Do you like the fact that Hakai has been retconned to equal UI now??!

[GodVegetto91]

I certainly do! This gives Vegeta a fighting chance to keep up with Goku, and also removes the whole stigma that Angels are only superior to Gods of Destruction BECAUSE of their Ultra Instinct.. It really isn’t, as we’re now finding out. Hakai is an opposite, yet EQUAL technique to UI. It’s a different evolution.. I suppose it balances out, right? Since UI has all the speed, skills, and dodging hax, while Hakai has all the destructive power... UI would be far inferior when it comes to “destruction” and “destroying” things.. But better when it comes to avoiding danger and has more skill on the battlefield, while GoD Mode would be far superior when it comes to finishing opponents off and ending the battle. Destroying planets, energy balls, WINNING beam struggles! Etc. Etc.. It balances out!

Angels simply have a MUCH higher power level (more ki) than the Gods of Destruction (who are originally born as mortals) and other mortals as well ofcourse..

So what I am proposing here is my belief and idea that Beerus has a much higher control over Hakai than Whis has over UI.. And indeed I would even argue that Beerus has an even “slightly” greater control over Hakai than even the Grand Priest does over his UI!

Now before you call me crazy.. Hear me out.. Obviously GP would one shot Beerus in a fight.. But that’s because his battle power is almost infinitely greater than Beerus-sama’s battle power (amount ki)!

I am talking about the actual control over their techniques..

Beerus sama has been very strongly implied to be the pinnacle of destructive energy.. While GP the highest of all beings currently alive in UI.. Whis implied that Goku could potentially achieve a higher level of UI than the Grand Priest..

Once Goku achieves such an absolute and ultimate state of UI, he will then be able to fight on par with and overpower Lord Beerus even!

What do you guys think???

[Polyphase Avatron]

Nothing has been retconned. It's just that different characters have different levels of mastery of these techniques.

[GodVegetto91]

Nothing has been retconned. It's just that different characters have different levels of mastery of these techniques.

False. UI has always clearly been showcased as something naturally superior to Hakai.. There are many examples that prove this.. But now, it’s been retconned.

[Matches Malone]

I don't consider it a retcon, or at least not that big of one because they've been pretty vague in regards to how the powers of angles and gods work. Maybe one on one UI is stronger, but what if Hakai is used a certain way ? or what if it's combined with something else ? The vagueness of these powers gives the writers room to work with.

[Hugo Boss]

I wouldn’t classify this subject as a retcon either, since they never spelled out that Ultra Instinct is the superior technique. Maybe this idea comes from the fact that Gods of Destruction didn’t master it or the angels are notably better fighters, but now we know the reason. It doesn’t suit them or at least they can’t use them at the same time. Imagine to be able to change your mindset in the middle of battle, that’s quite challenging. Beerus can only manage it for a while.

[TheSaiyanGod]

This is not necessarily a retcon. Whis said during ToP that Ultra Instinct was the Ultimate Technique of the Gods. The only thing that has changed is that now the UI is not the only technique of the Gods (which was expected, but now we have confirmation of the existence of another one, which is also used for combat).

Beerus implies that Vegeta can overcome Goku using this, but it doesn't necessarily put this GoD technique on its own at the same level as the UI, and it doesn't even need to. UI can be the ultimate technique of the Gods and Vegeta can still overcome Goku using another technique that is not necessarily better. As Beerus said, overcoming Goku is only up to Vegeta. Just like the story itself has been teasing the fact that Beerus is at least at the level of current UI Goku (although he himself has a vastly inferior UI, but mastery of using other techniques of the Gods of Destruction). The level of users will depend only on the mastery they have over these techniques

We also already know that the UI can be overcome using raw power (just like any other technique in Dragon Ball), so there's that too.

[Peach]

Hakai is so poorly explained in the first place. I don't think it matters.

[UpFromTheSkies]

The impression I got is that neither is necessarily superior to the other, it depends on the user. I don't pay much attention to power scaling explanations in DB though, they're never consistent,Toriyama seems to just make things up and change things on the fly as needed without giving it too much thought.

[Smilodon]

Toppo had mastered the Hakai, while Jiren had an unmastered UI.

Jiren >>> Toppo

[GodVegetto91]

Toppo had mastered the Hakai, while Jiren had an unmastered UI.

Jiren >>> Toppo

What????! Your post doesn’t make any sense..

