I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Grimlock » Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:57 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 amI don't think his hair color will change, no one else's hair color changed when using hakai
As already stated and you already answered, I'm just gonna add that Gods of Destruction also don't transform when using Ultra Instinct, yet Goku has to transform.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:38 pmdoes it really matter if it works well for his character arc and narrative?
So, what? Are we meant to accept each and every recolor they decide to throw at us just because "they might work well for the character arc and narrative"? Might as well change the name to "Dragon Rainbow" then.

More importantly, when does it work? Because none of these recolors work for me.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:38 pmAnd Dragon Ball is usually very good at conveying the feeling of power and growth through new transformations
Oddly enough, I got that feeling with Ultimate and Saiyan beyond God, which aren't transformations (well, Ultimate is a transformation in the anime, but since this thread is for manga stuff...).

Seems to me you don't need transformations, not all the time at least.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:40 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:57 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 amI don't think his hair color will change, no one else's hair color changed when using hakai
As already stated and you already answered, I'm just gonna add that Gods of Destruction also don't transform when using Ultra Instinct, yet Goku has to transform.
Have they been shown using MUI? I don't remember it happening, but I haven't watched Super in awhile

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:48 pm

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:40 pm
Grimlock wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:57 pm
UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:49 amI don't think his hair color will change, no one else's hair color changed when using hakai
As already stated and you already answered, I'm just gonna add that Gods of Destruction also don't transform when using Ultra Instinct, yet Goku has to transform.
Have they been shown using MUI? I don't remember it happening, but I haven't watched Super in awhile
Gods of Destruction have not been shown using Ultra Instinct yet, no. Angels are the only Gods who have been shown using Ultra Instinct proper so far, inasmuch as they are always using it.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:56 pm

Grimlock wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:57 pm So, what? Are we meant to accept each and every recolor they decide to throw at us just because "they might work well for the character arc and narrative"? Might as well change the name to "Dragon Rainbow" then.

More importantly, when does it work? Because none of these recolors work for me.
That's how transformations work. If there is a purpose, building on it during the story and a solid presentation then the chances of it impacting readers is much greater regardless of whether it is "recolor" or not, because there is nothing intrinsically bad about it (not for me, at least). I can fully understand the complaints about Super Saiyan Blue (despite being a transformation I love), about being created only by the sake of having a new form in a new Dragon Ball movie, because there is little construction or foreshadowing about it during the narrative, it just appears out of nowhere with a lackluster presentation, even if I like the concept. The same goes for the transformation used by Future Trunks in the anime for example.

So yes, I see no problem with a new transformation if it has meaning and works for the story.
Grimlock wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 3:57 pm Oddly enough, I got that feeling with Ultimate and Saiyan beyond God, which aren't transformations (well, Ultimate is a transformation in the anime, but since this thread is for manga stuff...).

Seems to me you don't need transformations, not all the time at least.
I didn't say that only transformations are necessary for this. But some of the most iconic scenes in the franchise are transformations where everything I mentioned above is involved. Also, it's not as if Dragon Ball were super exaggerated with the visuals of the transformations anyway, and Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are examples.

They are not really different from hair color changes in terms of looks. But the fandom in general seems to have a strange conception of what the transformations in the series should look like in which apparently if there are no drastic changes like Super Saiyan 4 then it is called "lazy"

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Grimlock » Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:20 am

UpFromTheSkies wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:40 pmHave they been shown using MUI? I don't remember it happening, but I haven't watched Super in awhile
No, but regardless of that, Ultra Instinct -Sign- is also a transformation for Goku. His eyes and hairstyle change, nothing of sorts were seen in the Gods of Destruction.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:56 pmSo yes, I see no problem with a new transformation if it has meaning and works for the story.
There has to be a limit to that, even if "they work narratively". If you can convey a message without resorting to the same gimmick over and over again, do it.

Again, Saiyan beyond God and Ultimate are both great ideas. Because, at the end of the day, "works for the story" still comes down to "an excuse to achieve greater power". And if it's just for the character to be stronger, then these two states already do that without having to exhaust the transformations fatigue.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:56 pmAlso, it's not as if Dragon Ball were super exaggerated with the visuals of the transformations anyway, and Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are examples.
The way things should be. There's really no need to go all flashy. Let Vegeta learn/use such technique without sporting a purple (or any other color that isn't black or golden) hair.

