I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:09 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:50 am*snip*
These things are certainly simple and obvious, and I can see why one might be disappointed if something more intricate had been hoped for (I have done so myself, on occasion). But I don't know if I'd call any of those things stupid.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:15 pm

Granola could get his wish granted and only be made a bit stronger than Goku, which would quickly be undone after Goku finishes training with Whis. We'll just have to wait and see what happens, I think it will be a fun arc though, I'm looking forward to it.

Also if he does get his wish granted it will set some interesting precedent for how powerful a Namekian can really become, and I hope this somehow leads to Piccolo becoming relevant again and scaling up to Goku and Vegetas power levels.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:16 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:09 pmThese things are certainly simple and obvious, and I can see why one might be disappointed if something more intricate had been hoped for (I have done so myself, on occasion). But I don't know if I'd call any of those things stupid.
When you market the sequel to the most successful movie in the franchise as having the worst wish ever granted, I honestly can't think of many things that would be more stupid than what they ended up going with. What makes things even worse is that they didn't even do anything new with Freeza, instead going back to the structure of Z's old movies where basically nothing happens story wise. Obviously some things happened, but nowhere near as much as in BOG. It was a major step back from not only a writing standpoint, but a production one as well.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:49 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:16 pmWhen you market the sequel to the most successful movie in the franchise as having the worst wish ever granted, I honestly can't think of many things that would be more stupid than what they ended up going with.
Marketing choices aren't storytelling choices - in any case, the claim is basically factual, even with the wish we got.
Matches Malone wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:16 pmWhat makes things even worse is that they didn't even do anything new with Freeza, instead going back to the structure of Z's old movies where basically nothing happens story wise.
I hate to say it, but not that much worthy of remark 'happens' in Battle of Gods, either. The best and most unique things about it were that Beerus had a quirky twist on his character, for a Movie antagonist, and that Goku didn't win in the end even after getting his big special power-up (showing there's another mountain to climb). That's pretty much it. Obviously Revival of F has an established, less 'quirky' antagonist to it, with whom they could do less surprising stuff, but (although I wouldn't go as far as saying I like the film much, so don't take this as a defense of it) I wouldn't have expected to see Goku blindsided and handing over to someone else to do the beat-down on the villain, or to see Earth blown up by the villain, in a 'standard Z Movie'. Sure, those plot moves lead into some pretty obvious and simple resolutions, like I said, but I wouldn't say nothing 'happens', relative to what usually 'happens' in a Dragon Ball movie.

If nothing else, it sets running the idea that Goku and Vegeta are much stronger together than they are apart (though they try not to act together), which became a mainstay theme of Dragon Ball Super; it also introduces the notion that the path to power is not in the 'standard Z' escalation of power, but rather in the way one uses one's power in terms of movement (which gets its payoff in the Tournament of Power and beyond); it shows Freeza returning to assume his proper role as (as Toyotarou put it) 'the villain for the present day', and it showed the beginning of Freeza's character moving to align more with the kind of things Goku does, rather than only staying as he always was (actually putting the work in by training to get more power, specifically, though for his well-established scumbag reasons). It doesn't do any of those things satisfactorily on its own, I'll agree, but it at least brings those things out so that they're in place for better usage later (and we got a much better outing of Freeza in the Tournament of Power - in the manga version, at least, he's one of the best things about it).

So, yeah. I'm going to stand by my position on this. More intricate things could certainly have been done in order the scratch that particular fan itch (and the things that were done could certainly have been done better in this specific instance), but I'll take a pass on saying they're flat-out stupid.

Bringing this back around to the OP, would it be stupid for Granolah's wish to be granted here? It would be 'quick and easy', and arguably unsatisfying, but I take the view that it sort of depends on what that feeds into further on in the story. Granolah's doing the wrong thing, for the wrong reasons, in the wrong way - is it possible that the story moving on in this vein might actually be okay, given the message it's pushing around his motivations?

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:00 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:49 pmI hate to say it, but not that much worthy of remark 'happens' in Battle of Gods, either. The best and most unique things about it were that Beerus had a quirky twist on his character, for a Movie antagonist, and that Goku didn't win in the end even after getting his big special power-up (showing there's another mountain to climb). That's pretty much it.

