In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:17 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:04 pm Because a lot of American Dragon Ball fans basically treat the series like some mix of pro wrestling and card games, and are so obsessed with their stupid power level flow charts and formulas that they lack any creative imagination and are more interested in the fights than what progresses the story.

Especially since, in real time, the original series was rife with the same type of logic "problems" that they whine about now. Like from the moment we find out Frieza's power level is 530,000, and is second form is 1 million, everything gets pretty out of whack. Characters are always gonna be as strong as the story needs them to be at a given moment; that's how it's always been.

Dragon Ball's not a "fighting series," it's a series about people who fight.
In all honesty... that's all Dragon Ball really is at the end of the day. It's a spectacle, it's entertaining, but it's hammy and practically wrestling tier. Once the Budokai's start happening it really solidifies.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Kinokima » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:58 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:04 pm Because a lot of American Dragon Ball fans basically treat the series like some mix of pro wrestling and card games, and are so obsessed with their stupid power level flow charts and formulas that they lack any creative imagination and are more interested in the fights than what progresses the story.

Especially since, in real time, the original series was rife with the same type of logic "problems" that they whine about now. Like from the moment we find out Frieza's power level is 530,000, and is second form is 1 million, everything gets pretty out of whack. Characters are always gonna be as strong as the story needs them to be at a given moment; that's how it's always been.

Dragon Ball's not a "fighting series," it's a series about people who fight.
I 100% agree with this. I am not saying people can never be interested in power levels to understand the logic behind the world of Dragon Ball but ppl really take it too far
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:17 am In all honesty... that's all Dragon Ball really is at the end of the day. It's a spectacle, it's entertaining, but it's hammy and practically wrestling tier. Once the Budokai's start happening it really solidifies.

No it isn’t. I am not saying DB is the most complex story ever but it does have a story with plot and characterization and Themes. It’s not just about who beats who.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Jinto » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:15 am

I'd like to clarify that power scaling is not giving number to a character's power but to determine the "picking-order" in a serie, it's an important part of DB and most shonen in general focused on fighting.
Even shonen where strategy is prevalent MUST use some form power scaling.

People tend to present power scaling as a bad thing when it's an aspect of the suspension of disbelief.
This come from the fact that CONFLICT AND TENSION in a story creates THE INTEREST (at least for Shonen). You can easily deduce from there the need to put logical limit for power so that the story avoid being dull, said limit can be surpassed by training, mac guffin or something else from the character and this give the story a sense of progression
Why ?
Because would you like it if the chief of carrot gang in DB defeat Whis by transforming him into a carrot ? That is power scaling.
It's not limited to energy. Skill, build, knowledge also comes into play.
Without power scaling in a battle shonen, you cannot make a threat into a story.

If you want a story without scaling then look no further than Fairy tail.

Discussion about power scaling are problematic because power scaling is about the logic of a power system in a fictionnal world, so it's subjective to a certain degree.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:58 pm

Kinokima wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:58 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:04 pm Because a lot of American Dragon Ball fans basically treat the series like some mix of pro wrestling and card games, and are so obsessed with their stupid power level flow charts and formulas that they lack any creative imagination and are more interested in the fights than what progresses the story.

Especially since, in real time, the original series was rife with the same type of logic "problems" that they whine about now. Like from the moment we find out Frieza's power level is 530,000, and is second form is 1 million, everything gets pretty out of whack. Characters are always gonna be as strong as the story needs them to be at a given moment; that's how it's always been.

Dragon Ball's not a "fighting series," it's a series about people who fight.
I 100% agree with this. I am not saying people can never be interested in power levels to understand the logic behind the world of Dragon Ball but ppl really take it too far
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:17 am In all honesty... that's all Dragon Ball really is at the end of the day. It's a spectacle, it's entertaining, but it's hammy and practically wrestling tier. Once the Budokai's start happening it really solidifies.

No it isn’t. I am not saying DB is the most complex story ever but it does have a story with plot and characterization and Themes. It’s not just about who beats who.
And so does pro wrestling, with DB and pro wrestling the focus at the end of the day is the fights. Whatever major story elements there are they all lead to a conclusion of a fight.