I said in another thread, but if you really want to change something, change the hairstyle instead. It's cool to see other kinds of hairstyles. Also, there's the aura. It's something I think it would be cool to mess around (I really liked Goku Black's black aura), other colors, a permanent aura, add details to it (like Ultra Instinct has). Use those to convey whatever you want to tell. There's really no need for more recolors.


I feel like I should say: this is coming from someone who has purple as his favorite color. Even if Vegeta does end up looking cool (like in a fanart I saw the other day), it would still contribute to this endless and unnecessary Saiyans transformations.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Mar 01, 2021 7:52 pm

Grimlock wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:20 am There has to be a limit to that, even if "they work narratively". If you can convey a message without resorting to the same gimmick over and over again, do it.

Again, Saiyan beyond God and Ultimate are both great ideas. Because, at the end of the day, "works for the story" still comes down to "an excuse to achieve greater power". And if it's just for the character to be stronger, then these two states already do that without having to exhaust the transformations fatigue.
I agree that there must be a limit to the amount of transformations because a large increase in them in a short period of time also undermines their impact, which is something I mentioned as one of the main factors that make them great. But it's good to keep in mind that when it comes to the manga, there is no overload of new forms, at least not for Goku and Vegeta.

SSB remained the strongest form for 4 arcs, and one of the main points of it in the story was that Goku and Vegeta trained to constantly improve Blue instead of looking for stronger forms. The narrative also reinforces this notion with Trunks, who was able to strengthen his SSJ2 to a level similar to Goku's SSJ3, without having to rely on new forms like Goku. Even Ultra Instinct now has different levels of mastery for Goku to obtain instead of just getting a new form
Grimlock wrote: Mon Mar 01, 2021 12:20 am The way things should be. There's really no need to go all flashy. Let Vegeta learn/use such technique without sporting a purple (or any other color that isn't black or golden) hair.

I said in another thread, but if you really want to change something, change the hairstyle instead. It's cool to see other kinds of hairstyles. Also, there's the aura. It's something I think it would be cool to mess around (I really liked Goku Black's black aura), other colors, a permanent aura, add details to it (like Ultra Instinct has). Use those to convey whatever you want to tell. There's really no need for more recolors.

I feel like I should say: this is coming from someone who has purple as his favorite color. Even if Vegeta does end up looking cool (like in a fanart I saw the other day), it would still contribute to this endless and unnecessary Saiyans transformations.
To reinforce what I said above, even the SSBE in the manga is just an aura change (well, except for the colorful version that has been released, the hair color and the aura in other promotional materials remain the same), there is no big differences and is not even treated as a form apart from the regular Super Saiyan Blue, and has been used for 3 arcs. Particularly, I don't see a problem with a new form now especially if it's to represent this new path that apparently will be important for Vegeta's evolution in the series. And I'm totally fine if it's just an aura change again, like the one before. My point is that if it ends up changing his hair color to purple it won't necessarily be bad either. It will certainly maintain the simple trend of the manga and the series in general.

Well, this is a different discussion, but I think you can argue that one of the factors that drives this trend of new forms with each new arc is the almost universal DB rule that raw power crosses any barrier, including techniques. So techniques alone (without a power boost that usually comes with transformations) cannot make up for the power difference. That's why UI is a transformation for Goku, and that's why Vegeta will also need a power up, separate from this technique, to be able to rival the enemies. This has practically become inherent to DB, there is almost an obligation of ever increasing power ups and, consequently, new forms due to how the series works with its powerscaling. Depending on the person’s view of it, it can be good or bad

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:15 pm

Well...this was quite a disappointment.
Oh well, we'll see where this will go from here :roll:
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by BWri » Tue Mar 23, 2021 2:26 pm

PurestEvil wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:15 pm Well...this was quite a disappointment.
Oh well, we'll see where this will go from here :roll:
Yeah, they just did it. I get that there's a drawback to the wish but it is incredibly underwhelming. Hopefully, them skipping more of a buildup means that there's an even better story they are trying to tell. As you say, we'll see.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Alruneia » Tue Mar 23, 2021 8:08 pm

Oh yeah, this. Well, I guess I was wrong. Mostly, at least. It's the price Granolah had to pay that made the wish possible, so in a vacuum, I guess what I said is technically true... :shifty:
I'm not the biggest fan of things turning out this way, but the silver lining is the high price he paid, along with the fact that this is still the opening act, so things are going to continue to change. There's even some obvious foreshadowing in the chapter about how Granolah's new strength is bound to invite challenge. We'll see how the overall story turns out, I guess.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by BagetaSama » Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:02 am

