It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

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It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:51 am

As that is a state of UI that IS more easily attainable for the Gods of Destruction.. (As Beerus himself has it aswell..!)

In the case that Vegeta DOES ever attain it, he will likely only use it for very specific tasks which the GoD mode might be inferior in (like speed and dodging hax, or if he needs to focus his mind on something else. And the body has to move on its own ofcourse..)

Because remember, Hakai cannot be used WITH Ultra Instinct... As they requier different states of mind to achieve afterall. It’s one or the other. One at a time..

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:05 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:51 amAs that is a state of UI that IS more easily attainable for the Gods of Destruction.. (As Beerus himself has it aswell..!)
Beerus does not 'have' Omen (as of the last time this subject was addressed in the story, at least). When Goku achieved Omen in the Tournament of Power, Beerus specifically exclaimed at Goku having achieved Ultra Instinct "before me". If he had achieved Omen himself by then, he would not have made such an exclamation.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:36 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:05 am
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:51 amAs that is a state of UI that IS more easily attainable for the Gods of Destruction.. (As Beerus himself has it aswell..!)
Beerus does not 'have' Omen (as of the last time this subject was addressed in the story, at least). When Goku achieved Omen in the Tournament of Power, Beerus specifically exclaimed at Goku having achieved Ultra Instinct "before me". If he had achieved Omen himself by then, he would not have made such an exclamation.
Actually, he does have UI Omen. You keep bringing this up every single time, but that is simply false. Whis mentioned that Beerus-sama has not “mastered” UI yet.. That mastery is the full and completed version of UI with silver hair that Goku has.. But Beerus DOES have a form of UI though.. (As clearly seen during the GoD battle royale in the Manga..) Hence it must be Ultra Instinct Omen.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:55 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:36 am
Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:05 am
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:51 amAs that is a state of UI that IS more easily attainable for the Gods of Destruction.. (As Beerus himself has it aswell..!)
Beerus does not 'have' Omen (as of the last time this subject was addressed in the story, at least). When Goku achieved Omen in the Tournament of Power, Beerus specifically exclaimed at Goku having achieved Ultra Instinct "before me". If he had achieved Omen himself by then, he would not have made such an exclamation.
Actually, he does have UI Omen. You keep bringing this up every single time, but that is simply false. Whis mentioned that Beerus-sama has not “mastered” UI yet.. That mastery is the full and completed version of UI with silver hair that Goku has.. But Beerus DOES have a form of UI though.. (As clearly seen during the GoD battle royale in the Manga..) Hence it must be Ultra Instinct Omen.
The fact that Beerus has some form of UI doesn't necessarily mean that he has the "Omen" form, which he clearly doesn't have considering what he said during the ToP. Roshi was also able to benefit from the UI by using his principles, but he is clearly not even close to the form Goku used it (which is precisely a "sign" or gateway to the real UI, which is closer to the silver haired form than Beerus has ever achieved).

Not that it makes much difference now considering that he has an opposite power and arguably at the level of the UI itself

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:57 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:36 amActually, he does have UI Omen. You keep bringing this up every single time, but that is simply false.
If it's 'false', then you'd need to explain how Beerus treats an instance of Omen as achieving Ultra Instinct "before me" - he doesn't say it in response to True Ultra Instinct, but in response to Omen.

You have not explained that any time I have brought it up, so I will keep bringing it up when you claim Beerus can do Omen, because the way I see it, you have no basis to make the claim that Beerus can do what he himself indicates is beyond his capacity.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:36 amWhis mentioned that Beerus-sama has not “mastered” UI yet.. That mastery is the full and completed version of UI with silver hair that Goku has.. But Beerus DOES have a form of UI though.. (As clearly seen during the GoD battle royale in the Manga..) Hence it must be Ultra Instinct Omen.
Beerus is capable of moving on instinct to a degree. But so is Roshi. No-one would think to argue that Roshi has Omen. Why make that argument for Beerus? Your conclusions don't necessarily follow your premises at all, and they contradict what is actually stated in the material.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:58 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:57 am
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:36 amActually, he does have UI Omen. You keep bringing this up every single time, but that is simply false.
If it's 'false', then you'd need to explain how Beerus treats an instance of Omen as achieving Ultra Instinct "before me" - he doesn't say it in response to True Ultra Instinct, but in response to Omen.

