A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:05 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 2:50 pm It's worth mentioning that even after Black went Rosé, Vegeta still managed to keep up for a while. Being fair, Goku stated that Vegeta was doing the change multiple times, so it's also possible that whenever he needed to maximize SSB to counter Black, he did the change for a split second - be it for dodging, striking or blocking.
I wouldn't say that Vegeta managed to keep up with SSJ Rosé Black. There is a contrast between his performance in both fights. Against SSJ Black, Vegeta managed to hit blows and injure him (as we saw, he got stronger because he was recovered by Zamasu from those wounds), but SSJ Black was clearly above, since even after eating the senzu Vegeta was still being defeated.

After Black becomes SSJ Rosé, Goku even considers fighting alongside Vegeta against Black alone, in which Vegeta proudly refuses After that Black pretty much three shotted Vegeta without him offering any resistance, the difference in power was quite large (especially considering that Rosé is his version of SSB, and with SSJ alone he was already capable of overpowering Vegeta)

Regarding God-Blue, Goku specifically says that Vegeta transformed into Blue only at the moment of the attack, so I don't think he transformed to defend himself, since the point was to maximize Blue's power when using it in short bursts during attacks.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4048
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:50 pm

Even if 99% of Fused Zamasu's power comes from Goku Black it should still be enough to put him way above the unfused SSB fighters... because Potara fusion multiplies the power levels of the components, it doesn't just add them together. So Fused Zamasu should still be multiple times stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, even if Goku fought evenly against him for a short time. Unless you want to tell me that completing SSB somehow boosted Goku's power exponentially, which I doubt.

User avatar
Magnificent Ponta
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 899
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:25 pm
Location: Not on Tumblr, I guess

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Mar 15, 2021 5:32 pm

To lay down a slightly weird-seeming post in relation to the overall topic premise, I get the increasing feeling that numbers and tiers don't quite do the job anymore to express what Dragon Ball Super's manga is doing when it comes to power - at least, not on their own, not fully. Increasingly, I prefer to think of dimensions and shapes as explaining power in Dragon Ball Super.

Since Zamas2 is under discussion right now, I'll use him as an example of what I mean:

Image
  • At the beginning (far left image) his power gets a massive boost to unmatched heights (the vertical axis of this shape) - but he's also in total control of his power, wielding it beyond even his expectation. The power he's able to wield is therefore represented by a perfect circle, and the power is the area of that shape. Putting a number to this by which we can understand the others, then, he's at 100 in both raw power and wielded power. (The figures are illustrative, rather than a thoroughgoing calculation.)
  • When he's fighting Goku and taking significant damage (centre-left image), his stamina is being repeatedly taxed and his body is taking aggregative damage on top of his ki being expended - so, not only is his power going down, but he's becoming less capable of wielding the power he has, unless he can find some way of recovering and bringing forth his power. So, even though his raw power isn't all that different (93/100) - he's still very powerful, and he will eventually completely restore himself - the power he can wield is much lower than it was when he wasn't under pressure (69/100).
  • In his abortive attempts to restore himself (centre-right image), he's able to succeed to a limited extent, but Goku keeps interrupting and applying pressure that stops him from being entirely successful. So, even though he's in the process of healing the damage he has and he's still has all this raw ki at his disposal (100/100), Goku's attacks are still taking their toll and his power is still 'out of shape' and unstable, so even when healing his wielding of his power is still diminished (84/100).
  • When his ki spikes in his rage (far right image), Trunks comments on how much power he has left (124/100), but Vegeta can see how unstable his grip on his power has become thanks to the toll that has been taken on him so far, and his actual wielded power is diminished further than it was (82/100), and is at risk of losing the power altogether - shown by how 'stretched out of shape' his power is in this image. He'll eventually return to the perfect circle (100/100 against both indices) once the battle is over and he has recovered, his power stabilised once again before his fusion ends.
Similar things are happening to SSjB Goku, since he's not used to his Completed Blue power and it's damaging him to use it, so even if his power were to spike above the 100 index set by Zamas2, it's never an actual 'perfect circle' completely under his control. So, Goku's raw ki power could even be bigger than Zamas2's at times, but his wielded power (the area of the shape) is more-or-less the same. Comparing with other arcs: Jiren is almost always a massive, perfect circle (until extensively damaged by Goku, which pushes it out of shape), and Ultra Instinct Goku has another dimension of power projection altogether - more like a cylinder or a sphere than just a circle (probably more the former, as it more easily connotes 'depth' of power projection).