Dragon Ball as a series is essentially WWE with laser beams and animation.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by jjgp1112 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:10 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:58 pm
Kinokima wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:58 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:04 pm Because a lot of American Dragon Ball fans basically treat the series like some mix of pro wrestling and card games, and are so obsessed with their stupid power level flow charts and formulas that they lack any creative imagination and are more interested in the fights than what progresses the story.

Especially since, in real time, the original series was rife with the same type of logic "problems" that they whine about now. Like from the moment we find out Frieza's power level is 530,000, and is second form is 1 million, everything gets pretty out of whack. Characters are always gonna be as strong as the story needs them to be at a given moment; that's how it's always been.

Dragon Ball's not a "fighting series," it's a series about people who fight.
I 100% agree with this. I am not saying people can never be interested in power levels to understand the logic behind the world of Dragon Ball but ppl really take it too far
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:17 am In all honesty... that's all Dragon Ball really is at the end of the day. It's a spectacle, it's entertaining, but it's hammy and practically wrestling tier. Once the Budokai's start happening it really solidifies.

No it isn’t. I am not saying DB is the most complex story ever but it does have a story with plot and characterization and Themes. It’s not just about who beats who.
And so does pro wrestling, with DB and pro wrestling the focus at the end of the day is the fights. Whatever major story elements there are they all lead to a conclusion of a fight.

Dragon Ball as a series is essentially WWE with laser beams and animation.
As someone who obsessively watches both mediums...not really. I mean, don't get me wrong, the chaotic, written by the seat of its pants nature of Dragon Ball's storytelling does resemble wrestling sometimes - but it's pretty telling that the story arc that's most loaded with the type of stuff that hampers pro wrestling angles, the Buu saga, is also the weakest.

Calling Dragon Ball "WWE with laser beams" severely reduces the substance of the series. With wrestling, the matches exist as much in a vacuum as they do as part of a broad storyline, and most of the weekly shows consist of only vaguely important "fights" as it were because the athletic in-ring product is still the main thing the medium is about - the storylines just give them the personality, character, and stakes.

Wrestling's a theatrical athletic exhibition first and foremost. You can watch a wrestling match without even knowing the story behind it and be enthralled, because that's the center of it all. With Dragon Ball, the storyline is central to everything and defines everything about the fights. Dragon Ball fights are a means to push the story forward. Wrestling storylines are a means to produce a match.

The DBZ movies operate by this same wrestling-first principle, where the scenario is just a slapped together excuse for cool fights, and that's why the best ones have an actual story with effort (The first 3 movies, Movie 8, Movie 13). The other ones have little replay value, with the only standouts (typically Movies 9 and 12) having enough style to overcome the lack of substance - in other words, a great vacuum wrestling match.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Wed Feb 24, 2021 3:40 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:10 pm As someone who obsessively watches both mediums...not really. I mean, don't get me wrong, the chaotic, written by the seat of its pants nature of Dragon Ball's storytelling does resemble wrestling sometimes - but it's pretty telling that the story arc that's most loaded with the type of stuff that hampers pro wrestling angles, the Buu saga, is also the weakest.

Calling Dragon Ball "WWE with laser beams" severely reduces the substance of the series. With wrestling, the matches exist as much in a vacuum as they do as part of a broad storyline, and most of the weekly shows consist of only vaguely important "fights" as it were because the athletic in-ring product is still the main thing the medium is about - the storylines just give them the personality, character, and stakes.

Wrestling's a theatrical athletic exhibition first and foremost. You can watch a wrestling match without even knowing the story behind it and be enthralled, because that's the center of it all. With Dragon Ball, the storyline is central to everything and defines everything about the fights. Dragon Ball fights are a means to push the story forward. Wrestling storylines are a means to produce a match.