You have not explained that any time I have brought it up, so I will keep bringing it up when you claim Beerus can do Omen, because the way I see it, you have no basis to make the claim that Beerus can do what he himself indicates is beyond his capacity.
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 6:36 amWhis mentioned that Beerus-sama has not “mastered” UI yet.. That mastery is the full and completed version of UI with silver hair that Goku has.. But Beerus DOES have a form of UI though.. (As clearly seen during the GoD battle royale in the Manga..) Hence it must be Ultra Instinct Omen.
Beerus is capable of moving on instinct to a degree. But so is Roshi. No-one would think to argue that Roshi has Omen. Why make that argument for Beerus? Your conclusions don't necessarily follow your premises at all, and they contradict what is actually stated in the material.
The two of you have just as much evidence for your beliefs as I do. Beerus can make all the statements he wants. It doesn’t change the facts and the feats. To claim that Beerus has that pathetic version of UI called “Omen” is NOT a stretch in the least! It’s actually quite generous and laid back of me. Beerus has existed for hundreds of millions of years, and thus has trained at least for that long.. It’s not a far stretch at all. And you’re using headcanon just as much as I do! No objective proof either from you. The fact is, Beerus avoided the attacks of 11 GoDs at once, after which, Whis explained that Beerus’s body has the ability to move on its own.. If that isn’t “proof” enough for you, then I don’t know what is..

If you still disagree with me after this, then let’s just agree to disagree then, and move on.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:21 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:58 am The two of you have just as much evidence for your beliefs as I do. Beerus can make all the statements he wants. It doesn’t change the facts and the feats. To claim that Beerus has that pathetic version of UI called “Omen” is NOT a stretch in the least! It’s actually quite generous and laid back of me. Beerus has existed for hundreds of millions of years, and thus has trained at least for that long.. It’s not a far stretch at all. And you’re using headcanon just as much as I do! No objective proof either from you. The fact is, Beerus avoided the attacks of 11 GoDs at once, after which, Whis explained Beerus’s body has the ability to move on its own.. If that isn’t “proof” enough for you, then I don’t know what is..

If you still disagree with me after this, then let’s just agree to disagree then, and move on.
Beerus's statement on Goku achieving Ultra Instinct before him (when all he's doing is using Omen) is evidence and proof, of the sort that we use for every other matter in Dragon Ball generally - I'm not sure why we'd stop now. When he uses Omen, Goku is doing something that Beerus says he himself hasn't done yet. The fact that you don't even engage with that proof in any way, despite being invited to do so more than once, is frankly puzzling.

Again, the body being able to move on its own is something Roshi can do as well, but he can't use Omen either, so I don't see why this is an 'either-or' position for you, or a hill you seem determined to die on. It's possible to use the principles that make up Ultra Instinct without actually using the technique proper (which we have seen, and which has been stated - so, not conjecture or 'headcanon' in the least), and it seems clear from the statements given that this is true of both Roshi and Beerus, in their different ways.

The issue isn't whether your assertion is a 'stretch' in theory (i.e., it wouldn't have been a surprise or a matter of any difficulty, to me, if the series had stated that Beerus could use Omen), it's that it's contrary to the indications made by the statements of the material itself (i.e., it makes abundantly clear, despite whatever plausibility there might have been to the idea, that he can't). Everything else you've said is just a set of assertions in defiance of that statement from the material. So no, I obviously don't agree with your position, or with the suggestion that it rests on any clear evidentiary basis.

But if you want to move on from that, sure.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:49 am

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:21 am
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 7:58 am The two of you have just as much evidence for your beliefs as I do. Beerus can make all the statements he wants. It doesn’t change the facts and the feats. To claim that Beerus has that pathetic version of UI called “Omen” is NOT a stretch in the least! It’s actually quite generous and laid back of me. Beerus has existed for hundreds of millions of years, and thus has trained at least for that long.. It’s not a far stretch at all. And you’re using headcanon just as much as I do! No objective proof either from you. The fact is, Beerus avoided the attacks of 11 GoDs at once, after which, Whis explained Beerus’s body has the ability to move on its own.. If that isn’t “proof” enough for you, then I don’t know what is..