So, I accept this post is weird. But I hope it's at least interesting.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Thani » Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:34 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:50 pm Even if 99% of Fused Zamasu's power comes from Goku Black it should still be enough to put him way above the unfused SSB fighters... because Potara fusion multiplies the power levels of the components, it doesn't just add them together. So Fused Zamasu should still be multiple times stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, even if Goku fought evenly against him for a short time. Unless you want to tell me that completing SSB somehow boosted Goku's power exponentially, which I doubt.
Which is the point. It couldn't have been the case for Zamasu because, otherwise, it would make CSSB too massive of a powerup compared to regular Blue. It is supposed to be considerable, yes, the full power of the form is indeed great. But to the point of being dozens of time greater, at the minimum? Preposterous.

The same logic was used with Kefla - if it wasn't mainly Kale's power, then it wouldn't make sense for Gohan to fight her. Kale was breaking CSSB Goku's guard and pummeling Golden Freeza at the peak of her power. A Kefla dozens of times stronger than that would make Gohan, by far, the second strongest character in the whole arc, behind only Jiren. Doubly preposterous because, in the Moro arc, he's left in the dust by CSSB Goku by a rather wide margin, despite getting even stronger. And Piccolo, of all people, was performing just as good as him.

I can't not see it as Toyotaro and Toriyama adjusting their own rules to fit the present narrative, because it's a real inconsistence on how fusion works.

User avatar
DestructoDisc
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 394
Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 1:07 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by DestructoDisc » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:11 am

Piccolo ain't weaker than 17. C'mon now, Big Green was doing way better against Moro than 17 was.

And the 2 androids should be around the same tier. There's no way 18 is "maybe" stronger than Semi Perfect Cell when she was able to impress Moro, land a scratch on him and keep the goat busy till Vegeta arrived.

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4048
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:49 am

Thani wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:34 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:50 pm Even if 99% of Fused Zamasu's power comes from Goku Black it should still be enough to put him way above the unfused SSB fighters... because Potara fusion multiplies the power levels of the components, it doesn't just add them together. So Fused Zamasu should still be multiple times stronger than SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta, even if Goku fought evenly against him for a short time. Unless you want to tell me that completing SSB somehow boosted Goku's power exponentially, which I doubt.
Which is the point. It couldn't have been the case for Zamasu because, otherwise, it would make CSSB too massive of a powerup compared to regular Blue. It is supposed to be considerable, yes, the full power of the form is indeed great. But to the point of being dozens of time greater, at the minimum? Preposterous.

The same logic was used with Kefla - if it wasn't mainly Kale's power, then it wouldn't make sense for Gohan to fight her. Kale was breaking CSSB Goku's guard and pummeling Golden Freeza at the peak of her power. A Kefla dozens of times stronger than that would make Gohan, by far, the second strongest character in the whole arc, behind only Jiren. Doubly preposterous because, in the Moro arc, he's left in the dust by CSSB Goku by a rather wide margin, despite getting even stronger. And Piccolo, of all people, was performing just as good as him.

I can't not see it as Toyotaro and Toriyama adjusting their own rules to fit the present narrative, because it's a real inconsistence on how fusion works.
The alternative I've proposed since the beginning is that Zamasu indeed was much stronger than Completed SSB, but due to his deteriorating mental state, he couldn't focus/concentrate his power well, and that hurt his performance against Goku.

