gives your body the ability to act and decide on its own. Hence no time wasted on the traveling from the signals of your brain to your muscles, hence more speed, hence more power!

[Tai Lung]

really the UI is a "PU" BUT .. it is not only that since it requires user conditions and it is not achieved only by training

[Gogeta_Blue]

If UI doesn't amplify Goku's ki then how does one explain this? He didn't physically strike Moro; he sent him flying back with nothing but his ki.

Now replace Omen with Blue in that situation (we saw Moro casually block a punch from Blue Goku a couple chapters earlier). Does the same thing happen?

[Magnificent Ponta]

Now replace Omen with Blue in that situation (we saw Moro casually block a punch from Blue Goku a couple chapters earlier). Does the same thing happen?

Sure. Why not? It's basically just a kiai - we've had significantly weaker fighters blow away stronger fighters with their ki before.

[Gogeta_Blue]

Now replace Omen with Blue in that situation (we saw Moro casually block a punch from Blue Goku a couple chapters earlier). Does the same thing happen?

Sure. Why not? It's basically just a kiai - we've had significantly weaker fighters blow away stronger fighters with their ki before.

This wasn't a matter of the stronger fighter being caught off guard. They were pushing against each other, gritting their teeth with their ki's colliding Gohan vs Cell style, and Goku blew him away. It was a struggle of nothing more than raw power and Goku got the better of him.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Now replace Omen with Blue in that situation (we saw Moro casually block a punch from Blue Goku a couple chapters earlier). Does the same thing happen?

Sure. Why not? It's basically just a kiai - we've had significantly weaker fighters blow away stronger fighters with their ki before.

This wasn't a matter of the stronger fighter being caught off guard. They were pushing against each other, gritting their teeth with their ki's colliding Gohan vs Cell style, and Goku blew him away. It was a struggle of nothing more than raw power and Goku got the better of him.

To follow that logic to its end point, you'd have to assert Omen Goku is stronger than Moro, which is decisively undercut by the fact he can't even really harm him when he gives his best shot, and Moro says Goku's much weaker than he feared he might be.

I'm satisfied that it's a kiai doing what a kiai do. It's fine if you're not, but I don't see anything concrete to speak against it.

[jd55513]

Is Ultra Instinct just a State of Mind, that doesn’t necessarily increase power like a traditional transformation?

Ultra Instinct is based on a concept called "Mushin no Shen" It's also based on a Zen Buddhist Kenjutsu technique by a legendary swordsmen, named Miyamoto Musashi, he founded a Zen Buddhist school of thought, for kenjutsu technique called niten'ichi (二天一, "two heavens as one") or nitōichi (二刀一, "two swords as one") or 'Niten Ichi-ryū. In both cases, it's a form of meditation and spiritual enlightment, from Eastern Philosophy.
It actually fits with Son Goku, since he is the character archetype of Son Wukong from Journey to the West.
Sun Wukong is a being who is a self described "pilgrim" a term that refers to foreigners to methods and martial arts. His character also is described as having a "monkey mind" which can mean emptyness.
Emptyness is the first step in Buddhist enlightment and meditation. The Japanese call it "Satari"

As for the mechanics of Ultra Instinct. Again, it's not some powerup. It doesn't magically increase the users mortal ki or god ki. It just allows for the user to use the full capacity of their power and movement. From a Biology perspective, it overides the "libet effect", which is the study and research done by Benjimin Libet. It was a study on free will and conscious thought. The study suggest their is a lag associated with neurons and the action of locomotion in our bodies. Anyways the removal of this effect translates the persons punches and kicks to levels that can rival other fighters that may have larger levels of ki and power(i.e Jiren and all the other gods).
It doesn't automatically grant victory.
It's just a gateway to new fighting styles and techniques.

