What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:43 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:25 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:57 pm I think you are both on the same page, if I understood what Hugo is trying to say, he means Beerus forces an object or subject to release a large amount of energy when they are destroyed, and that the bang isn't made by Beerus' energy but from the object itself.

So it doesn't matter how strong the hakai-user is when it comes to creating the bang as long as they can make that thing go boom, and what Vegeta is learning is how to make that happen.
So Jiren can be stronger than Vermoud but at the same time he can still be defeated or killed by this technique.
I mean, I’m all for the theory that the Hakai user can use the massive energy released from an erased object to make himself stronger for battle. The problem is ofcourse that this is never fully stated. And the implication for that isn’t exactly “too” strong either.

However, if Belmod can use that energy for battle and to power himself up, then the end result is the same: He’s stronger than Jiren.. (with it.)

It still doesn’t explain “HOW” they make the target go “boom” and be erased ofcourse.
Agreed that it was never stated, though I don't think that's Hugo's argument, that using hakai that way makes you stronger or powers you up in some way.
I believe the thing is it doesn't have to make them stronger for battle, for instance if I fight Tyson but I have a shotgun, I can kill or harm him, and definitely defeat him but I'm not actually stronger than he is. I mean, in absolute terms, yes, I would be "stronger" because I have a weapon that happens to be stronger than Tyson, but I haven't actually changed.
In that case, you could say the same Toppo said about them: Tyson has a much higher battle power than I have... but I have a 12-gauge(hakai).

I think (hope) we'll learn more about the HOW, but my guess is we won't learn MUCH more. Probably because the writers have no idea either of how it actually works or care.

Basically, I believe Hugo was saying that hakai is like a hax that makes things "self-destruct" in a way.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:44 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:43 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:25 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:57 pm I think you are both on the same page, if I understood what Hugo is trying to say, he means Beerus forces an object or subject to release a large amount of energy when they are destroyed, and that the bang isn't made by Beerus' energy but from the object itself.

So it doesn't matter how strong the hakai-user is when it comes to creating the bang as long as they can make that thing go boom, and what Vegeta is learning is how to make that happen.
So Jiren can be stronger than Vermoud but at the same time he can still be defeated or killed by this technique.
I mean, I’m all for the theory that the Hakai user can use the massive energy released from an erased object to make himself stronger for battle. The problem is ofcourse that this is never fully stated. And the implication for that isn’t exactly “too” strong either.

However, if Belmod can use that energy for battle and to power himself up, then the end result is the same: He’s stronger than Jiren.. (with it.)

It still doesn’t explain “HOW” they make the target go “boom” and be erased ofcourse.
Agreed that it was never stated, though I don't think that's Hugo's argument, that using hakai that way makes you stronger or powers you up in some way.
I believe the thing is it doesn't have to make them stronger for battle, for instance if I fight Tyson but I have a shotgun, I can kill or harm him, and definitely defeat him but I'm not actually stronger than he is. I mean, in absolute terms, yes, I would be "stronger" because I have a weapon that happens to be stronger than Tyson, but I haven't actually changed.
In that case, you could say the same Toppo said about them: Tyson has a much higher battle power than I have... but I have a 12-gauge(hakai).

I think (hope) we'll learn more about the HOW, but my guess is we won't learn MUCH more. Probably because the writers have no idea either of how it actually works or care.

Basically, I believe Hugo was saying that hakai is like a hax that makes things "self-destruct" in a way.
Fair enough. I get your points. But ofcourse it would be ridiculous to assume that Vegeta will not get a powerup out of it ofcourse😀

Because this is Dragon Ball lol

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:50 pm

Intresting theory that somehow does make sense though.
If it were to be true, which isn't proven, in that case absorption of erased energy would work in a simular way as MUI:
a technique that basically grants the user a way higher battle output than that individual could achieve by normal training.
Literary the strongest in the universe in terms of classic power-ups we've seen thus far by that theory would be Jiren and Broly.
No techniques, just straight "Ki-muscle power".

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:07 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:44 pm
Fair enough. I get your points. But ofcourse it would be ridiculous to assume that Vegeta will not get a powerup out of it ofcourse😀

Because this is Dragon Ball lol
Don't get me wrong, I, too, hope and believe Vegeta will get one because, after all, first he has to destroy something in a certain way in order to release its energy and probably needs to improve greatly in some way to do so. Perhaps having hakai under your belt, mastering it, the journey, I mean, improves your power immensely.
I do think we'll get more info about how that will improve Vegeta's ki/spirit.