It's not even that hidden, the story literally shows Zamasu with his vein almost popping out due to how much irritated he is, he demands Goku and Vegeta to acknowledge him as God, he keeps trying to not only kill Goku and Vegeta but also make them bow before him, etc. Does this look like the face of someone who is relaxed, calm, and composed?

Image

His vein is literally about to pop out from his frustration. It's as I've been saying since the beginning, it's an ambiguous fight, we don't know how well Zamasu would do if he fought Goku while he was still calm and composed like before he fought Vegito. It's just that fighting Vegito hurt him emotionally and psychologically A LOT, and that obviously impacted his fighting performance too.

Also we know Potara fusion is multiplication, so even if Immortal Zamasu was so pathetically weak compared to the Saiyans, Fused Zamasu should still be way above them via simple multiplication. If the Saiyan fighters were a 20 while Immortal Zamasu was a 2, Fused Zamasu would still be a 40 at the bare minimum, and then obviously it's an exponential power boost, etc (since I'm pretty sure it's stated in a databook that Gotenks was "tens of times stronger than Goten and Trunks").

User avatar
Nistarkail
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:32 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Nistarkail » Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:59 am

Piccolo ain't weaker than 17. C'mon now, Big Green was doing way better against Moro than 17 was.
Honestly, I dislike how C-17 grew so stronger and how his story evolved. In my honest opinion I preferred Piccolo, but the lack of infinite stamina makes him a bit below. Now that he trained with Gohan, I think that he could spare with C-17 much better than before.

And the 2 androids should be around the same tier. There's no way 18 is "maybe" stronger than Semi Perfect Cell when she was able to impress Moro, land a scratch on him and keep the goat busy till Vegeta arrived.

User avatar
batistabus
Patreon Supporter
Posts: 2108
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 2:55 pm
Location: DBS:SH

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by batistabus » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:06 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:49 am Also we know Potara fusion is multiplication
Not necessarily. When considering who to merge with, Goku thinks combining with Mr. Satan would actually make him weaker. Zamasu is much weaker than Goku Black, so it's possible (and likely) that Potara is not just a multiplication tool (because Dragon Ball isn't math).

Other than that, Zamasu's frustration could certainly be getting in his way, and it seems more plausible next to "completed" Blue's calm state.

User avatar
Grimlock
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8242
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:11 pm
Location: Cybertron.

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Grimlock » Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:15 am

We can hardly take into consideration Goku's assumptions. He had never fused before, he didn't know how it worked. In an interview, Toriyama says these fusions are to power up, to increase power. So it's not actually possible to get weaker by fusing using these methods (Potara and Metamoru).

Even if Mister Satan's power level were 2, there would still be an increase to Goku's 10. And according to the only official multiplier to Potara, that would mean: 10 x 2 = 20.

Also, Oozaru uses multiplication. Kaio-ken uses multiplication. Super Saiyan forms use multiplication. Potara uses multiplication (and based on all that, it's only logical that Metamoru fusion is also multiplication), so I'd say it's math, they just don't want you to keep thinking about this, hence why they avoid explicit statements in the series.
Goodbye friend. You are weak, so you must be destroyed!

~ War of the Dinobots ~

User avatar
SupremeKai25
I Live Here
Posts: 4048
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:40 am

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:26 pm

batistabus wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:06 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:49 am Also we know Potara fusion is multiplication
Not necessarily. When considering who to merge with, Goku thinks combining with Mr. Satan would actually make him weaker. Zamasu is much weaker than Goku Black, so it's possible (and likely) that Potara is not just a multiplication tool (because Dragon Ball isn't math).

Other than that, Zamasu's frustration could certainly be getting in his way, and it seems more plausible next to "completed" Blue's calm state.
There's no confirmation that I can think of in the Super manga. I would drop Vados' statement about Fusion from the anime (the comment she made about Kefla, that one), but out of respect for OP, who specified "Manga only", I won't use any anime sources.