If you still disagree with me after this, then let’s just agree to disagree then, and move on.
Beerus's statement on Goku achieving Ultra Instinct before him (when all he's doing is using Omen) is evidence and proof, of the sort that we use for every other matter in Dragon Ball generally - I'm not sure why we'd stop now. When he uses Omen, Goku is doing something that Beerus says he himself hasn't done yet. The fact that you don't even engage with that proof in any way, despite being invited to do so more than once, is frankly puzzling.

Again, the body being able to move on its own is something Roshi can do as well, but he can't use Omen either, so I don't see why this is an 'either-or' position for you, or a hill you seem determined to die on. It's possible to use the principles that make up Ultra Instinct without actually using the technique proper (which we have seen, and which has been stated - so, not conjecture or 'headcanon' in the least), and it seems clear from the statements given that this is true of both Roshi and Beerus, in their different ways.

The issue isn't whether your assertion is a 'stretch' in theory (i.e., it wouldn't have been a surprise or a matter of any difficulty, to me, if the series had stated that Beerus could use Omen), it's that it's contrary to the indications made by the statements of the material itself (i.e., it makes abundantly clear, despite whatever plausibility there might have been to the idea, that he can't). Everything else you've said is just a set of assertions in defiance of that statement from the material. So no, I obviously don't agree with your position, or with the suggestion that it rests on any clear evidentiary basis.

But if you want to move on from that, sure.
Didn’t we just agree to disagree? Then why even reply still? You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. It’s obvious we’re not going to agree with eachother here.

As for Roshi, it’s just a high level of technique that “mimmicks” the way of moving that the actual UI does.. The body doesn’t move on its own there. Roshi still thinks and controls his body, rather than the body controlling itself. Roshi’s movements are just similair to the way an Ultra Instinct user’s body moves. Whis and Beerus clearly called it a resemblance to the real UI.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:10 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:49 amDidn’t we just agree to disagree? Then why even reply still? You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe. It’s obvious we’re not going to agree with eachother here.
You made new formulations of your arguments that I thought it was reasonable to address (that is kind of the point, isn't it?). If that's a problem to you, then you can always disengage without making further arguments; I won't mind - but don't just insist on 'leave it there' and then make new arguments; that smacks of just wanting to have the last word for the sake of it.

Speaking of which, you used this post to introduce a new argument, so in line with what I've just said, I'll address it:
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 8:49 amAs for Roshi, it’s just a high level of technique that “mimmicks” the way of moving that the actual UI does.. The body doesn’t move on its own there. Roshi still thinks and controls his body, rather than the body controlling itself. Roshi’s movements are just similair to the way an Ultra Instinct user’s body moves. Whis and Beerus clearly called it a resemblance to the real UI.
This interpretation is highly questionable, as Roshi directly states in Chapter 57 that he has to clear his mind when moving in this way. Which, logically, would be why it resembles Ultra Instinct; it's using those general principles (contrary to your supposition).

So from what I can tell, the series doesn't differentiate in any meaningful way between what Roshi is doing and what Beerus is doing. At best, it's a difference of degree rather than kind: Beerus may be better at doing this than Roshi is (and if he is, the series doesn't go as far as to directly explain why that might be), but neither of them have got as far as Omen - because that's what Beerus tells us.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:20 am

To be fair, when Beerus claimed Goku achieved Ultra Instinct before him, they mistook that form for the True Ultra Instinct. It was only after Goku lost the form, that Whis realized and observed that form was only the Sign. So, it seems plausible that Beerus was implying he can’t use the True Ultra Instinct, but we don’t know what exactly he uses, it could be the Sign state or not. I don’t think we have enough info on that.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:38 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 9:20 am To be fair, when Beerus claimed Goku achieved Ultra Instinct before him, they mistook that form for the True Ultra Instinct. It was only after Goku lost the form, that Whis realized and observed that form was only the Sign. So, it seems plausible that Beerus was implying he can’t use the True Ultra Instinct, but we don’t know what exactly he uses, it could be the Sign state or not. I don’t think we have enough info on that.
Eh, while that's vaguely possible, I think further material has shut down this line of interpretation as well - Whis demonstrates strong understanding of how the Omen and True stages of Ultra Instinct relate and what they do, and what their relevant characteristics are (Chapters 59-60). So I'd say it's highly unlikely that Whis is mistaking anything here - after all, Omen is still Ultra Instinct, but it's only the initial stage of the technique proper rather than its full manifestation.

