The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:34 pm

I’ve been meaning to make this thread for some time now.. So here goes!

So far, I have been pleasantly surprised by his overall performance.. And while he certainly isn’t perfect and makes mistakes from time to time.. By and large, the dude is an all around superior writer than Toriyama..

Toriyama is only a superior artist that’s all.

Toyotaro is better for a couple of reasons in my opinion.

1. Consistency.

2. Fanservice.


I think it goes without explaining that Toyotaro is far more consistent in the writing department then Toriyama is.. The main reason for that is his younger age.. (and maybe his overall personality aswell!), and as a result of these two things, Toyotaro is FAR less forgetful than Toriyama! It’s really Toriyama’s lack of proper memory that’s to blame here.. (I also think he actually DOESN’T CARE about consistency to be honest!) But hey, that’s my take on it at least! xD

Unlike Toriyama, Toyotaro doesn’t make shit up on the spot to satisfy an interviewer’s question and he actually BOTHERS to not only re-read the original Dragon Ball Manga regularly.. But he occasionally dives in the old Guidebooks aswell! Hence why we get these consistent ages and timelines.. (Moro being 10 million years old, the Kaioshin being 5 Million years old.) As opposed to Toriyama’s incredibly stupid (75.000 years old bs), I’m sure he has the Kaioshin confused with the regular Kaio’s, who’s lifespan DOES only consist of 75.000 years max! As Herms said plain and clear: “Toyotaro sure knows his DB lore, like an old school fanboy!”

The second part: Fanservice.

And when I talk about fanservice, I actually mean ME, MYSELF, and I!

He delivers ME what I want..

You see, I have very specific demands.. And Toyotaro just managed to do the impossible, and make me a very happy and satisfied fanboy..!

The examples being:

CONFIRMING Ultra Instinct Sign and above to have Godly Ki.. Giving Vegeta Beerus’ destruction powers, introducing the concept of Spirit Control for Vegeta, which is an actual POTENTIAL UNLOCK for him! Actually managing to get the timelines and ages right! Resulting in Kaioshin getting his proper age as is the way it should be.. Etc etc.

These are just a FEW examples..

And although he still leaves many things left unexplained.. He sure as hell is willing to explain a lot more than Toriyama, Toei, and the rest of the gang!

I also like his many callbacks and tidbits to the original manga! (I know many fans don’t.) But overall, I DO, love it.

So yeah, all in all, I definitely am of the opinion that Toyotaro is a better writer than Toriyama.. And he’s certainly more than qualified and deserving of the job!

What do you think???
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:06 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:36 pm

He's damn awesome and saved Super for me. I love how he writes similar to how the original manga is compared to Toei. And his fight scenes are far more impactful and engaging.
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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Sani007 » Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:30 pm

Akira Toriyama is the god of shounen manga. A completely different league.
But I really like Toyotaro’s manga.
His work is better than any other Dragon Ball. (except Toriyama's manga, of course)

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Trouser » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:26 pm

After reading his AF fanmanga I know he was willing to give some "shine time" to other heroes like Trunks and Goten (even Bra and Pan were serious in their training!). And they weren't fodder like human fighters (they should't fight anymore, it's painful to watch them humiliated again and again).
His art is good (especially in battles) but I hate the way he draws "casual not serious" Goku. He looks sometimes so dumb and... ugly.

His manga, DBS manga, was only thing I really liked from modern DB. Until Torunament of Power... Then Moro... Ugh! I'm hoping Granolah Arc will be better (not good, but better... the expectation bar is set very low).

I can't forgive him one thing... That Roshi vs Jiren scene. So stupid. So stupid that it made me regret preordering DBS manga.

edit:
His art is overall nice (except sometimes stupid looking Goku) and it's fun to look at his pictures, but I think Dragon Garow Lee and Fenyo_n are better artists than Toyotarou.

Well... At the end of the day... His work is better than that awful anime, so here is the praise and appreciation.
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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Zephyr » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:53 pm

But is he funnier?

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:01 pm

This is very difficult conclusion to make, as DBS writing is a collaboration between Toriyama, Toyotaro and V-jumps editor.
We don't exactly know for certain exactly what ideas are his.
At the end even Toriyamas name is still on the cover as DBS lead writer.

But even then, i don't think the DBS manga, generally speaking, really is on pair with the original in terms of writing.
So i appreciate his work in a sense, it's readable and his artwork stands out at times, but what i have seen in Super does not equal Toriyama in his prime for me.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by batistabus » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:16 pm

I think the only thing Toyotaro surpasses Toriyama in at the moment is enthusiasm to draw Dragon Ball. That's not nothing, but let's not overstate his abilities, especially compared to a manga god.