The DBZ movies operate by this same wrestling-first principle, where the scenario is just a slapped together excuse for cool fights, and that's why the best ones have an actual story with effort (The first 3 movies, Movie 8, Movie 13). The other ones have little replay value, with the only standouts (typically Movies 9 and 12) having enough style to overcome the lack of substance - in other words, a great vacuum wrestling match.
WWE and DBZ Comparison
I'd argue wrestling stories have more depth long term cause it encompasses real life into it and each character (individual) progresses in some way long term. As for theatrical exhibitions, I don't see Dragon Ball as any different personally. Like as I said before, once the Budokais start happening the show takes a major shift in that direction, especially Z and Super.

I feel like once they start having the tournaments going the rest of the series falls into that. Perhaps the only exception I can think of is Namek arc and Gohan and Krillin's survival with Bulma. But the rest of it really does feel like just Goku and Vegeta prepping for the next exhibition.

I mean I love Dragon Ball as a series far more than I do WWE, but they are quite similar products even if the individual aspects can be vastly different. It's why people compare the prowess of the fighters.

Why the balance of power matters
But even if all of these points were not part of the current discussion here, I think there is a misunderstanding you and two others are making about what I'm saying.

Power balance is just an innate part of the world. Another example is, let's say Goku is hurt with the heart virus. He's clearly more powerful than the Androids but he couldn't win due to that heart virus. It's many attributes and variables like this why people focus on power scaling and believability, even if it's fictional world 'realism'. We want things to make sense within the rules of that world. So like if Krillin just beats up Goku out of nowhere that would really throw things off if there's no explanation for it as most of the story written thus far contradicts that.

People are wanting that fight that is wrapped around that character's story arc and powers to make sense in the confines of what was expressed previously. It's not simply "der herr power only".
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by BWri » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:02 pm

There is some anime "elitism" among a few folks who look down on the fans who passionately debate the numbers and calcs. I believe it is overall a backlash to folks who seem to care about the hard numbers over character development or at the very least the stereotype of those people. It's also a backlash to the whole notion of hard numbers being the sole factor used to determine the outcomes of the story and which characters get interesting developments.

I agree with both camps at different points. Limiting stories to outcomes based on who has the bigger number is a boring way to tell stories and I'm glad that Super loosened that up a bit: Did Toei and Toriyama Shorten the Power Scale to Allow More Competition? viewtopic.php?f=25&t=38272

But I also agree that there should be a level of internal logic that should not be ignored when it comes to power levels and I don't think previous power mechanics should be ignored either unless a new mechanic is introduced that specifically ignores or flips them.

As with most things, a happy medium is needed to produce a good balance. Super seems to be at least trying to do that. As for the fandom, Dragon Ball seems to have one of the most diverse. People like it or hate it for different reasons. And there is a large portion of fans who simply don't give a shit about non-Saiyan characters because they're weak. More than anything, it's probably a backlash against that group of fans.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Kinokima » Wed Feb 24, 2021 4:49 pm

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:58 pm
Kinokima wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:58 am
jjgp1112 wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:04 pm Because a lot of American Dragon Ball fans basically treat the series like some mix of pro wrestling and card games, and are so obsessed with their stupid power level flow charts and formulas that they lack any creative imagination and are more interested in the fights than what progresses the story.

Especially since, in real time, the original series was rife with the same type of logic "problems" that they whine about now. Like from the moment we find out Frieza's power level is 530,000, and is second form is 1 million, everything gets pretty out of whack. Characters are always gonna be as strong as the story needs them to be at a given moment; that's how it's always been.

Dragon Ball's not a "fighting series," it's a series about people who fight.
I 100% agree with this. I am not saying people can never be interested in power levels to understand the logic behind the world of Dragon Ball but ppl really take it too far
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 2:17 am In all honesty... that's all Dragon Ball really is at the end of the day. It's a spectacle, it's entertaining, but it's hammy and practically wrestling tier. Once the Budokai's start happening it really solidifies.

No it isn’t. I am not saying DB is the most complex story ever but it does have a story with plot and characterization and Themes. It’s not just about who beats who.
And so does pro wrestling, with DB and pro wrestling the focus at the end of the day is the fights. Whatever major story elements there are they all lead to a conclusion of a fight.