Either way, it seems to me that 'Ultra Instinct' as such, whatever the stages to it, is so far depicted as beyond what Beerus can currently do.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:07 am

While I agree that Whis understands how Ultra Instinct functions, he never had witnessed how it looked like on Goku. So, it was only after seeing how unstable Goku was that he assumed Goku achieved the Sign state, not the completed version.

Anyway, while there are strong implications that Beerus can’t use even the Sign state, like Goku does for most of Moro Arc, I admit his performance on the exhibition match is arguably better than Goku’s very first time against Jiren. So, I can see why some believe he is capable of mustering at least a little bit of Ultra Instinct. I wouldn’t compare his usage with Roshi, for example. He is likely closer to Goku.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:40 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:07 am While I agree that Whis understands how Ultra Instinct functions, he never had witnessed how it looked like on Goku. So, it was only after seeing how unstable Goku was that he assumed Goku achieved the Sign state, not the completed version.
On the other hand, Beerus says two Chapters on from here that all the Gods would know True Ultra Instinct "at a glance". And again, it's worth bearing in mind that Omen Ultra Instinct is still Ultra Instinct proper (as in, it is actually the technique, rather than just something similar). To me, this seems to strengthen the sense of where Beerus stands on the Ultra Instinct-Not Ultra Instinct dichotomy (that is, firmly in the "not" category).
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:07 amAnyway, while there are strong implications that Beerus can’t use even the Sign state, like Goku does for most of Moro Arc, I admit his performance on the exhibition match is arguably better than Goku’s very first time against Jiren. So, I can see why some believe he is capable of mustering at least a little bit of Ultra Instinct. I wouldn’t compare his usage with Roshi, for example. He is likely closer to Goku.
I agree that Beerus does what he does pretty effectively (though arguably, Goku is less effective just because he falls out of the technique almost immediately), and I'm certainly open to the idea that he's further along than Roshi - but I'd still say that the comparison is instructive when the specific question of how far Beerus has progressed is in view - one could maybe say he's more like Goku in degree of refinement (as in, closer to Goku than he is to Roshi, who may be rather more rudimentary in his wielding), but he still seems more like Roshi in basic character (as in, using the principles, but not the actual technique).

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Jack Bz » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:57 am

I think Omen was a better manifestation of ultra instinct than anything Beerus managed to pull off for sure. I mean, was Roshi using omen too? I don't think so.

We saw with Moro's fur changing colour that using ultra instinct causes a physical change in appearance for other users, not just saiyans. Beerus doesn't get any silver eyes like Goku when he uses his proto UI. I think that's another decent piece of evidence.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sat Feb 27, 2021 11:10 am

Jack Bz wrote: Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:57 amBeerus doesn't get any silver eyes like Goku when he uses his proto UI. I think that's another decent piece of evidence.
That aspect is perhaps not wholly determinative - we'll have to wait for the coloured manga, but it seems that Moro's eyes don't turn silver, either, despite the fact that he is certainly wielding True Ultra Instinct. The screentone shading in his irises doesn't change in the black-and-white manga - if they turned silver, one might expect them just to be white, like Goku's; might be just a goof, but I actually quite like that, if it's a deliberate choice - it goes towards the idea that Moro fundamentally never changes.

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Re: It’s possible for Vegeta to attain UI Omen aswell in the future..

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Feb 27, 2021 12:43 pm

MagnificentPonta covered pretty much everything I could have said about this. Using the "Omen" form is still using the Ultra Instinct (as opposed to the Beerus and Roshi demonstrations, which are more like using the principles than the technique itself), and all Gods immediately recognized the true state of the UI, so they certainly knew that the first form used against Jiren was not the definitive one.

But speaking more specifically about the theme of this thread, I don't think it would make much sense for Vegeta to obtain the Omen form. Merus said that this state is merely the gateway to the UI, unstable and expending a big amount of energy. Whatever Vegeta learns is supposed to be his answer to the Mastered Ultra Instinct used by Goku and on top of this is exactly the opposite of the principles of this technique. It probably won't be useful and conflicts with the path he's following

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