Regardless it's just logic, Black had already surpassed Goku's level BEFORE fusing, so it just makes no sense that the fusion between Black and an immortal partner would somehow be equal to Goku... he can't have gotten that much stronger just because he mastered SSB. And so there must be some kind of multiplier involved here.

And it's true that Black was eventually overpowered by Vegeta, but Vegeta had been training for a long time in the Time Chamber, even breaking it from his intense training, so obviously he got much stronger before his rematch with Black. Goku however didn't do any of that, he was busy learning the Mafuba technique, which failed anyway.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Thani » Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:37 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 1:26 pm
batistabus wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 11:06 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 3:49 am Also we know Potara fusion is multiplication
Not necessarily. When considering who to merge with, Goku thinks combining with Mr. Satan would actually make him weaker. Zamasu is much weaker than Goku Black, so it's possible (and likely) that Potara is not just a multiplication tool (because Dragon Ball isn't math).

Other than that, Zamasu's frustration could certainly be getting in his way, and it seems more plausible next to "completed" Blue's calm state.
There's no confirmation that I can think of in the Super manga. I would drop Vados' statement about Fusion from the anime (the comment she made about Kefla, that one), but out of respect for OP, who specified "Manga only", I won't use any anime sources.

Regardless it's just logic, Black had already surpassed Goku's level BEFORE fusing, so it just makes no sense that the fusion between Black and an immortal partner would somehow be equal to Goku... he can't have gotten that much stronger just because he mastered SSB. And so there must be some kind of multiplier involved here.

And it's true that Black was eventually overpowered by Vegeta, but Vegeta had been training for a long time in the Time Chamber, even breaking it from his intense training, so obviously he got much stronger during his rematch with Black. Goku however didn't do any of that, he was busy learning the Mafuba technique, which failed anyway.
I don't think he did, though, a lot was made about how Goku and Vegeta's bodies were already at or reaching their limits, so they shouldn't get much better without breaking them. Vegeta's training was mostly on the God-Blue switcharoo in order to maximize his own power - in a sense, it was the closest thing to "complete" Blue that we had at the time. It would make sense that such power would overwhelm Black, who hadn't "completed" his own form yet.

Basically, Vegeta's regular blue power < Black regular rosé power. But Vegeta's full power in blue > Black regular rosé power.

I would actually argue that Black's body was more or less handling and taking Vegeta's hits rather well for a time and was mainly losing because of combination of the damage building up and his own lack of understanding of what Vegeta was doing, resulting in his power dropping enough that he couldn't hold his own anymore. Basically that if he understood Vegeta's strategy, he could still fight against it properly while in fresh shape.

User avatar
Koitsukai
I Live Here
Posts: 4276
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:02 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:56 pm

The difference between CSSB and SSB is a long-running discussion and probably part of the mess the manga is in that arc.

We have to assume SSB at the very nanosecond it's entered, it is already losing steam, therefore the time it takes you/your fist to reach your enemy's face, has already costed you a GREAT deal of power, no matter how much time passed. Considering how easily Zamasu speedblitzed SSB Goku and Vegeta the moment he was born, and how even the fight with Goku was (when Vegeta as SS2 was >>>> Goku's SS3, implying he either has a stronger base than Goku or only a better SS form), the form must have that much of a drain because the difference was abysmal, and also SSB Vegeta ate a senzu but still couldn't do anything to Black, so the drain must be immediate, constant and I guess exponential.

For CSSB to be that much better at combat than SSB, while wielding the "same" amount of power, its enhancement should bring to the table zero drain.

Basically, I think SSB is supposed to be a 100, but in practice it drops immediately and way too fast, maybe with an initial 70 and dropping. You are always screwed if you have the incomplete form. You never get to the full power, not even at the very, very, very beginning.
The Switch probably solves the exponential, constant drain and locks it at IDK, 70-75, letting you attack with the power we all thought blue actually was. Otherwise, assuming Goku and Vegeta are relatively equal, the blue part of the Switch should've destroyed Blacks' skull, because that same power was withstood by Zamasu later on.
And CSSB is the full power at your disposal, you are at a 100 all the time, every time. Maybe there's a drain because there's always an aura (implied to be the cause of the drain) but immediately after the aura is gone, the form gets back to a 100 and stays there.