Dragon Ball as a series is essentially WWE with laser beams and animation.
But I don’t think the focus at the end of the day in DB is just the fights. I realize it’s an action shounen so the fighting is very important. But I feel the characters and themes are way more important than the fights


I mean I know a lot of DB fans disagree with this sentiment and I know many do watch it for the flashy fights but that’s not why I like the series.

I also never could get into wrestling which is why I always found the comparison strange.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by pepd » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:46 pm

I don't see the DB WWE, but considering content like SDBH, fan works and some modern DB, I guess it doesn't really surprises me. I think the aspects Toriyama is particular about (specially with his more limited participation in DBS), as well as the importance of his participation in DB for it to feel like real DB, shows that, while the fighting and powers are a big element of DB, is not defining or the single most important.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Kataphrut » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:18 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:39 am
Kataphrut wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:23 amFunnily enough, back in the Super anime days, i was a big defender of the show's, hm...fast and loose approach to power scaling.
I'm not asking for perfection, as I can accept some things being a bit off, but not to the point where Krillin or 17 are holding their own against Blue Goku.
Those fights were awesome though. I loved the Krillin one especially for the tactics on display and the good-natured spirit of the fight. And they made it pretty clear that Krillin was out of his depth against Bluku as well, so it's not worth getting upset about.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:30 pm

It's probably also because power-scaling debates tend to get heated very fast and devolve into an insult fiesta. There's nothing inherently wrong with debating about 1v1 battles, power-scaling, rankings, and all that stuff, but these kind of debates tend to devolve very fast, as opposed to more neutral kind of debates about a character's motivations or personality.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Yuli Ban » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:50 pm

I haven't been too deeply involved in the fandom, but my takeaway from this debate is more that there isn't much hatred towards power scaling itself— more, that there's recognition that it's horribly fucked because the characters have long since transcended far beyond any "reasonable" standard of power we can use to gauge their strength and comparative standing. And Super fucked with this by having long-since irrelevant and outrageously outclassed warriors stand up to the heavy-hitters in some way. If that wasn't the intention and things like Blue were supposed to be about perfect ki control or that Muten Roshi's pseudo-Ultra Instinct was up against someone who wasn't really trying at all, it was horribly, disgustingly conveyed and Dragon Ball deserves every bit of criticism it gets from a literary standpoint for failing to explain this. You don't get to mess with narrative consistency and not explain yourself. That's not how storytelling works, except for the surreal and absurd (and the tradition of the surreal isn't the same kind of "surreal" of which Dragon Ball qualifies).

You know how Dragon Ball/Z/GT did this? Through the narrative's progression itself. Characters were defeated and became outclassed, hit a wall, or failed to even try at all and we understood going forward "Okay, Yamcha is definitely weaker than Gohan." And so on and so forth. You don't need infodumps or numerical power levels to convey these things. A simple line or two, or even just a well-shot scene, can give you everything you need to know. Super didn't do this because of the numerous writers who were trying to adapt Toriyama's notes. They didn't have a manga to go off of, and even the manga screwed with some things (the aforementioned Roshi bit is a far, far, FAR more egregious break of narrative consistency than any "Caulifla is too strong!" argument but I can think of two reasons why people aren't as up in arms about it).

Power scaling discussion is borked because the series itself treats it loosely. if Toriyama were in a more active role, I'd even go so far as to say this was deliberate, but this is entirely a byproduct of the Post-Super era of the series. We still have a general sense of where characters stand— Son Goku and Vegeta are still at the non-divine top. But how far above the rest they are, we can only speculate. Ostensibly, it was implied Super Saiyan God alone was above Super Saiyan 4 and Super Saiyan Blue was god only knows how far above that, and then you add Kaioken x 20 above it plus Son Goku's continued training. And yet the most obvious maypole— Beerus— has never been confirmed or denied to have been surpassed. Maybe in the manga, but I haven't read it past the early parts of the Moro arc so I won't make any definitive statements there. How strong is Future Trunks in comparison to Gohan or Gotenks? It doesn't matter much for the arc, but at least in Z we had a much clearer idea. In Super, it was fairly muddy.