I also wonder if Beerus and Vermoud, and the rest of the GoDs for that matter, have the same amount of control over hakai. The exhibition match showed Beerus and Quitela being the strongest without resorting to hakai, who knows if Beerus is also the top dog when it comes to hakai...

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by ankokudaishogun » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:53 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 2:43 pm In that case, you could say the same Toppo said about them: Tyson has a much higher battle power than I have... but I have a 12-gauge(hakai).
so, Manga Belmod cannot beat Manga Jiren in a martial arts battle but could, at the very least in theory, kill him with Hakai?
Makes sense, I suppose.

Also, food for though: Anime GoD Toppo was using a Hakai Aura.
Perhaps he was exerting his own energy to annihilate surrounding matter(air)\enemy attacks and using the resulting energy to recover power.
Like a "real" GoD(Belmod himself stated there was no real difference from one, didn't he?), with the difference he was still unskilled in using it so had to keep it on all time instead of using it into instantaneous bursts and\or couldn't generate it fast enough
Mister_Popo wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:50 pm Literary the strongest in the universe in terms of classic power-ups we've seen thus far by that theory would be Jiren and Broly.
No techniques, just straight "Ki-muscle power".
Anime Jiren is quite the technician though. Not overly complex techniques but has his basics honed to perfection, enough to have a few Angels complimenting his technique, comparing him to a GoD.
...then Jiren powered-up thrice.

Frankly, I find quite infuriating how different Anime and Manga Jiren are! :D It makes discussing power-levels much harder :D

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Thani » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:01 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:53 pm
Mister_Popo wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:50 pm Literary the strongest in the universe in terms of classic power-ups we've seen thus far by that theory would be Jiren and Broly.
No techniques, just straight "Ki-muscle power".
Anime Jiren is quite the technician though. Not overly complex techniques but has his basics honed to perfection, enough to have a few Angels complimenting his technique, comparing him to a GoD.
...then Jiren powered-up thrice.

Frankly, I find quite infuriating how different Anime and Manga Jiren are! :D It makes discussing power-levels much harder :D
I think it can be rather "easy" to compromise it. Like, when Whis compared him to a God of Destruction, he was most likely talking about his full power - he could tell that, by what amount he showed during his battle with Goku, his true potential would be in the realm of the GoD's.

When he first powered up, imo, was to exert dominance - he really wasn't needing it at all beforehand, so it was sort of a show of respect.

The second time would be his full power, comparable to the GoD's, and he used it to completely overpower everyone and match even Ultra Instinct Sign. Which could be retconned afterwards given that, by the Moro arc, Sign doesn't appear to be a threat to Gods of Destruction if Moro was any indication.

The third time, the "Blazing Warrior Jiren" can be either seem as his true full power or a breaking of limits. Because of how the Moro arc depicted things, I'll go with the first interpretation - it's in this state that he's "Like a God of Destruction. He's the one who reached such a state. Perhaps even surpassed it", mostly because of how the Moro arc seemingly portrayed Beerus (and the GoDs in general) in that ballpark comparable to the silver UI.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:28 am

It’s still far fetched though that the hakai user gets his “power” that way.. I’d love to get an actual explanation on it in the next chapter, though I’m not holding my breath for it “Sigh”.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Nevaeh » Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:57 pm

It wouldn't be the first time they retconned someone's power

The way Beerus speaks about the himself and the Gods of Destruction in general does give off the vibe that they're still stronger than everybody else

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Miracles » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:28 pm

There was never any Broly > Beerus. The story outright left that statement open with "probably." The plot just answered that not to be the case too. Since Goku and Vegeta are now stronger than Broly, Jiren and Belmond. Granolah is now stronger than both Goku and Vegeta, yet still weaker than Beerus/whis. So there can't be any retcon.

Also, it's not right to assume that Belmond's Hakai is anywhere near Beerus's. It's like saying Base Goku's Kamehameha would be as strong as Blue Goku's Kamehameha since they both can use the same technique. They aren't even close. Even Whis just told Goku that UI has levels to it. Why would Hakai be any different?

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:56 pm

There's also nothing implying Vermoud's hakai is far from Beerus' or any other GoD's for that matter. We haven't gotten yet to that part of the story where they rank their abilities with the technique.
Beerus' advantage is his physical power, we do not know if he also surpasses them in technique as well.

If there's any intention of keeping some balance between the hakaishins, they should all at least have a similar level of control over hakai. When Beerus told Geets about it, he didn't set himself apart either.