So: Zamasu 100
CSSB Goku 100
Switch Vegeta 75
Rose Black 74-70
SSB Goku/Vegeta starts at 75 or even less and drops until it can be weaker than SS, like during the U6 arc.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 873
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Thani » Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:40 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:56 pm The difference between CSSB and SSB is a long-running discussion and probably part of the mess the manga is in that arc.

We have to assume SSB at the very nanosecond it's entered, it is already losing steam, therefore the time it takes you/your fist to reach your enemy's face, has already costed you a GREAT deal of power, no matter how much time passed. Considering how easily Zamasu speedblitzed SSB Goku and Vegeta the moment he was born, and how even the fight with Goku was (when Vegeta as SS2 was >>>> Goku's SS3, implying he either has a stronger base than Goku or only a better SS form), the form must have that much of a drain because the difference was abysmal, and also SSB Vegeta ate a senzu but still couldn't do anything to Black, so the drain must be immediate, constant and I guess exponential.

For CSSB to be that much better at combat than SSB, while wielding the "same" amount of power, its enhancement should bring to the table zero drain.

Basically, I think SSB is supposed to be a 100, but in practice it drops immediately and way too fast, maybe with an initial 70 and dropping. You are always screwed if you have the incomplete form. You never get to the full power, not even at the very, very, very beginning.
The Switch probably solves the exponential, constant drain and locks it at IDK, 70-75, letting you attack with the power we all thought blue actually was. Otherwise, assuming Goku and Vegeta are relatively equal, the blue part of the Switch should've destroyed Blacks' skull, because that same power was withstood by Zamasu later on.
And CSSB is the full power at your disposal, you are at a 100 all the time, every time. Maybe there's a drain because there's always an aura (implied to be the cause of the drain) but immediately after the aura is gone, the form gets back to a 100 and stays there.

So: Zamasu 100
CSSB Goku 100
Switch Vegeta 75
Rose Black 74-70
SSB Goku/Vegeta starts at 75 or even less and drops until it can be weaker than SS, like during the U6 arc.
I would say it's more like... The moment you turn SSGSS, your power explodes. That's how Goku broke free from Hit's time skip, after all. The drain is fast, yes, but while immediate it's not necessarily massive.

Black was basically stronger than Goku and Vegeta in equal forms, so there's that. I would scale more or less like:

CSSR/Zamasu: 100~110
CSSB: 100
Switch Vegeta: 80~100, the main gimmick was that it allowed Vegeta to pretty much use Blue's full power in short bursts.
SSR Black: 80 and dropping, perhaps at a lesser grade than Goku and Vegeta because of his better experience with god ki?
SSB Goku/Vegeta: 70 as the normal amount of power used, but dropping at a consistent rate.
SSG: 10~50, it's considerably stronger than SSB when it's power drops below 10%, since it was immune to Hit's normal time skip.

User avatar
TobyS
I Live Here
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:11 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by TobyS » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:37 am

First up, I'm pretty sure the first guide to mention fusion mentioned "it's MORE like multiplacation than addition" did it not? and not character x times character y either, just a hypothetical multiplier.

I think they know BP x BP would be insane.

SS3 is x400 already, a bp of like nearly 3,000,000, to 120,000,000 being timesd by another the sameish would be fucking insane.

So the only way I can square a lot of the circles in the manga for black is this, it's kinda a copout but it's also supported in the text.
"Zamasu is unique, his multipliers are unique, he stole gokus body but he has zamasus soul, ki is part soul based, he has god ki, even the weaker shin is stronger than a base saiyan. His multipliers can be bigger or smaller, his SS1 could be like Shin going SS1 or he could have more access to that same potential in base and SS does less for him. Blue/Rose might be a smaller jump then usual because he was already using some of his god ki already"

So it's a case of he's a strong as the plot needs to be but there's an in universe explanation built in.