No, what really gets people's jimmies rustled is power levels. Power levels served something of a purpose in that they gave a numerical value that we could use to compare characters to each other. But that's really the extent of their real-world practical application, and they fell apart spectacularly after their debut arc (on purpose, might I add) since the whole point was to show how this sci-fi space mafia didn't understand ki as much as the exponentially weaker Earthlings. It's a simple theme, nothing worth really reflecting on at all and not all that revelatory because it's a basic "high-tech still misses the spiritual" thing, and yet millions still misunderstood this and unironically ran with power levels well after they were useful. Otherwise once you get the even the Cell arc, the Freeza Force Freezy Pops do little more than make vague discussions of power scaling marginally less vague by saying "Super Saiyan 2 Gohan has a power level of 10 billion freezy pops while Perfect Cell is 5 billion!" We can clearly see Gohan overwhelmingly dominates Cell, so that doesn't really reveal anything other than he's literally twice as strong according to one interpretation. And then you get the multipliers and the obsessing over the numbers that get increasingly ridiculous. 400x multipliers, power levels of 50 billion, fusion multipliers, and so on and so forth.

This is where the toxic discussions really start, as far as I've noticed.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:18 pm

It isn't, but the complaint is that some people take it to an extreme and focus on that aspect over everything else.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by FlpShimizu » Thu Feb 25, 2021 9:15 am

Polyphase Avatron wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:18 pm It isn't, but the complaint is that some people take it to an extreme and focus on that aspect over everything else.
This. Couldn't have said it better and more directly.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Thani » Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:31 pm

The biggest problem, to me, is that idea that the power MUST scale upwards. You can't make a threat that is equal in power to what we had before, but with a different approach that actually makes them more dangerous, no, not in DB. In DB the only way is to increase the number.

Don't get me wrong, the "my number is higher than yours" approach is not bad per se. Beerus and Whis being these godlike figures that no one in Universe 7 can defeat is good because we have a clear hierarchy in place. Majin Buu being an invincible god of evil also made sense, given his resumé. Freeza acting as the initial ceiling as a literal planet destroyer made sense considering he was pretty much blessed from birth with his power, it's something that could even be explored - in fact, he SHOULD have been the only planet buster at that point in DBZ.

But why should Piccolo be an ant compared to Raditz, who is an ant compared to Nappa, who is an ant compared to Vegeta? Why must the "strongest until now" automatically means that the previous threat became a joke? And that only became more and more ridiculous as time went on. The Saiyan saga could have the same amount of stakes even if they were only slightly stronger than one another, but had different abilities that changed the dynamic of the battle. For example, Raditz being the cowardly pragmatic, Nappa the brute with super strength and Vegeta the leader with the powerhouse ki abilities and fancy techniques that can respond to almost everything Goku can throw at him.

Not only that, but because the escalation has to be that massive in order to show that our protagonists are SO strong, it keeps getting more and more difficult to make new threats believable. Even Toriyama admited he had trouble with it.

I don't mind power scaling, but constantly increasing numbers is not necessarily a good thing OR good writing. And in DB it has been both a bad thing and a case of bad writing.

Obs: Honestly, both Hit and Moro were a breath of fresh air to me because they did NOT rely on their numbers being higher. Hit (in the anime) could overwhelm stronger opponents with his Time Skip and Moro used his wits and energy absorption to get pass the "power level" barrier. Even though Hit could be countered by enough speed (Dyspo) or a combination of speed and skill (Jiren and Goku), he could still keep up and remain a threat. Moro, with his constant threat of absorbing energy, kept the heroes on their toes the entire time he acted - but then he, honestly, devolved into a "my numbers are bigger than yours so whatever" when his biggest asset was countered and never bothered to show anything more fancy than that.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:39 am