[ChronoTwigger]

I'm now justified to call you "crazy"?

I mean, UI is a technique (despite beng the worst explained tech ever). Hakai is a gun.
If I own a good gun, I can shoot you and bye.
If you own a good technique, you win the annual karate competition.

You cannot compare such different stuff.

[GodVegetto91]

I'm now justified to call you "crazy"?

I mean, UI is a technique (despite beng the worst explained tech ever). Hakai is a gun.
If I own a good gun, I can shoot you and bye.
If you own a good technique, you win the annual karate competition.

You cannot compare such different stuff.

I don’t understand your very first sentence though.. Let’s just keep it respectful here, okay??

I actually agree with you and like your theory quite a lot here!

Yes, Hakai is like owning a Gun. While UI, is being the best Karate master in the world. The two can not truly be compared, as they exist for different purposes. One exists simply as a power to make your ”job” of destroying planets far more easy and efficient, and was never intended for battle.. (that’s not to say it wouldn’t be incredibly useful though!) while the other exists, SOLELY for battle...

But the reason WHY I made this thread in the first place, is as a reaction to the many fans who are saying that UI is inherently “Superior” to Hakai... It really isn’t. It’s just a different kind of power..

[Thani]

To be fair, it was never stated that Ultra Instinct is inherently superior to Destruction Energy. What WAS said, instead, is that it's a difficult state to master. So difficult, indeed, that even the Gods can't quite get the hang of it easily - and that's the thing, they said easily, so the Gods can indeed utilize UI and even master it, the statement serves just to hype the act of completing it an enormous feat.

So yeah, UI may not be inherently stronger than Destruction, but it's sure a lot harder to control and master. In a sense, you can argue that UI grants greater fighting skills while Destruction grants greater, well, raw power. It's up in the air what would happen if equal opponents with the same mastery of their craft were to do battle, but I imagine that: the user of Destruction energy would find himself outmatched by the UI user in direct combat, and thus would rely on keeping his distance and attacking with energy attacks - which, btw, can totally defeat the UI user if it hits, but he will normally dodge them.

So the end result would be up in the air, I think it would depend on wether the UI user can beat the Hakai user before he actually gets hit, which would be close to an OHKO for him.

[GodVegetto91]

To be fair, it was never stated that Ultra Instinct is inherently superior to Destruction Energy. What WAS said, instead, is that it's a difficult state to master. So difficult, indeed, that even the Gods can't quite get the hang of it easily - and that's the thing, they said easily, so the Gods can indeed utilize UI and even master it, the statement serves just to hype the act of completing it an enormous feat.

So yeah, UI may not be inherently stronger than Destruction, but it's sure a lot harder to control and master. In a sense, you can argue that UI grants greater fighting skills while Destruction grants greater, well, raw power. It's up in the air what would happen if equal opponents with the same mastery of their craft were to do battle, but I imagine that: the user of Destruction energy would find himself outmatched by the UI user in direct combat, and thus would rely on keeping his distance and attacking with energy attacks - which, btw, can totally defeat the UI user if it hits, but he will normally dodge them.

So the end result would be up in the air, I think it would depend on wether the UI user can beat the Hakai user before he actually gets hit, which would be close to an OHKO for him.

I agree.

[Gogeta_Blue]

I do like the idea of Hakai besting UI in raw power (at least the lowest level of UI that Goku currently has), but not as polished in fighting skills since the user is still commanding their body. So they more or less even out.

And yes, I think it's fairly likely that Vegeta will get a new form. Transformations are money makers and Blue Evolution Vegeta throwing purple ki blasts won't do that. Like UI Goku, they'll probably give him something new to show that he's in that state.

[GodVegetto91]

To be fair, it was never stated that Ultra Instinct is inherently superior to Destruction Energy. What WAS said, instead, is that it's a difficult state to master. So difficult, indeed, that even the Gods can't quite get the hang of it easily - and that's the thing, they said easily, so the Gods can indeed utilize UI and even master it, the statement serves just to hype the act of completing it an enormous feat.

So yeah, UI may not be inherently stronger than Destruction, but it's sure a lot harder to control and master. In a sense, you can argue that UI grants greater fighting skills while Destruction grants greater, well, raw power. It's up in the air what would happen if equal opponents with the same mastery of their craft were to do battle, but I imagine that: the user of Destruction energy would find himself outmatched by the UI user in direct combat, and thus would rely on keeping his distance and attacking with energy attacks - which, btw, can totally defeat the UI user if it hits, but he will normally dodge them.

