The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:27 am

batistabus wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:20 pm
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:38 am If we only had Toyo's verson of Goku black.....he would not have been the iconic villian he is now, samething with Jiren.
Toyo's Goku Black actually seems like Zamasu. The anime's take (aside from Nozawa's awesome performance) is overdone.

Like Kale, Jiren is single-handedly redeemed by the manga. He's much more sympathetic, acts like an actual hero, and doesn't waste everyone's time.
And Goku Black losing his cool like a classic villian is not overdone? Him getting beat by Vegeta the prince of Ls in his first fight( Zamasu had too heal him) and his second fight is somehow good for the character? :lol:, this is Dragon Ball, a series about fighting, præsentation matters and Goku Black and Zamasu looked like chumps.

And Jiren is such a great hero, look at how he save his teammates in the manga from geting
eliminated(he did not want too save Dyspo and Toppo from elimination)......and getting blocked by ROSHI, what a great way too make your antagonist look like a threat :problem:.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:35 am

batistabus wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:20 pm
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 4:38 am If we only had Toyo's verson of Goku black.....he would not have been the iconic villian he is now, samething with Jiren.
Toyo's Goku Black actually seems like Zamasu. The anime's take (aside from Nozawa's awesome performance) is overdone.

Like Kale, Jiren is single-handedly redeemed by the manga. He's much more sympathetic, acts like an actual hero, and doesn't waste everyone's time.
And Zamasu himself is "overdone", in the sense that he's very vainglorious and prideful. Black in the manga is too brutish and savage, he lacks the elegance and beauty that he has in the anime. All those beautiful and refined techniques he has in the anime, like the Divine Lasso, are lacking in the manga. In the manga he just uses fists and brute strength. That doesn't fit the elegance and beauty of Zamasu himself.

In fact Black in the manga doesn't even have any unique technique... at least Fused Zamasu used the portals technique and the Katchin blocks technique. Black? He has no unique technique whatsoever, completely barebones portrayal of the character.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by batistabus » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:11 pm

Your avatars make me feel like I'm fighting the real Jiren and Zamasu! I guess that makes me Jaco...as a Super Elite, I cannot back down!!
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:27 amAnd Jiren is such a great hero, look at how he save his teammates in the manga from geting eliminated (he did not want too save Dyspo and Toppo from elimination)......and getting blocked by ROSHI, what a great way too make your antagonist look like a threat
In the manga, we actually see Jiren save the day as a super hero, and he doesn't even kill the monster. He doesn't "save" his teammates because he thinks they'll just get in his way (which is partially true), and he thinks he can save them all on his own. The Kame-sen'nin bit ties in perfectly with the idea that Migatte no Gokui is about more than just brawn, which the anime barely even attempts, and Jiren is dealt zero damage.

Manga Jiren is a sad hero with a selfish wish. Anime Jiren is an egomaniac. He meditates for half of the tournament. He lashes out and attacks innocent bystanders. His backstory is completely detached from the Jiren leading up to that moment and barely ties in with the finale.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:35 am And Zamasu himself is "overdone", in the sense that he's very vainglorious and prideful. Black in the manga is too brutish and savage, he lacks the elegance and beauty that he has in the anime. All those beautiful and refined techniques he has in the anime, like the Divine Lasso, are lacking in the manga. In the manga he just uses fists and brute strength. That doesn't fit the elegance and beauty of Zamasu himself.
He's "overdone" in the way that Jared Leto's Joker is overdone. They're trying too hard to make him sinister and glorious. Why does he talk about his opponents as food? It's just creepy and has nothing to do with Zamasu. Is that meant to play on Goku's hunger? I just find it cringy. Sorry if you like that, but since you didn't mention it, I figured I would.