I wouldn't have expected to see Goku blindsided and handing over to someone else to do the beat-down on the villain, or to see Earth blown up by the villain, in a 'standard Z Movie'.
Vegeta got great character development, new lore was introduced into the franchise, Goku himself also got character development, and the fights were far better and more exciting than what RF had. I understand the movie isn't for everyone, but it did what you'd expect a story written by the original author to do, move everything forward. RF unfortunately didn't have that sense of progression that BOG had, as everything at the end was more or less how it was when it started, unlike BOG where the plot felt like it had progressed by the end of it.

I agree that these 2 events aren't typical of a standard Z movie, but turning back time and giving Goku the kill are. The biggest issue is that they wanted to have their cake and eat it to, which resulted in neither working out.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Feb 26, 2021 2:53 pm

I think the dragon will just tell him something he can do to become more powerful, or give him an object he can use, or maybe send him some place he can get stronger. It won't just instantly make him the strongest.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:34 pm

FlpShimizu wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:24 pm In sum, you didn't get what you wanted and that makes things bad or stupid.
That's how opinions work, yes.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:12 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:49 pm So, yeah. I'm going to stand by my position on this. More intricate things could certainly have been done in order the scratch that particular fan itch (and the things that were done could certainly have been done better in this specific instance), but I'll take a pass on saying they're flat-out stupid.
Hello.
I write for a living. Not obviously in english language.
Do you know what is always ported as an example of a stupid story to new writers?

Guess what franchise.

Now, "stupid" could have a lotta meanings. In this case mean "having a lot of potential to lure 100% audience, and wrongly picking the less RESPONSIBLE choice in the fear of losing that 10% audience".
A lot of people here thought the DaiShinKan was evil. Due graphical representations. And if you'll mind a bit, that could have been easily made.
But to made so, you get some responsibility: to tell a more deep, twisted and moral story. Maybe kids will not understand it.
When you write you get responsibilities. For example, introducing BORGS in Star Trek was a great assumption of responsibility.
In modern DB BORGS will translate to: oh, well, Goku will learn that antiborg move and they all expire.
But wait, they have nano-technology, how to manage it?
No, well, they simply get a boost of power.
They have assimilation!
No, later they forget about.
And they assimilate entire worlds!!
No, well, we risk they assimilate something we have to narrate later, let's not take this responsibility. Remove assimilations.
So, what are Borgs?
Nothing. Another thing to bash and excuse to add an hair recolor. People like hair recolors. Wait for Purple Vegeta...
And that's definitely STUPID.

It's not a matter of intricacy, is a matter of always picking the LESS risky and burdening road having a lot of possible lines of conduit. The LESS RISKY one, not even the simplest, as Moro turned a mess of storytelling that way.

Now, if Granola become the stronger in the Universe, beat people up, get beaten by Vegeta... doesn't you feel cheated when you have gods, galaxies, aliens, plots, magic and whatever to have something less "stupid" (== more risky on a writer sense) to happen?
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:54 am

ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:12 am Hello.
I write for a living. Not obviously in english language.
Do you know what is always ported as an example of a stupid story to new writers?

Guess what franchise.

Now, "stupid" could have a lotta meanings. In this case mean "having a lot of potential to lure 100% audience, and wrongly picking the less RESPONSIBLE choice in the fear of losing that 10% audience".
A lot of people here thought the DaiShinKan was evil. Due graphical representations. And if you'll mind a bit, that could have been easily made.
But to made so, you get some responsibility: to tell a more deep, twisted and moral story. Maybe kids will not understand it.
When you write you get responsibilities. For example, introducing BORGS in Star Trek was a great assumption of responsibility.
In modern DB BORGS will translate to: oh, well, Goku will learn that antiborg move and they all expire.
But wait, they have nano-technology, how to manage it?
No, well, they simply get a boost of power.
They have assimilation!
No, later they forget about.
And they assimilate entire worlds!!
No, well, we risk they assimilate something we have to narrate later, let's not take this responsibility. Remove assimilations.
So, what are Borgs?
Nothing. Another thing to bash and excuse to add an hair recolor. People like hair recolors. Wait for Purple Vegeta...
And that's definitely STUPID.

It's not a matter of intricacy, is a matter of always picking the LESS risky and burdening road having a lot of possible lines of conduit. The LESS RISKY one, not even the simplest, as Moro turned a mess of storytelling that way.

Now, if Granola become the stronger in the Universe, beat people up, get beaten by Vegeta... doesn't you feel cheated when you have gods, galaxies, aliens, plots, magic and whatever to have something less "stupid" (== more risky on a writer sense) to happen?
I overall agree with these points. The biggest issue facing Modern DB is the writers' fear of doing anything outside the box in fear of, like you said, losing 10% or so of the audience.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by PurestEvil » Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:21 am

ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:12 am Hello.
I write for a living. Not obviously in english language.
Do you know what is always ported as an example of a stupid story to new writers?