That said, Toyotaro is the best non-Toriyama Dragon Ball writer to ever touch the series. He stands above all writers on the anime staff and other side-story manga. He understands the characters and tone; it's rare for a writer to nail one, but they almost never nail both. He's not the most accurate to Toriyama's visual style, and he's not the best artist in his own right, but he's a great cartoonist, and his art is brimming with energy. If it weren't for his manga, I would have checked out on Super years ago, and I'm not sure any of the other promoted-fan-manga-candidates could've done anywhere near as good a job.

Based on the Moro arc, which I liked, I don't think he's quite ready to helm DB without Toriyama. But if someone must take over some day, I'm confident he's the right choice.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Matches Malone » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:20 pm

Better writer than Toriyama ? Comments like this are exactly why it is so hard for me to take the super fan base seriously, and why I call most of you fanboys. Don't you realize that the Shonen genre we are familiar with today is very heavily influenced by Toriyama and his original manga ? Or that some of the big name Mangaka today were inspired by him and his manga to get into such a profession ? If a list of the most important mangaka in the industry were to be put together (by someone who knows how the industry works), Toriyama easily makes it into the top 10, while Toyotaro wouldn't make it in at all.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by batistabus » Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:34 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:34 pm Toyotaro is better for a couple of reasons in my opinion.

1. Consistency.

2. Fanservice.
I don't think these things necessarily make for a better story. Sure, hardcore fans get annoyed when things aren't consistent, but consistency does not equal a good story. Creating an official, set-in-stone scientific universe was never Toriyama's priority. I feel the series would lose something if a Star Wars/GoT/Marvel-style canon authority were prioritized over creativity, fun, endless "I meant to do that all along (wink)" retcons, and the writing-by-the-seat-of-his-pants feel.
Mister_Popo wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:01 pm This is very difficult conclusion to make, as DBS writing is a collaboration between Toriyama, Toyotaro and V-jumps editor.
We don't exactly know for certain exactly what ideas are his.
I see that as a compliment to Toyotaro!

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by PremiumSalt » Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:50 pm

I may have a few issues with him, but when he inevitably fully takes the reigns, I'll be alright with it, which is more than I would've said a couple years ago. His work feels more like "Dragon Ball" than virtually any other non-Toriyama writer who has taken a swing at it.
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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Cipher » Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:05 pm

batistabus wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:16 pm I think the only thing Toyotaro surpasses Toriyama in at the moment is enthusiasm to draw Dragon Ball. That's not nothing, but let's not overstate his abilities, especially compared to a manga god.

That said, Toyotaro is the best non-Toriyama Dragon Ball writer to ever touch the series. He stands above all writers on the anime staff and other side-story manga. He understands the characters and tone; it's rare for a writer to nail one, but they almost never nail both. He's not the most accurate to Toriyama's visual style, and he's not the best artist in his own right, but he's a great cartoonist, and his art is brimming with energy. If it weren't for his manga, I would have checked out on Super years ago, and I'm not sure any of the other promoted-fan-manga-candidates could've done anywhere near as good a job.

Based on the Moro arc, which I liked, I don't think he's quite ready to helm DB without Toriyama. But if someone must take over some day, I'm confident he's the right choice.
Seconding most of this. Especially the bolded sentence, for as much as his art becomes a topic of discussion, and for as much as he's compared to other Toriyama imitators.

His comics craft also still has some room to grow, but he's absolutely not below professional industry par as some like to claim. Super is a more-than-servicable-looking book, more than serviceably emulative of Dragon Ball, and Toyotaro has managed to consistently hold himself to a punishing 45-pages-per-month schedule with the addition of Super's extra workflow steps (Toriyama checks) that mandate more complete storyboards faster. For the craft shortcomings I might point out, he also has some unique elements to his style I enjoy, and undoubtedly a sense of personal energy, which is worth a lot.

For everything else? Yes, I think he understands the characters and basic tone of the world more than most other imitators or anime writers we've seen. That isn't to put down other fan-to-professional-artists like Ooishi--what she might have done in his same place, we can't know. But that hypothetical also does a disservice to the job he's done, which I like. When reading Super, I feel like I'm reading a sequel to DB, even if the shift in artist/author is clear. As an artist/writer overall, even AF, his roughest work, is indicative of some of the strengths Super would come to have, as it delights in dry, DB-esque jokes for its first twenty pages before even providing a drop of the fanservice action you'd think it would have been quicker to sell itself on. And when he gets to said action fanservice, it's tinged with unexpected, quirky takes on the elements he's adapting like making Xicor a kind of petulant child.