So the end result would be up in the air, I think it would depend on wether the UI user can beat the Hakai user before he actually gets hit, which would be close to an OHKO for him.

I mean.. You can’t BEAT what you can’t HIT.. Right???

But since Hakai grants MASSIVELY superior DESTRUCTION powers than UI, it balances it out as an “equal” Technique...

[GodVegetto91]

I do like the idea of Hakai besting UI in raw power (at least the lowest level of UI that Goku currently has), but not as polished in fighting skills since the user is still commanding their body. So they more or less even out.

And yes, I think it's fairly likely that Vegeta will get a new form. Transformations are money makers and Blue Evolution Vegeta throwing purple ki blasts won't do that. Like UI Goku, they'll probably give him something new to show that he's in that state.

I 100% agree with your post. Good job!

[emperior]

I think that once Goku’s mastery of UI surpasses the GP’s then he will be stronger than him. Whis’ dialogue basically was scaling the Angels and Goku. He showed how his higher mastery of UI is what puts him on a higher level than Goku. Therefore a higher mastery of UI results in a higher power level. It’s as simple as that.

And we still have no idea how Beerus scales to Whis or what his mastery of the destruction technique is and if he still has room of improvement over the technique. But I doubt it very much that Beerus is much above current UI Goku. He may still be a bit stronger but at the moment I believe a full power fight between the two would be very hard fought.

[GodVegetto91]

I think that once Goku’s mastery of UI surpasses the GP’s then he will be stronger than him. Whis’ dialogue basically was scaling the Angels and Goku. He showed how his higher mastery of UI is what puts him on a higher level than Goku. Therefore a higher mastery of UI results in a higher power level. It’s as simple as that.

And we still have no idea how Beerus scales to Whis or what his mastery of the destruction technique is and if he still has room of improvement over the technique. But I doubt it very much that Beerus is much above current UI Goku. He may still be a bit stronger but at the moment I believe a full power fight between the two would be very hard fought.

Goku will never surpass the Grand Priest..

Do you really think Goku will reach Grand Priest level, while Vegeta will only reach Beerus level??? You see, this is what’s wrong with fans here today. They immediately believe the simplest idea without thinking it through enough. They think that since UI is a technique of the Angels, it must therefore be infinitely superior to Hakai, which is a technique from the Gods of Destruction, (who just happen to be far inferior to Angels.) But this is not the case.. The 2 techniques are equal to eachother more or less.

Goku can get the Grand Priest’s level of mastery over UI.. But never his power level! Which is infinitely higher.

Remember that ever since Super started, Beerus has been stated to be a FUTURE RIVAL! to Goku and Vegeta..

Now think closely about what that really means....

Beerus is an absolute EXPERT in Hakai.. Having a level of mastery at least on the Grand Priest’s level of control over UI.. (possibly higher even.)!

The whole theme of Super itself ever since the beginning, is that Beerus is supposed to be a future rival for Goku and Vegeta. And just like them, he is a fellow STUDENT of Whis aswell!

And thus, he is much weaker than Whis...

This very strongly implies that Goku and Vegeta’s “END GOAL” is to reach and surpass Beerus only...

Not Whis.. Not the Grand Priest!

The Angels seem to be off limits for mortals to ever achieve.

Remember that Beerus himself is originally just a mortal..!

He was born a mortal and became a GoD later.

So he’s had the same destiny (and limit) as Goku and Vegeta’s end game is supposed to be. Afterall, Beerus will die a mortal again in some time.

Whis and the other Angels are true divinities, NOT chosen from among any mortals, and literally born there in the “world beyond”.

[emperior]

You are mixing too much headcanon with facts. Beerus has basically already been surpassed and nothing ever pointed out towards the end goal of Super being that of Goku and Vegeta reaching Beerus’ level.

In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if by the end of the current arc Beerus will be surpassed by both Goku and Vegeta with no doubt left about it.

Also UI is still king, that’s why Beerus was trying to learn it and got irritated once he saw Goku achieving it before him in the Tournament of Power.

I think Vegeta will learn Beerus’ technique but add his own twists and maybe it will tie in with some new Saiyan form (or with the inner Oozaru power) in order to reach Goku’s Ultra Instinct with sheer power alone, like Jiren was able to.