Guess what franchise.

Now, "stupid" could have a lotta meanings. In this case mean "having a lot of potential to lure 100% audience, and wrongly picking the less RESPONSIBLE choice in the fear of losing that 10% audience".
A lot of people here thought the DaiShinKan was evil. Due graphical representations. And if you'll mind a bit, that could have been easily made.
But to made so, you get some responsibility: to tell a more deep, twisted and moral story. Maybe kids will not understand it.
When you write you get responsibilities. For example, introducing BORGS in Star Trek was a great assumption of responsibility.
In modern DB BORGS will translate to: oh, well, Goku will learn that antiborg move and they all expire.
But wait, they have nano-technology, how to manage it?
No, well, they simply get a boost of power.
They have assimilation!
No, later they forget about.
And they assimilate entire worlds!!
No, well, we risk they assimilate something we have to narrate later, let's not take this responsibility. Remove assimilations.
So, what are Borgs?
Nothing. Another thing to bash and excuse to add an hair recolor. People like hair recolors. Wait for Purple Vegeta...
And that's definitely STUPID.

It's not a matter of intricacy, is a matter of always picking the LESS risky and burdening road having a lot of possible lines of conduit. The LESS RISKY one, not even the simplest, as Moro turned a mess of storytelling that way.

Now, if Granola become the stronger in the Universe, beat people up, get beaten by Vegeta... doesn't you feel cheated when you have gods, galaxies, aliens, plots, magic and whatever to have something less "stupid" (== more risky on a writer sense) to happen?
You hit the goddamn nail on the head. This arc is the one chance for Toyotarou/Toriyama to broaden the narrative scope of the series and pull itself from its mire of mediocrity. After all, we must not forget about the Heeters and Sugarians. They should be addressed in the long-term conflict of the story.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:33 am

ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:12 amIt's not a matter of intricacy, is a matter of always picking the LESS risky and burdening road having a lot of possible lines of conduit. The LESS RISKY one, not even the simplest, as Moro turned a mess of storytelling that way.

Now, if Granola become the stronger in the Universe, beat people up, get beaten by Vegeta... doesn't you feel cheated when you have gods, galaxies, aliens, plots, magic and whatever to have something less "stupid" (== more risky on a writer sense) to happen?
I take the view that it depends on how and why these things happen, and specifically how they're depicted. When phrased reductively in a bare outline, I've seen plenty to not like in the past, but when actually seeing how it turns out on the page, and why, it seems okay to me. By the same token, even if you have just laid out the basic way the Granolah arc will go, to me it really depends on what specifically happens within that, how, and why. Because to me, as a reader, those details are the things that make the story, once viewed within a narrative whole.

I might dislike it if Granolah's wish is granted, but like I said, would it be 'stupid' for the narrative to go this way? Most of the people here are saying it would be stupid to do it, but that choice just leaves things as they are, and this becomes a fake-out, or maybe even a diversion from the main thrust of the narrative (so I'm not sure why that would be the 'riskier' option, from a storytelling perspective). If Granolah is doing the wrong thing, in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons, I don't know if I'd say it would be stupid for the story to take the logic of that at full run and have that run through a set of direct consequences, including combative ones - again, it would depend specifically how those things would work themselves out.

As for whether I'd feel cheated by them not tossing more into the mix to 'take a risk' - it's odd that you pick the specific things you do, after calling the Moro arc a 'too safe' mess, because all the things you've described as things that could be introduced to heighten the narrative risk are...extremely prominent features of the Moro arc. Tossing in the kitchen sink to 'shake things up', or whatever, is one way of doing things, I guess, but I don't know if I'd agree that it necessarily answers what you're saying about the responsibilities of the storyteller.

That's just how I feel about it as a reader. But I'm happy to defer to your experience.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 28, 2021 6:44 am

ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:12 am
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:49 pm So, yeah. I'm going to stand by my position on this. More intricate things could certainly have been done in order the scratch that particular fan itch (and the things that were done could certainly have been done better in this specific instance), but I'll take a pass on saying they're flat-out stupid.
Hello.
I write for a living. Not obviously in english language.
Do you know what is always ported as an example of a stupid story to new writers?

Guess what franchise.