I mean the fact that he has Rose instead of Blue shows he literally does work different.
There's also his weird Zenkai thing, they are really psudeo zenkais, Gokus stolen body was already maxed out on zenkais, Blacks are his soul and body getting more in synch.

Not only is this further evidence that he's screwy but it also feeds back into the multiplier screwiness, like was SS 50x his unsychned bodies power at first?

I think by the time he gets Rose he's fully in synch. And if he's ahead of Goku and Geets it's somehow his pre kaioshin power on top, and native god ki user status giving him some kind of advantage.

Once Vegeta also kinda masters blue (well works round his weaknesses with red, he's able to win deciseivly but not in a complete one shot or anything.)

So at the end of the day I think Blacks base and Super saiyan forms are just getting a god ki boost, but his rose is probably about the same as ToP/early Moro era blues.
Yamcha almost certainly did not cheat on Bulma:
He was afraid of Women, Bulma was the flirty one.
Yamcha wanted to get married (it was his gonna be his wish)
He suggested they settle down in the Trunks saga.
Alternate future Trunks is not a reliable source.
Toriyama wanted new SSJ Kids and not make new characters.

Gogeta_Blue
Newbie
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 am

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Gogeta_Blue » Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:48 am

SS3 is x400 already, a bp of like nearly 3,000,000, to 120,000,000 being timesd by another the sameish would be fucking insane.
This could explain how a BoG SSJ/SSJ3 fusion can be weaker than SSJG, yet a current Base fusion more or less = SSJB. The stronger the characters are, the bigger the fusion boost. It was supported by Kid Trunks in the Boo arc, though it ultimately led to a gag scene with Base Gotenks getting slapped anyway.

User avatar
Piccolo_Daima
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 50
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:42 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Piccolo_Daima » Fri Mar 19, 2021 8:36 am

Piccolo weaker than 17? No way in hell, Piccolo did better against Moro than 17, so piccolo is stronger than 17

dragonball0900
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1069
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Mar 19, 2021 10:41 am

Yeah, Current Piccolo is stronger than Android 17 since he did better and kept up with Gohan against Saganbo, who is far stronger than his ToP self.

Android 18 should be close to Android 17 since both managed to scratch and impress Moro as well.

Piccolo and Android 18 basically received very big power boosts.

User avatar
Nistarkail
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2021 5:32 pm

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Nistarkail » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:10 pm

Piccolo weaker than 17? No way in hell, Piccolo did better against Moro than 17, so piccolo is stronger than 17
Yeah, Current Piccolo is stronger than Android 17 since he did better and kept up with Gohan against Saganbo, who is far stronger than his ToP self.

Android 18 should be close to Android 17 since both managed to scratch and impress Moro as well.

Piccolo and Android 18 basically received very big power boosts.
Guys, I think that Piccolo in terms of abilities and strategic fight is far better than C-17, that personally I find boring. Your statements are true, and in fact I admit that the comparison between Piccolo and C-17 was really hard to calculate. We have to consider that Piccolo trained with Gohan (far superior to SSJ 3), while C-17 at maximum could improve against Mini-Cells (that surely jijittunever used Zenkai to power up).

But the real fact is that C-17 has an infinite amount of energy, and probably training by training he's arriving to the point to exploit his powerup at maximum. But yes, If we speak about quality, cyborgs are less technical prepared even iff compared to Yamcha, Krillin and Tien who invented techniques to overcome their low power levels.