Notice the portrayal of ultra instinct in the manga. Goku stood no chance with the Blue Kaioken x20 and even in omen, he stood no chance in actually doing damage other than dodging. When he entered the complete stage of UI, he was able to maximize the effectiveness of his attack(what I mean is that he is able to move his power to each of his arms and legs better than Jiren, regardless of Jiren being superior in every other regard.) That matters in a fight.
Think of Bruce Lee. A small guy and very lean and slim. However for lack of bulky muscle, which would slows him down, he makes up for with his precision and speed. The key being speed.
That is the principal that Ultra Instinct is employing.
Jiren may be stronger but Goku is able to use speed to a much greater effect than Jiren.
Speed is huge in Physics, it plays a role in the conservation of linear momentum.


As for the powerup or increase in Ki. It seems rather contridictory in the anime and manga portrayal. I like the manga portrayal more. I dont think it magically raises his mortal or god ki reservoirs to new heights. It exploits physics and thermodynamics
In the case of Moro, both when he obtained the powers of Merus and after becoming the Earth, His body was overflowing with his ungodly amount of mortal ki, he accumulated , because hes basically Galactus. That large stockpile plus the copied powers(god ki and UI) was too much for his normal body and so he fused with the Earth. He didn't get stronger, he became a ticking time bomb
What I'm trying to sat is that having the potential(his pool of energy he acuminated from Merus) doesn't translate to having the power to wield it properly.

I'm thinking of power in the scientific way. Moro has more energy due to his special magic and siphoning abilities. He got youthful and stronger because he could effectively use it. He was still himself. After copying a angels ability he got stronger but was a novice at using UI. He could not match goku's power. After he lost control of his body he started losing control of his mind. He was not in control of effectively employing his "potential" He had more energy, but that doesn't mean he was stronger though.
Look at the case of Hit in the Super Manga, for the point of how a technique can look and be "stronger" or more "powerful" than the physical stats of the opponents. Hit was physically weaker than Goku and Vegeta. However his time skip exploited physics to allow the force of his attack to do more damage due to the time delay, again, Conservation of linear momentum
Essentially Because of physics, Goku was able to better send energy and as a consequence force, to his body with no loss as heat or other wasted byproducts
The strength of UI is in speed and precision. In the case of Jiren, he is not physically stronger than Jiren, but is able to use physics to a greater effect, which results in greater parry's and strikes because of this method
It's not that UI gets stronger, it only uses the normal stats of the user. Goku isn't magically stronger. You can beat people with blows and strikes that are faster than someone who is physically stronger than them.

UI is a technique that allows for "efficiency" it overides the libet effect and so you have full transmission of energy to each part of your hands and legs as you fight, without a loss of momentum and other byproducts such as heat.
Think of Bruce lee again, he may not be heavyweight class fighter, he is lean and small. However his speed and precision is greater than most fighters that may be more massive and have more muscle

As for the deference between Omen and UI. he gets more effective, because he is in the complete state, which translate to more effective blows and parries, that doesn't mean he is automatically physically stronger than his foes and as a result his attack appear "Harder" because of the effectiveness of his transmission of force!

I think Goku is still physically weaker than Moro, because Moro has more of a ki reservoir than Goku does. UI exploits physics to allow him to supercede the physical capabilities of Moro and himself

I explained that Goku has two reservoirs of energy his mortal ki, and his god ki. Moro has more ki than Goku once he reaches his youthful state, than after his fusion state, he is far stronger.
Goku was still physically weaker, even in Omen, he could not beat youthful Moro.
When he was in UI. He was able to use his power more effectively. So his blows and parries had superceded their normal capabilities. He was in terms of energy, still physically weaker than Moro. But because of the libet effect being null. The energy and force of Goku was 100% more efficient.

In summary, the anime and manga portrayal have left confusion as to the notion of whether UI is a transformation, that grants a powerup or a state of mind, that manifest itself as a transformation, for stylistic representation.
As for mechanics, its is rooted in philosophy and based on some physics of which involves speed being the largest contributing factor in attacks, rather than a increase in power it seems.
I could be wrong though, still, I hope this was worth a read!