Now, "stupid" could have a lotta meanings. In this case mean "having a lot of potential to lure 100% audience, and wrongly picking the less RESPONSIBLE choice in the fear of losing that 10% audience".
A lot of people here thought the DaiShinKan was evil. Due graphical representations. And if you'll mind a bit, that could have been easily made.
But to made so, you get some responsibility: to tell a more deep, twisted and moral story. Maybe kids will not understand it.
When you write you get responsibilities. For example, introducing BORGS in Star Trek was a great assumption of responsibility.
In modern DB BORGS will translate to: oh, well, Goku will learn that antiborg move and they all expire.
But wait, they have nano-technology, how to manage it?
No, well, they simply get a boost of power.
They have assimilation!
No, later they forget about.
And they assimilate entire worlds!!
No, well, we risk they assimilate something we have to narrate later, let's not take this responsibility. Remove assimilations.
So, what are Borgs?
Nothing. Another thing to bash and excuse to add an hair recolor. People like hair recolors. Wait for Purple Vegeta...
And that's definitely STUPID.

It's not a matter of intricacy, is a matter of always picking the LESS risky and burdening road having a lot of possible lines of conduit. The LESS RISKY one, not even the simplest, as Moro turned a mess of storytelling that way.

Now, if Granola become the stronger in the Universe, beat people up, get beaten by Vegeta... doesn't you feel cheated when you have gods, galaxies, aliens, plots, magic and whatever to have something less "stupid" (== more risky on a writer sense) to happen?

While I may agree with your overall point using Vegeta beating up the main villain as the example of a less risky solution is sort of funny. That is never going to happen.

Instead it will probably be the same formula of Vegeta learning something new. The series hyping it up and then Vegeta losing in less than 1/2 a chapter .

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Re: I REALLY hope the dragon does not grant Granola's wish

Post by BWri » Sun Feb 28, 2021 7:20 am

emperior wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:02 pm The dragon won’t grant his wish but I doubt Granola will achieve enough power to rival Goku by training in the old fashion.

He will most likely obtain 73’s stored Merus power somehow, either through wishing for it or with some weird technique.
I think the Dragon's going to tell him HOW to become the strongest and like you say, it will involve the power inside of 7-3.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Grimlock » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:42 am

ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:12 amPeople like hair recolors. Wait for Purple Vegeta...

Damn. :sick: May I please get what I like just for once, then?
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 am

Grimlock wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:42 am
ChronoTwigger wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:12 amPeople like hair recolors. Wait for Purple Vegeta...

Damn. :sick: May I please get what I like just for once, then?
I don't think his hair color will change, no one else's hair color changed when using hakai

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:05 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 am I don't think his hair color will change, no one else's hair color changed when using hakai
No one's hair color changes while using UI, but that didn't stop Goku's from changing. They need to move heroes cards and DLC after all.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:22 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:05 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 am I don't think his hair color will change, no one else's hair color changed when using hakai
No one's hair color changes while using UI, but that didn't stop Goku's from changing. They need to move heroes cards and DLC after all.
The angels are permanently in UI mode so their hair color shouldn't change, and they have white hair like Goku in MUI.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Matches Malone » Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:28 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:22 pmThe angels are permanently in UI mode so their hair color shouldn't change, and they have white hair like Goku in MUI.
There's no way Vegeta is getting a massive power up without a hair color change. There's too much marketing potential for that not to happen.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Kinokima » Sun Feb 28, 2021 2:14 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:28 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:22 pmThe angels are permanently in UI mode so their hair color shouldn't change, and they have white hair like Goku in MUI.
There's no way Vegeta is getting a massive power up without a hair color change. There's too much marketing potential for that not to happen.
To be fair they are not really marketing anything from the manga

So unless there is an anime forthcoming we may actually not see any big visual changes manga wise

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:38 pm

Matches Malone wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:28 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 12:22 pmThe angels are permanently in UI mode so their hair color shouldn't change, and they have white hair like Goku in MUI.
There's no way Vegeta is getting a massive power up without a hair color change. There's too much marketing potential for that not to happen.
But why is color itself the problem? If this new form or whatever he learns ends up changing his appearance or hair color, does it really matter if it works well for his character arc and narrative? I'm not really excited to see any hair changes, but I don't see it as an intrinsically bad thing.

There is this whole concept about Vegeta needing to recreate himself from scratch, about technique representing his path opposite to that of Goku and Ultra Instinct and a transformation can convey that well. And Dragon Ball is usually very good at conveying the feeling of power and growth through new transformations that connect and reinforce these characters' arcs.

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