This wish completely ruined any hope this arc had of being any good. It's a blatant plothole, contradicts everything we've ever known about Shenron, and completely defeats any sense of struggle, or the power feeling "earned" by Granola. The best this does, is show us that he's very serious about acquiring this power, if he will accept the price of dramatically shortening his life.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by PurestEvil » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:49 am

BagetaSama wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:02 am This wish completely ruined any hope this arc had of being any good. It's a blatant plothole, contradicts everything we've ever known about Shenron, and completely defeats any sense of struggle, or the power feeling "earned" by Granola. The best this does, is show us that he's very serious about acquiring this power, if he will accept the price of dramatically shortening his life.
How does this contradict what we know about Shenron? Are all the dragons the same entitiy?
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:14 am

BagetaSama wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 12:02 am This wish completely ruined any hope this arc had of being any good. It's a blatant plothole, contradicts everything we've ever known about Shenron, and completely defeats any sense of struggle, or the power feeling "earned" by Granola. The best this does, is show us that he's very serious about acquiring this power, if he will accept the price of dramatically shortening his life.
It's meant to feel unfair and like a cheat... The situation is designed so that Granolah's power doesn't feel earned. I'm sure there will be ways that this can backfire and lessons that will be learnt about how hollow it is to get to the destination without the journey. Let things play out.

I think it's a mistake to criticise a story for not doing something that it isn't even trying to do.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Dragon Wukong » Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:57 am

If Vegeta does get ANY new form I'd actually want him to have Super Saiyan Rose when he takes the mantle of God of Destruction.

It would make sense in the context of the story and not add a "new" form. It'd just be an appearance change for SSGSS to signify Vegeta's new role.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by BWri » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:35 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 6:14 am It's meant to feel unfair and like a cheat... The situation is designed so that Granolah's power doesn't feel earned. I'm sure there will be ways that this can backfire and lessons that will be learnt about how hollow it is to get to the destination without the journey. Let things play out.

I think it's a mistake to criticise a story for not doing something that it isn't even trying to do.
That's pretty much what I'm holding out for. I don't like the setup itself, but if they use it to tell an interesting story then I can get onboard with that. I've learned from my heavy criticism of Merus previously, that we might as well just let things play out. That's all we can really do anyway.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Thani » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:11 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:57 am If Vegeta does get ANY new form I'd actually want him to have Super Saiyan Rose when he takes the mantle of God of Destruction.

It would make sense in the context of the story and not add a "new" form. It'd just be an appearance change for SSGSS to signify Vegeta's new role.
That is an excellent point. Also bonus points for Vegeta to literally become "Mr. Rosé" like he mocked Black before.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:13 pm

Rosé is the ultimate manifestation of the Gods' splendour and beauty, a ningen brat like Vegeta could never even come close to it. He doesn't deserve it.

Rosé should remain a transformation unique to Goku Black/Fused Zamasu, that makes both the character and the form more unique. Giving it to other characters would ruin everything.

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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:36 pm

I agree with SupremeKai25 on this one. Even though SSJ Rosee is kind of nebulous as of now, it should remain as a unique form for Goku Black. Its uniqueness is pretty much the only thing that makes it stand out from the other SSJ forms.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by Trouser » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:39 pm

Yeah, Rosé should stay as a exclusive for Goku Black. Vegeta should stick to his ugly Blue Evolution or even better just Blue which is still ugly but thousand more times better than Blue Evolution.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:42 pm

Trouser wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:39 pm Yeah, Rosé should stay as a exclusive for Goku Black. Vegeta should stick to his ugly Blue Evolution or even better just Blue which is still ugly but thousand more times better than Blue Evolution.
SSJ Blue ain't that ugly. It's still the worst, but it doesn't look bad. Blue evolution does look like ass, though.
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Re: I REALLY hope that... <MANGA SPOILERS>

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:38 pm

This theory would only be possible if Vegeta became Hakaishin tho, which I find very difficult to happen.

Anyway, in the manga Rosé is just the SSGSS form of a divine being. Vegeta currently has a superior form (SSBE), with the possibility of him obtaining a new form in the current arc. Giving him the Rosé version of the SSGSS would seem like a step backwards and would indees take away the "unique" factor that Black has with that transformation (and it would conflict with the fact that Vegeta is on his own path now).

But I'm not going to lie that aesthetically it could look cool tho

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