I don't find the manga's take to be overly brutish or savage. His techniques fit a Kaio(shin) in Goku's body.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:35 amIn fact Black in the manga doesn't even have any unique technique... at least Fused Zamasu used the portals technique and the Katchin blocks technique. Black? He has no unique technique whatsoever, completely barebones portrayal of the character.
Why should he have a unique technique? He has Goku's abilities because he stole Goku's body. Why does anime Merged Zamasu summon a giant bird for no reason? Gotenks makes up attacks, but they're played for laughs, and he's just a kid having fun.
Jiren The Alpha wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:27 am And Goku Black losing his cool like a classic villian is not overdone? Him getting beat by Vegeta the prince of Ls in his first fight( Zamasu had too heal him) and his second fight is somehow good for the character? :lol:, this is Dragon Ball, a series about fighting, præsentation matters and Goku Black and Zamasu looked like chumps.

Do Black and Zamasu not lose their cools in the anime? Having Vegeta initially beat Black makes Trunks' plan make sense; Black is a character that Trunks could not beat (even though he fights almost as equals in the anime at some point) but Vegeta and Goku could (based on his knowledge at the time). The only thing that prevents Vegeta's victory is the team-up of both Zamasu's, which is better implemented/explained in the manga, and could not have been predicted by Trunks. Black and Zamasu both play to their unique strengths. I prefer that over the meaningless flashiness of the anime.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by FrioPolar » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:41 am

I especially appreciate that he doesn't make Goku as stupid as Toei does.

During the Future Trunks arc, Goku in the manga most of the time looked like a completely different character from the anime.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:16 am

batistabus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:11 pm He's "overdone" in the way that Jared Leto's Joker is overdone. They're trying too hard to make him sinister and glorious. Why does he talk about his opponents as food? It's just creepy and has nothing to do with Zamasu. Is that meant to play on Goku's hunger? I just find it cringy. Sorry if you like that, but since you didn't mention it, I figured I would.

I don't find the manga's take to be overly brutish or savage. His techniques fit a Kaio(shin) in Goku's body.
Zamasu is creepy, so I don't know what the problem here is. It makes sense that Zamasu would bring the creepiness to the next level by referring to his enemies as food to consume.

What techniques? Black doesn't even throw around any unique technique aside from a bunch of random ki blasts and using sword slashes a few times... He didn't even use Telepathic techniques, that was Immortal Zamasu. Black in the manga has 0 personality.
batistabus wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:11 pm Why should he have a unique technique? He has Goku's abilities because he stole Goku's body. Why does anime Merged Zamasu summon a giant bird for no reason? Gotenks makes up attacks, but they're played for laughs, and he's just a kid having fun.
Because it makes for a more entertaining character, it's simple. Ask yourself why the videogames never use Black's or Zamasu's manga moveset, there it is.

A character with 5 unique techniques is more entertaining to watch than a character with 1 unique technique. And even if they don't make sense, why does it matter? This is a show with talking cats and dogs, not everything has to make sense.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 06, 2021 8:25 am

I don't think there's anything creepy at all with the appetizer line, or required to be scrutinized much.
It's just something a psychopath would say to someone who is there just to be a warm up, it doesn't have to pertain to food either, it can also be a drink, and we know how Zamasu spent most of his kaioshin training serving drinks to Gowasu, if one wants to make some in-universe connection...

It works, it makes Black look less of a typical 2D villain with run-of-the-mill comments and makes him look more like a man of the world. The audience can actually relate to his trolling.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:28 am

If there's one aspect of manga Black I prefer, it's that he feels more distinctive from his Zamasu identity and he's supremely dominant in the relationship to his future counterpart. In the anime, the minute Future Zamasu appears out of the woodwork, Goku Black starts to fade into this interchangeable tag team dynamic. It makes sense since, well, he is Zamasu, but he loses that sense of intrigue and individuality. Further, manga Black is genuinely terrifying in a way that even the greatest villains of the past can't match. There's a reason that the manga panel of Black's first Super Saiyan Rosé transformation is iconic enough to have action figures made of it.

