A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

[BWri]

Spoiler:

This is just the same as the larger Strength thread now, right...?

Re: Kefla and Gohan: I don’t think anything there is a huge stretch, given the presentation.

Kale is able to surprise Freeza and Goku, as well as Vegeta and Toppo, but all the dialogue ever tells us is that they think they could take her if they got serious. She’s up there in power, but not taking any of them 1:1, most likely, even if it wouldn’t be an effortless match for the Blue-level fighters.

Caulifla adding some power, but not an outrageous amount with the gap in strength, already has precedent in Zamasu, whose fused power is able to overwhelm Vegeta and Goku together whereas Black had just struggled with one, but still nowhere near Vegetto, the product of two fighters together both at that Super Saiyan Blue-level.

Gohan fighting Kefla to a draw then only requires a Gohan up in that SSB level of the hierarchy, and much dialogue is expended as he battles her as to his having grown further within the tournament and displaying the potential to surpass Goku if he ever committed himself entirely to martial arts in the same way.

I think the only thing slightly sketchy about it is where it would position Gohan and Freeza relative to one another, since it seems like the overall thrust is that Freeza is still #3 in Universe 7 by the end of the ToP, but that’s still possible, especially if, say, Freeza is up there with the perfected Blue characters, as Goku implies he is near the start of the arc.

If Kale is between God and Blue (or even up to initial Blue) — enough to deal with most of the competitors, enough to startle Freeza, Goku and the others, and enough to seriously jeopardize their chances of lasting out the tournament were they have to deal with her (remember, conserving energy is at the fore), Kefla and Gohan are between initial Blue and the perfected variant from the end of the Zamasu fight, and Goku, Vegeta and Freeza at full power are all one rung up from that, everything shakes out.

As far as the Potaras’ effects, we don’t even need to limit our precedents to Super. In the original series, Goku is concerned that fusing with Mr. Satan might actually make him weaker, and Kibito-Shin, while stronger than either apart, is still held to mostly be a liability in a serious fight with any of the forms of Boo populating they arc’s back half. I don’t even think one has to say that the level of increase Vegetto displays over Goku and Vegeta individually has to be some kind of exception. Rather, it’s our only case of seeing two fighters of relatively equal power (minus Goku’s extra form) combining—hence a greater disparity between the end result and either of the individual fusees; all the other examples are petty lopsided.

The only thing that sets you up for problems is being overly literal with an idea of strict multiplication, but if that were the case, frankly Kibito-Shin should already have been kicking all kinds of ass, and it’s kind of an unwieldy standard for the series to have to hold itself to. Even if you look at the Super anime, which seems to hold itself to stronger Potara fusions, there’s a lot that’s hard to make heads of tails of with Kale and Kefla’s respective performances against Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

I share your thought process on all of this. There are gulfs in the power tiers of SSB, CSSB and UI that are big enough to fit several other tiers into. Kefla and Gohan and fit comfortably in there somewhere. I completely forgot about the effects that power imbalance may have on a fusion. That alone could explain a lot.

[TheSaiyanGod]

There's a few clues to make Gohan = Kefla make sense. Kale herself doesn't scale up to the Full Power versions of Golden Frieza or SSB Goku for 1 as they both weren't treating her as a serious opponent (but I know that's too controversial for many of you to believe but the proof is there)

I don't think it needs to be controversial. Although the presentation may confuse some people, the statements make it clear where they fit into powerscaling. Golden Freeza says that he could defeat Kale if he fought seriously. Krillin says that Gohan could overcome Goku if he continued training (which means he was still weaker than him during ToP, which consequently already puts Kefla, Kale and Gohan himself at a level below the 3 strongest warriors in U7). And despite this being a power capable of putting some pressure on Blue tier characters, none of them openly acknowledges that they have surpassed that level.

And about fusion, it is stated that Kefla's movements were leagues above what they were doing pre-fusion and Kefla herself comments on having a lot of power. I believe that the power up was considerable but the gap between Kale and CSSB was greater than a merger with Caulifla (which had only the SSJ) could provide

[dragonball0900]

Guys, I think that Piccolo in terms of abilities and strategic fight is far better than C-17, that personally I find boring. Your statements are true, and in fact I admit that the comparison between Piccolo and C-17 was really hard to calculate. We have to consider that Piccolo trained with Gohan (far superior to SSJ 3), while C-17 at maximum could improve against Mini-Cells (that surely jijittunever used Zenkai to power up).

But the real fact is that C-17 has an infinite amount of energy, and probably training by training he's arriving to the point to exploit his powerup at maximum. But yes, If we speak about quality, cyborgs are less technical prepared even iff compared to Yamcha, Krillin and Tien who invented techniques to overcome their low power levels.

Even with infinite energy, it wasn't enough to outperform Piccolo against Saganbo. Both androids were useless against Saganbo, and were pushed aside, while Gohan and Piccolo kept fighting until the end. Goku's quote about them being "barely recognizable" is another way of telling it.

And Android 18 should be close to equal to Android 17's level. They both managed to impress Moro with their full power attack and both were able to scratch him. It wouldn't make sense for Android 18 to still be as weak as in the ToP if she was able to perform such feat.

That means, the order is that Gohan is the strongest of them, followed by Piccolo, then below is Android 17, with Android 18 being close to her brother.

[BWri]

I don't think it needs to be controversial. Although the presentation may confuse some people, the statements make it clear where they fit into powerscaling. Golden Freeza says that he could defeat Kale if he fought seriously. Krillin says that Gohan could overcome Goku if he continued training (which means he was still weaker than him during ToP, which consequently already puts Kefla, Kale and Gohan himself at a level below the 3 strongest warriors in U7). And despite this being a power capable of putting some pressure on Blue tier characters, none of them openly acknowledges that they have surpassed that level.

And about fusion, it is stated that Kefla's movements were leagues above what they were doing pre-fusion and Kefla herself comments on having a lot of power. I believe that the power up was considerable but the gap between Kale and CSSB was greater than a merger with Caulifla (which had only the SSJ) could provide

Right! But you'd be surprised how many people just don't pick up on those details. I believe the opinions you and I share are those of a tiny minority. Super's presentation can often lead to confusion or ambiguity.

[Nistarkail]

Guys, I think that Piccolo in terms of abilities and strategic fight is far better than C-17, that personally I find boring. Your statements are true, and in fact I admit that the comparison between Piccolo and C-17 was really hard to calculate. We have to consider that Piccolo trained with Gohan (far superior to SSJ 3), while C-17 at maximum could improve against Mini-Cells (that surely jijittunever used Zenkai to power up).

But the real fact is that C-17 has an infinite amount of energy, and probably training by training he's arriving to the point to exploit his powerup at maximum. But yes, If we speak about quality, cyborgs are less technical prepared even iff compared to Yamcha, Krillin and Tien who invented techniques to overcome their low power levels.

Even with infinite energy, it wasn't enough to outperform Piccolo against Saganbo. Both androids were useless against Saganbo, and were pushed aside, while Gohan and Piccolo kept fighting until the end. Goku's quote about them being "barely recognizable" is another way of telling it.

And Android 18 should be close to equal to Android 17's level. They both managed to impress Moro with their full power attack and both were able to scratch him. It wouldn't make sense for Android 18 to still be as weak as in the ToP if she was able to perform such feat.

That means, the order is that Gohan is the strongest of them, followed by Piccolo, then below is Android 17, with Android 18 being close to her brother.

I read carefully your post and well, your explanation seemed to be accurate. I reviewed the post thanks, mate.