Thani wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:31 pmThe biggest problem, to me, is that idea that the power MUST scale upwards. You can't make a threat that is equal in power to what we had before, but with a different approach that actually makes them more dangerous, no, not in DB. In DB the only way is to increase the number.
This is why I believe DB as a story can't continue indefinitely, as after awhile things just stop making sense and become laughable, which is what happened (for me) following BOG. Toriyama even said that one of the reasons he ended the manga was because he couldn't find a logical way to make Goku any stronger, which I completely agree with. He did pull it off one more time in BOG, but like I said, it just stopped working afterwards.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by Thani » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:11 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:39 am
Thani wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:31 pmThe biggest problem, to me, is that idea that the power MUST scale upwards. You can't make a threat that is equal in power to what we had before, but with a different approach that actually makes them more dangerous, no, not in DB. In DB the only way is to increase the number.
This is why I believe DB as a story can't continue indefinitely, as after awhile things just stop making sense and become laughable, which is what happened (for me) following BOG. Toriyama even said that one of the reasons he ended the manga was because he couldn't find a logical way to make Goku any stronger, which I completely agree with. He did pull it off one more time in BOG, but like I said, it just stopped working afterwards.
I think it could have the illusion of it working because, for most of Super, everyone else was weaker than Beerus, but I mostly agree with you.

But it has been overall stupid since the Androids Arc - mostly because they were at a playing field where planets were simply collateral damage, but still only the endgame villain actually posed a threat to the planet when fighting.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:06 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:31 pm Not only that, but because the escalation has to be that massive in order to show that our protagonists are SO strong, it keeps getting more and more difficult to make new threats believable. Even Toriyama admited he had trouble with it.
Technically, the maximum power ceiling has already been established in the series with the existence of Zenoh and the Angels. So any threats that arise will never be as impressive as they are anyway, which makes the appearance of stronger villains not so absurd. And honestly maybe Goku and Vegeta will never be able to overcome the angels in the end, and if that happens they will definitely not overcome Zenoh.

And if we think about it, none of the last antagonists came out of nowhere as super strong threats. Zamasu was from another universe (and had to steal the protagonist's body to be a threat), Jiren was also from another universe, Broly only got stronger when facing Goku and Vegeta and Moro was a wizard who had been alive for millions of years.

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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by ChronoTwigger » Mon Mar 01, 2021 8:12 pm

Ok ok, let's solve your issue.
Let's do power scaling.

Goku become a SSJ God out of nowhere and get stronger "we don't know how much", only to be beaten hard.
Just after, it does become SSJ Blue, so stronger "we don't know how much", apparently enough to beat a trained Frieza that, by logic, Goahn should have shotted down too. So we don't know.

Just after, he combine SSBlue with Kaiohken 'x' to defeat a badly implemented time stuff using "the strenght of the power". He get ill by that and so goodbye.

Just after he does fight himself fused to a kaioshin, get beaten hard twice, fuse, and LOSE. So we don't know how much he's strong.

Just after he does defeat the most uncanny feeble opponents ever, until WalrusMan come in and he's totally much stronger. So Goku is OR way much stronger or NOT strong at all. Anyway the Trio de Dangers is never seen fighting someone else so we don't know their absolute strenght.

Well, just after join the ToP and start the UI joke. Omen, Partial, Quarter, "Maybe I'm here", "Oh no it's UI... no wait, let's retcon" UI... only to get beaten. So we don't know how much UI is strong if not "enough to fight this guy some minute".

Just after, come a magical user that forget to be a magical user, bash bash bash and finally you see UI completed. If not only the opponent get UI too, so you don't actually know how much UI is strong. In the end Goku defeat the thing with the power of friendship.

Just after he does some sparring with Whis that, being uber, we don't actually know Goku relative strenght. Well, we don't actually know the absolute strenght of ANYONE at this point.

This is your actual power scaling. You must add to this Vegeta that's is always conveniently Goku-1 level, at ANY moment, to the point of having powers he couldn't have when required.

We can debate about, surely. Was Zamasu stronger than Jiren? Probably. Was Jiren stronger than Moro? probably again. There's ANY DAMNED WAY to have a certain measure of that?
No.
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Re: In a fighting series, why is it problematic to discuss the power-scaling of the characters?