Image

That said, manga Black critically lacks his anime self's charisma and comes off as less of a threat due to how easily he loses his cool, in typical Dragon Ball Z supervillain fashion. Anime Black never loses his composure, which is actually super refreshing. Seeing elements of Freeza's flamboyant aristocratic class emanating out of Goku's body, with Masako Nozawa's deliciously evil performance, is joyously disturbing. Him referring to Vegeta as an "appetiser" and so on helped to give Black that worldliness, I agree. Nozawa seriously knocked it out of the park with Black, I still can't get over how good it was.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:38 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:16 am
What techniques? Black doesn't even throw around any unique technique aside from a bunch of random ki blasts and using sword slashes a few times... He didn't even use Telepathic techniques, that was Immortal Zamasu. Black in the manga has 0 personality.
Actually, in the manga Black indeed uses Zamasu / Kaioshin techniques.


Which in this case is telekinesis, used by Shin to paralyze Gohan in the 24th Tenkaichi Budokai and used by Zamasu (immortal) to paralyze Goku in chapter 20.


In fact, I think this is the only instance where either of the two versions of Black uses a technique derived from Zamasu / his former version as Kaioshin's apprentice.

Except for this, manga and anime Black pretty much share the same techniques (Instant transmission, Kamehameha and Ki sword). Manga Black just doesn't have the scythe variation

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:38 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:16 am
What techniques? Black doesn't even throw around any unique technique aside from a bunch of random ki blasts and using sword slashes a few times... He didn't even use Telepathic techniques, that was Immortal Zamasu. Black in the manga has 0 personality.
Actually, in the manga Black indeed uses Zamasu / Kaioshin techniques.


Which in this case is telekinesis, used by Shin to paralyze Gohan in the 24th Tenkaichi Budokai and used by Zamasu (immortal) to paralyze Goku in chapter 20.


In fact, I think this is the only instance where either of the two versions of Black uses a technique derived from Zamasu / his former version as Kaioshin's apprentice.

Except for this, manga and anime Black pretty much share the same techniques (Instant transmission, Kamehameha and Ki sword). Manga Black just doesn't have the scythe variation
Still not a unique technique, since it can be used by anyone... it's not even unique to the Kais. Cell used it to create his arena for example. It's such a basic technique that anyone can learn it. Meanwhile Divine Lasso and Sickle of Sorrow are absolutely unique techniques of Black that give him a lot more personality and, unsurprisingly, are at the core of his gameplay in the videogames where he's playable (Xenoverse 2, Fighterz...). Black didn't even use Rosé Kamehameha in the manga, while in the anime he utilized it in a clever way in conjunction with Zamasu (Zamasu would exploit his immortality to hold the fodders in place so that Black may hit them with Rose Kamehameha for maximum damage).

Black is all around funnier and more entertaining to watch in the anime. He's more savage too honestly, like when he called Vegeta a stupid appetizer that should learn his place. The manga portrayal is, simply put, more forgettable, more basic, and far less iconic. I have nothing more to say on the subject.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:28 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 am
Still not a unique technique, since it can be used by anyone...
Not saying that. I am specifically pointing out the techniques he has in the manga, which is pretty much almost the same as the ones he uses in the anime except for one of the techniques derived from his former self (after all, he stole Goku's body) and the scythe.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 am Divine Lasso and Rosé Kamehameha
Sorry, but you know these are just fancy names for the same techniques, right? '' Rosé Kamehameha '' is merely Kamehameha (which in the anime has a different coloring), and '' Divine Lasso '' is just a use of his Ki sword.

This is no different from games giving several different names to techniques that, in some cases, are normal or essentially just generic Ki Blasts.
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:52 am Black is all around funnier and more entertaining to watch in the anime. He's more savage too honestly, like when he called Vegeta a stupid appetizer that should learn his place. The manga portrayal is, simply put, more forgettable, more basic, and far less iconic. I have nothing more to say on the subject.
I'm not arguing any of that, you don't have to be overly defensive about everything
LoganForkHands73 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:28 am If there's one aspect of manga Black I prefer, it's that he feels more distinctive from his Zamasu identity and he's supremely dominant in the relationship to his future counterpart. In the anime, the minute Future Zamasu appears out of the woodwork, Goku Black starts to fade into this interchangeable tag team dynamic. It makes sense since, well, he is Zamasu, but he loses that sense of intrigue and individuality. Further, manga Black is genuinely terrifying in a way that even the greatest villains of the past can't match. There's a reason that the manga panel of Black's first Super Saiyan Rosé transformation is iconic enough to have action figures made of it.
I honestly think it is the opposite. In the manga, Black looks more like Zamasu, both lose their cool when their plan is about to fail (Black in the first fight against Vegeta and Zamasu facing Goku) and Black actually uses a technique derived from his time as Kaioshin's apprentice.