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by BWri » Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:21 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:34 pm The same logic was used with Kefla - if it wasn't mainly Kale's power, then it wouldn't make sense for Gohan to fight her. Kale was breaking CSSB Goku's guard and pummeling Golden Freeza at the peak of her power. A Kefla dozens of times stronger than that would make Gohan, by far, the second strongest character in the whole arc, behind only Jiren. Doubly preposterous because, in the Moro arc, he's left in the dust by CSSB Goku by a rather wide margin, despite getting even stronger. And Piccolo, of all people, was performing just as good as him.

I can't not see it as Toyotaro and Toriyama adjusting their own rules to fit the present narrative, because it's a real inconsistence on how fusion works.
There's a few clues to make Gohan = Kefla make sense. Kale herself doesn't scale up to the Full Power versions of Golden Frieza or SSB Goku for 1 as they both weren't treating her as a serious opponent (but I know that's too controversial for many of you to believe but the proof is there) but secondly they fused after both fighters were drained of most of their power. There doesn't seem to be a precedent of drained fighters creating a weaker fusion but I've never really dived into that aspect of the series too deeply. I've theorized recently that manga Kefla is likely 2x stronger than Kale at her peak more or less. At max she could be something like 10x, but certainly not Kale x Caulifla's power.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

Cipher
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6333
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:54 pm
Location: Nagano
Contact:

Re: A long recap about power levels of DBS (Manga only)

Post by Cipher » Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:22 am

This is just the same as the larger Strength thread now, right...?

Re: Kefla and Gohan: I don’t think anything there is a huge stretch, given the presentation.

Kale is able to surprise Freeza and Goku, as well as Vegeta and Toppo, but all the dialogue ever tells us is that they think they could take her if they got serious. She’s up there in power, but not taking any of them 1:1, most likely, even if it wouldn’t be an effortless match for the Blue-level fighters.

Caulifla adding some power, but not an outrageous amount with the gap in strength, already has precedent in Zamasu, whose fused power is able to overwhelm Vegeta and Goku together whereas Black had just struggled with one, but still nowhere near Vegetto, the product of two fighters together both at that Super Saiyan Blue-level.

Gohan fighting Kefla to a draw then only requires a Gohan up in that SSB level of the hierarchy, and much dialogue is expended as he battles her as to his having grown further within the tournament and displaying the potential to surpass Goku if he ever committed himself entirely to martial arts in the same way.

I think the only thing slightly sketchy about it is where it would position Gohan and Freeza relative to one another, since it seems like the overall thrust is that Freeza is still #3 in Universe 7 by the end of the ToP, but that’s still possible, especially if, say, Freeza is up there with the perfected Blue characters, as Goku implies he is near the start of the arc.

If Kale is between God and Blue (or even up to initial Blue) — enough to deal with most of the competitors, enough to startle Freeza, Goku and the others, and enough to seriously jeopardize their chances of lasting out the tournament were they have to deal with her (remember, conserving energy is at the fore), Kefla and Gohan are between initial Blue and the perfected variant from the end of the Zamasu fight, and Goku, Vegeta and Freeza at full power are all one rung up from that, everything shakes out.

As far as the Potaras’ effects, we don’t even need to limit our precedents to Super. In the original series, Goku is concerned that fusing with Mr. Satan might actually make him weaker, and Kibito-Shin, while stronger than either apart, is still held to mostly be a liability in a serious fight with any of the forms of Boo populating they arc’s back half. I don’t even think one has to say that the level of increase Vegetto displays over Goku and Vegeta individually has to be some kind of exception. Rather, it’s our only case of seeing two fighters of relatively equal power (minus Goku’s extra form) combining—hence a greater disparity between the end result and either of the individual fusees; all the other examples are petty lopsided.

The only thing that sets you up for problems is being overly literal with an idea of strict multiplication, but if that were the case, frankly Kibito-Shin should already have been kicking all kinds of ass, and it’s kind of an unwieldy standard for the series to have to hold itself to. Even if you look at the Super anime, which seems to hold itself to stronger Potara fusions, there’s a lot that’s hard to make heads of tails of with Kale and Kefla’s respective performances against Super Saiyan Blue Goku.

Post Reply