I'll concede that seeing how they love to wank Beerus, he could definitely be also the best at using hakai. But we do not know that yet.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Miracles » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:16 pm

The strength of Techniques depend on level of power. We are three arcs from the TOP and Beerus power is on a whole different level from Belmonds.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:26 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:16 pm The strength of Techniques depend on level of power. We are three arcs from the TOP and Beerus power is on a whole different level from Belmonds.
Hakai isn't just a technique. If you can produce evidence for hakai, I'll gladly accept it.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:53 pm

Jack Bz wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:32 am The manga does clarify that Jiren is only above Belmod strictly in terms of battle power. It's possible that when it comes down to it, he could easily beat Jiren using hakai despite being weaker.
It was actually “in terms of combat skill” that Toppo said Jiren was better in than Belmod.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Thani » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:55 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:53 pm
Jack Bz wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:32 am The manga does clarify that Jiren is only above Belmod strictly in terms of battle power. It's possible that when it comes down to it, he could easily beat Jiren using hakai despite being weaker.
It was actually “in terms of combat skill” that Toppo said Jiren was better in than Belmod.

Image
But to be fair, the word still given weigth there is "stronger". So it's safe to say that Toppo basically means "Jiren is, if nothing else, stronger than Belmod". He never said in the manga that Jiren could beat Belmod, though.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Miracles » Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:56 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:26 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:16 pm The strength of Techniques depend on level of power. We are three arcs from the TOP and Beerus power is on a whole different level from Belmonds.
Hakai isn't just a technique. If you can produce evidence for hakai, I'll gladly accept it.
Hakai was specifically stated to be a tech [Ch. 69/70]. You asking for any more evidence than that is going outside the story.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:51 pm

Miracles wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:56 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:26 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:16 pm The strength of Techniques depend on level of power. We are three arcs from the TOP and Beerus power is on a whole different level from Belmonds.
Hakai isn't just a technique. If you can produce evidence for hakai, I'll gladly accept it.
Hakai was specifically stated to be a tech [Ch. 69/70]. You asking for any more evidence than that is going outside the story.
Genki dama is also a technique yet it does not depend on the user's power.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:51 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:51 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:56 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:26 pm

Hakai isn't just a technique. If you can produce evidence for hakai, I'll gladly accept it.
Hakai was specifically stated to be a tech [Ch. 69/70]. You asking for any more evidence than that is going outside the story.
Genki dama is also a technique yet it does not depend on the user's power.
also Kienzan, which has punched well above the user's power for its whole history

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Apr 04, 2021 2:05 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 10:28 pm I said it seems, because of what Beerus implies when he explains to Vegeta how the technique works. When the matter is destroyed it releases heaps of energy, so it’s not exactly Beerus’ energy that causes damage to his comic, but the colateral effect of Destruction. Using that energy in a fight is what I think is the point of learning it.
You're right. It was clear from the previous chapters that an explosion caused by the Hakai technique is much larger than one caused by normal Ki blasts (assuming that both use the same amount of energy proportionally), this is the nature of the technique and the for Vegeta being surprised by Beerus' demonstration (even though he only destroyed one planet, the amount of energy generated was big). So it is natural to assume that this increases the user's destructive power and the mastery in Hakai allows the user to do more damage to the enemy by focusing the destruction specifically on a part of his body rather than a large area (as Beerus did with the armor of Vegeta).

Of course, this does not mean that the user's battle power will necessarily increase with the use of Hakai (only his destruction capacity), but I don't think it matters much since in DB, power levels generally always increase in the same proportion (so it is hard to believe that Vegeta would learn only the technique without increasing his BP too)

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Miracles » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:33 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:51 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:56 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:26 pm

Hakai isn't just a technique. If you can produce evidence for hakai, I'll gladly accept it.
Hakai was specifically stated to be a tech [Ch. 69/70]. You asking for any more evidence than that is going outside the story.
Genki dama is also a technique yet it does not depend on the user's power.
Except that type of tech is different from Hakai. Hakai isn't gathering energy from objects.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:55 pm

Miracles wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:33 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:51 pm
Miracles wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:56 pm

Hakai was specifically stated to be a tech [Ch. 69/70]. You asking for any more evidence than that is going outside the story.
Genki dama is also a technique yet it does not depend on the user's power.
Except that type of tech is different from Hakai. Hakai isn't gathering energy from objects.
Then your absolutist argument of "it's a technique therefore (...)" does not apply.

Again, show me where it says Beerus has more control over hakai than any other GoD or please spare me your personal opinion on the matter.

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