In the anime, after mimicking Goku's movements, Black starts to look more like him. Although he keeps the same speeches of Zamasu, he seems to be fascinated with the body of a Saiyan, he enjoys the pain and the appearances of enemies with a higher level of strength that lead him to become stronger as well, just like the Saiyans.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:48 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:28 am
In the anime, after mimicking Goku's movements, Black starts to look more like him. Although he keeps the same speeches of Zamasu, he seems to be fascinated with the body of a Saiyan, he enjoys the pain and the appearances of enemies with a higher level of strength that lead him to become stronger as well, just like the Saiyans.
Something I noticed is that anime Black becomes slowly an evil Goku. Manga Black remains an evil guy that looks like Goku, but in the anime he thrives on the fight, relishes on getting stronger, like a true saiyan, like what Goku could've been like if he didn't hit his head. I prefer the evil Goku over another Zamasu in a different body.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:36 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:28 am Sorry, but you know these are just fancy names for the same techniques, right? '' Rosé Kamehameha '' is merely Kamehameha (which in the anime has a different coloring), and '' Divine Lasso '' is just a use of his Ki sword.

This is no different from games giving several different names to techniques that, in some cases, are normal or essentially just generic Ki Blasts.
Following that logic then Kamehameha or the Genkidama can be reduced to different uses of the same Ki-based technique.

Divine Lasso uses the Blade technique as basis, but it is clearly a technique of its own available only to Black, and consists of the user performing a certain dance, launching a set of projectiles against the enemy, and causing said projectiles to explode upon touching the target. Reducing it to just a different application of the Blade technique is disingenuous, let's be real. The videogames even treat it as a different and special technique.

As for the Rosé Kamehameha, again it was a variation available only to Black that was very cool to see. It's a shame that Black never used it in the manga. That's my opinion on the matter.
I'm not arguing any of that, you don't have to be overly defensive about everything
Expressing my opinion is not being "overly defensive".

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:38 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:16 am
What techniques? Black doesn't even throw around any unique technique aside from a bunch of random ki blasts and using sword slashes a few times... He didn't even use Telepathic techniques, that was Immortal Zamasu. Black in the manga has 0 personality.
Actually, in the manga Black indeed uses Zamasu / Kaioshin techniques.


Which in this case is telekinesis, used by Shin to paralyze Gohan in the 24th Tenkaichi Budokai and used by Zamasu (immortal) to paralyze Goku in chapter 20.


In fact, I think this is the only instance where either of the two versions of Black uses a technique derived from Zamasu / his former version as Kaioshin's apprentice.

Except for this, manga and anime Black pretty much share the same techniques (Instant transmission, Kamehameha and Ki sword). Manga Black just doesn't have the scythe variation
But wait, didn't Zamasu said Black traded his "divine abilities" for a "stronger body"?

So what Black did couldn't be the same as Zamasu. Indeed, Black was shown using ki, so it's more akin to Muten Roshi's Bankoku Bikkuri Shō or even the God Bind. Ki-based techniques, not true telekinesis.

Otherwise Toyo contradicted himself in his own chapter haha

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:36 pm

Thani wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:38 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:16 am
What techniques? Black doesn't even throw around any unique technique aside from a bunch of random ki blasts and using sword slashes a few times... He didn't even use Telepathic techniques, that was Immortal Zamasu. Black in the manga has 0 personality.
Actually, in the manga Black indeed uses Zamasu / Kaioshin techniques.