If we're talking about areas in which he exceeds Toriyama ... I mean, I don't think that's really fair, although I might go so far as to put some of the very best bits of DBS' action over some of the very lowest (Cell arc) bits of DB's (without being too hyperbolic). If one did want to give him kudos in one area to that extent though, you could probably argue that it's in thematic coherence. It's also not quite fair, since Toriyama was writing week to week and Toyotaro has the benefit of sleeping on Toriyama's initial plot outlines, or more recently their joint ideatition meetings, and finding the focus of the story--and Super's more compact arcs are mostly in a different mode to those of the original series--but he's quite good at finding those focuses and brining them out. The way he spins what seem to have been the fairly spartan plot points of the ToP into a thematically coherent, tight narrative is pretty impressive, and part of why I like that arc so much in the manga. There are also smaller examples like his spinning Vegeta's loss to Hit into a character beat (when it appears to not have been explicitly outlined as one), with his knowingly reducing his chances in the next match in order to motivate Cabba, and little bits like that throughout the series show a constant commitment to asking what each plot beat could mean on a story-telling level for either the characters or the arc.

Is it a little too careful for DB, even? I ... don't think so, especially given the different way DBS' arcs function (they're mostly more compact and need those solid cores), but I wanted to give lip service to the idea lest it seem like I'm holding DB to not having the devil-may-care attitude that is part of the original series' fun.

On the flipside of that, Toyotaro is not a better dialogue- or character-writer than Toriyama, but again--Toriyama's an unfair standard on most fronts, and Toyotaro is convincingly close on a scripting front in terms in everything except maybe bubble-to-bubble dialogue in terms of helming a sequel.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:08 am

I think what gives Toyotaro the edge over Toei and Toriyama is he is a lot more consistent with how he portrays the characters and their power scaling. It's honestly very refreshing. Especially with Master Roshi with what he did with Jiren was one of the most brilliant moments in the entire series. About time Roshi got the respect he deserves.

Another awesome thing about Toyotaro is he doesn't make Roshi a rapist like Toei and Toriyama do. Props for handling women great Toyo.
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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:13 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:08 amAnother awesome thing about Toyotaro is he doesn't make Roshi a rapist like Toei and Toriyama do. Props for handling women great Toyo.
I think he did in one of the tournament's chapters. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure someone mentioned this in another topic.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:20 am

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:13 am
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:08 amAnother awesome thing about Toyotaro is he doesn't make Roshi a rapist like Toei and Toriyama do. Props for handling women great Toyo.
I think he did in one of the tournament's chapters. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure someone mentioned this in another topic.
I mentioned in another topic that he did in the anime. This is the manga.
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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Matches Malone » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:24 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:20 amI mentioned in another topic that he did in the anime. This is the manga.
I haven't read that arc in awhile, so maybe I'm mixing things up, but I'm pretty sure there was something similar int he manga.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:36 am

Matches Malone wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:24 am
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:20 amI mentioned in another topic that he did in the anime. This is the manga.
I haven't read that arc in awhile, so maybe I'm mixing things up, but I'm pretty sure there was something similar int he manga.
I just reread ToP. There's nothing like that in it at all.
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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:01 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:08 am Another awesome thing about Toyotaro is he doesn't make Roshi a rapist like Toei and Toriyama do. Props for handling women great Toyo.
He has Roshi trying to rape the 3 girls on Moro's gang in chapter 50-something. His 'lust' wears off when the girls fuse into a fat girl and he no longer feels attracted to her.

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by UltraInstinctRorikon » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:23 am

Koitsukai wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:01 am
UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:08 am Another awesome thing about Toyotaro is he doesn't make Roshi a rapist like Toei and Toriyama do. Props for handling women great Toyo.
He has Roshi trying to rape the 3 girls on Moro's gang in chapter 50-something. His 'lust' wears off when the girls fuse into a fat girl and he no longer feels attracted to her.
I've only read up to ToP. That's a let down. Smh.
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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Jiren The Alpha » Fri Mar 12, 2021 11:29 am

UltraInstinctRorikon wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:08 am I think what gives Toyotaro the edge over Toei and Toriyama is he is a lot more consistent with how he portrays the characters and their power scaling. It's honestly very refreshing. Especially with Master Roshi with what he did with Jiren was one of the most brilliant moments in the entire series. About time Roshi got the respect he deserves.

Another awesome thing about Toyotaro is he doesn't make Roshi a rapist like Toei and Toriyama do. Props for handling women great Toyo.


Did he not try to grab those 3 girls in the Moro arc?

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Re: The Toyotaro Appreciation Thread! (I think he’s a much better writer than Toriyama!)

Post by Cipher » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:11 pm

DBS Chapter 58 does indeed contain the sole instance of a Turtle Hermit sexual-harassment gag in the series. A shame. (At least we got through the ToP, where he plays a much more important role, without one.)

To put it in even larger context, I believe it’s the sole instance of anything like that across all three of Toyotaro’s DB works between AF, Victory Mission and Super.

I think it’s telling that when he had the reigns to create a ground-up cast in Victory Mission (some existing designs aside), he chose not to include a character with the pervert-master trope.

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