Post by BWri » Sat Mar 06, 2021 10:36 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:06 pm
Thani wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:31 pm Not only that, but because the escalation has to be that massive in order to show that our protagonists are SO strong, it keeps getting more and more difficult to make new threats believable. Even Toriyama admited he had trouble with it.
Technically, the maximum power ceiling has already been established in the series with the existence of Zenoh and the Angels. So any threats that arise will never be as impressive as they are anyway, which makes the appearance of stronger villains not so absurd. And honestly maybe Goku and Vegeta will never be able to overcome the angels in the end, and if that happens they will definitely not overcome Zenoh.
It remains absurd when you consider that even throwaway fighters have to be planet busters to be relevant to the combat scenarios. And when you get to the point where even silly characters such as many of the ToP fighters or even characters whose lives wouldn't naturally lead to them being so powerful, such as Caulifla being a simple gang leader instead of, IDK, some intergalactic conqueror then you wonder how, why, and for what purpose these characters are so strong when naturally they'd be no stronger than DB Roshi, Raditz, or Saiyan arc Nappa or Vegeta. Then it becomes clear that it is strictly for the purpose of streamlining things for the writers.

Don't get me wrong, I can definitely see that they are at least trying with some of the characters to explain their strength. The best they've done with this so far is with Moro's prisoners as their power is just an extension of his power which is power stolen form countless worlds. That's far better than the ToP where you have to wonder how so many characters are as strong or stronger than Namek era Frieza. It would help if the story gave you some indication of their backstories like with the U6 Namekians (anime) or day to day like with the Pride Troopers (anime).

For instance, was Botamo some Majin Buu level threat that Cabba and Frost had to stop? Was Magetta some historic warrior that defended his people from world ending threats? Does Ribrianne and her crew fight eldritch abominations on a daily basis? Are the Trio De Danger galactic space nomads that destroy and pillage wherever they go, is that how they're stronger than an android saga Super Namekian and a Namek saga space tyrant? Every new fighter adds a ton of questions and unless they are simply born strong like Frieza or Buu, we need a hint as to why they can go toe to toe with a cast who've been demigods since Goku fought Piccolo Daimou.
And if we think about it, none of the last antagonists came out of nowhere as super strong threats. Zamasu was from another universe (and had to steal the protagonist's body to be a threat), Jiren was also from another universe, Broly only got stronger when facing Goku and Vegeta and Moro was a wizard who had been alive for millions of years.
Jiren needed a better explanation or at the very least a better presentation than what we got. His powers weren't really all that special. He was just a really strong version of a basic mortal fighter. He didn't have limitless ki, he just had a lot of it. He didn't constantly get stronger, his baseline strength was just absurd. He didn't do anything wild to attain that strength. He just trained really good. His training wasn't really outlined. It's fine that he attained his strength through training, but what makes him so special over someone like Tenshinhan? Tien also trains like a madman but apparently he's still one of the weakest fighters in the ToP. So what makes Jiren special? They never explained that, which is ultimately why Jiren's character is so unappealing for so many and why his strength also seems forced for the plot.

Broly is similarly unsatisfying for me. Don't get me wrong, it's fine as is. I can make Broly make sense all day with headcanon because they've done enough to leave the watcher to fill in the blanks. My problem with this is, it's not enough. Because whenever we make headcanon, Toriyama-san seems to dismiss these notions on a whim or just out of forgetfulness. So it's up to them to provide a conclusive explanation to the mechanics of these fights and powerups. Leaving them vague doesn't work anymore. We need some insight into the details of Saiyan biology and why Broly's body is reacting in the way it is as opposed to other Saiyans we've seen before. Just calling him a demon Saiyan is fine but is his body literally reacting to Goku and Vegeta? Is this the nature of zenkai and the crazy boosts we've seen before? Is god ki also causing this reaction?

Zamasu was perfect. We need more villains like that. Moro made sense too. They explained things just enough with those two to where you can buy into how their powers escalated.
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