Which in this case is telekinesis, used by Shin to paralyze Gohan in the 24th Tenkaichi Budokai and used by Zamasu (immortal) to paralyze Goku in chapter 20.


In fact, I think this is the only instance where either of the two versions of Black uses a technique derived from Zamasu / his former version as Kaioshin's apprentice.

Except for this, manga and anime Black pretty much share the same techniques (Instant transmission, Kamehameha and Ki sword). Manga Black just doesn't have the scythe variation
But wait, didn't Zamasu said Black traded his "divine abilities" for a "stronger body"?

So what Black did couldn't be the same as Zamasu. Indeed, Black was shown using ki, so it's more akin to Muten Roshi's Bankoku Bikkuri Shō or even the God Bind. Ki-based techniques, not true telekinesis.

Otherwise Toyo contradicted himself in his own chapter haha
Wouldn't be a first for Toyo.

:lol:

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:38 pm

Thani wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm
But wait, didn't Zamasu said Black traded his "divine abilities" for a "stronger body"?

Otherwise Toyo contradicted himself in his own chapter haha
Zamasu mentions that he would have lost "the abilities granted by my status as a God".

As Shin mentioned later, the healing power is granted to those who are Kaioshin's apprentices (Zamasu)


And as we have seen, Black indeed lost that power after switching bodies with Goku, which is why he went to seek help from Future Zamasu (who could restore his body and make him benefit from the zenkai)

So, as far as we know, only abilities derived from Zamasu's status as an apprentice have been lost. Telekinesis and Ki sword were techniques that Zamasu already knew (and we saw him use both)


So I assume that Black retained the techniques he already knew from his previous body (just like Ginyu could use body change while in Goku's body, for example), but he lost his divine abilities

Thani wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm So what Black did couldn't be the same as Zamasu. Indeed, Black was shown using ki, so it's more akin to Muten Roshi's Bankoku Bikkuri Shō or even the God Bind. Ki-based techniques, not true telekinesis.
I thought about it too, but Roshi's technique actually did damage while being used (really as an electric shock), while what Black used only seemed to paralyze Vegeta and Trunks (in the case of Trunks, Black used this technique to throw him through buildings)

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:03 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:38 pm
Thani wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm
But wait, didn't Zamasu said Black traded his "divine abilities" for a "stronger body"?

Otherwise Toyo contradicted himself in his own chapter haha
Zamasu mentions that he would have lost "the abilities granted by my status as a God".

As Shin mentioned later, the healing power is granted to those who are Kaioshin's apprentices (Zamasu)


And as we have seen, Black indeed lost that power after switching bodies with Goku, which is why he went to seek help from Future Zamasu (who could restore his body and make him benefit from the zenkai)

So, as far as we know, only abilities derived from Zamasu's status as an apprentice have been lost. Telekinesis and Ki sword were techniques that Zamasu already knew (and we saw him use both)


So I assume that Black retained the techniques he already knew from his previous body (just like Ginyu could use body change while in Goku's body, for example), but he lost his divine abilities

Thani wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:07 pm So what Black did couldn't be the same as Zamasu. Indeed, Black was shown using ki, so it's more akin to Muten Roshi's Bankoku Bikkuri Shō or even the God Bind. Ki-based techniques, not true telekinesis.
I thought about it too, but Roshi's technique actually did damage while being used (really as an electric shock), while what Black used only seemed to paralyze Vegeta and Trunks (in the case of Trunks, Black used this technique to throw him through buildings)
But you see, in your own scans, when Zamasu does it you don't actually see the ki, whereas in Black's case its showcased that there's a ki connection that he controls with his own movements.

I do think it's more of a "God Bind" variant than true telekinesis.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by pepd » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:42 pm

Thani wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:03 pm
I do think it's more of a "God Bind" variant than true telekinesis.
Maybe in the sense that kaioshins usually use that technique, but not necessarily as a god exclusive technique. We saw Zamasu heal Black, teleport zensus to his hand, use kaikai and conjure the Time Rings. If this one has a fitting and supported explanation, why ignore it.

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