What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Lionel » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:40 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 7:53 pm
Jack Bz wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:32 am The manga does clarify that Jiren is only above Belmod strictly in terms of battle power. It's possible that when it comes down to it, he could easily beat Jiren using hakai despite being weaker.
It was actually “in terms of combat skill” that Toppo said Jiren was better in than Belmod.

Image
Yeah, I have to agree with the others who acknowledge that the context there seemed to be relating to quantitative power. Jiren can overpower and speedily overtake the Hakaishin of his universe according to the face value claim. It's not like there were any specific details as to the footwork, joint locks, throws or all around dexterity of the fighters. One is able to pump himself up enough with ki as though he were turning himself into a steroid cactus so that he never loses in arm wrestling -- simple as that.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:23 am

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I think the suggestion still persists that the gods are even stronger than any mortal in universe 7, following this statement of the dragon against Granolah. The statemement 'apart from the gods' would not make much sense if they weren't above all mortal fighters in U7.
Goku has currently won mastery over Ultra Instinct, so we can assume that the dragon will take him into account.
Moreover, the dragon is not talking about '1 or a few gods', he is talking about 'the gods', which may be suggestive that many if not all gods may still be stronger than MUI Goku at this point.

This creates a paradox. In this context, how is post Moro arc MUI Goku > Jiren > Belmod possible?
It's unclear at this point. We will have to wait until the gods finally have to engage in a serious fight to get confirmation of their exact position.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:37 am

Mister_Popo wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:23 am
This creates a paradox somewhere. In this context, how is post Moro arc MUI Goku < Jiren < Belmod possible?
It's unclear at this point. We will have to wait until the gods finally have to engage in a serious fight to get confirmation of their exact position
We can't discard the possibility that Goku isn't actually much stronger than before, but with this technique he can defeat pretty much everyone, including stronger people. Jiren hinted at still being stronger than UI Goku even when he was getting pounded, claiming Goku was only taking advantage of his openings and that real power is something else.
It'd be funny if Granolah got his wish granted and still gets beaten up by somebody "weaker" than he is.

or... the dragon meant gods as in Beerus and Whis. After all, the wish was about Granolah becoming the strongest in this particular universe.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:03 am

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:37 am
Mister_Popo wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:23 am
This creates a paradox somewhere. In this context, how is post Moro arc MUI Goku < Jiren < Belmod possible?
It's unclear at this point. We will have to wait until the gods finally have to engage in a serious fight to get confirmation of their exact position
We can't discard the possibility that Goku isn't actually much stronger than before, but with this technique he can defeat pretty much everyone, including stronger people. Jiren hinted at still being stronger than UI Goku even when he was getting pounded, claiming Goku was only taking advantage of his openings and that real power is something else.
It'd be funny if Granolah got his wish granted and still gets beaten up by somebody "weaker" than he is.

or... the dragon meant gods as in Beerus and Whis. After all, the wish was about Granolah becoming the strongest in this particular universe.


The angels powers greatly arise from their advanced ability of MUI, can't we say for certain for that matter they aren't above the gods?
I get what you are aiming at, and i even don't say it doesn't make any sense.

But the assumption makes the story rather complicated.
Purely semantically it becomes a very difficult discussion if you don't take into account who at the end the better fighter is.
At the end, it's the output (efficiency) in a fight that matters.
Let's asume for a moment a wise dragon should know what.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:10 am

Mister_Popo wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:03 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:37 am
Mister_Popo wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:23 am
This creates a paradox somewhere. In this context, how is post Moro arc MUI Goku < Jiren < Belmod possible?
It's unclear at this point. We will have to wait until the gods finally have to engage in a serious fight to get confirmation of their exact position
We can't discard the possibility that Goku isn't actually much stronger than before, but with this technique he can defeat pretty much everyone, including stronger people. Jiren hinted at still being stronger than UI Goku even when he was getting pounded, claiming Goku was only taking advantage of his openings and that real power is something else.
It'd be funny if Granolah got his wish granted and still gets beaten up by somebody "weaker" than he is.

or... the dragon meant gods as in Beerus and Whis. After all, the wish was about Granolah becoming the strongest in this particular universe.


The angels powers greatly arise from their advanced ability of MUI, can't we say for certain for that matter they aren't above the gods?
I get what you are aiming at, and i even don't say it doesn't make any sense.

But the assumption makes the story rather complicated.
Purely semantically it becomes a very difficult discussion if you don't take into account who at the end the better fighter is.
At the end, it's the output (efficiency) in a fight that matters.
Let's asume for a moment a wise dragon should know what.
The angels might have even more up their sleeve than UI, but yes, most likely the wish wasn't about pure strenght.
The dragon probably meant I can't make you stronger than the non-ningen characters like Beerus and Whis. The wish was regarding Universe 7, so I don't know why Vermoud or Quitela would be involved in it.
In fact I wonder if the dragons know there are other universes.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Miracles » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:55 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:33 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:51 pm
Genki dama is also a technique yet it does not depend on the user's power.
Except that type of tech is different from Hakai. Hakai isn't gathering energy from objects.
Then your absolutist argument of "it's a technique therefore (...)" does not apply.

Again, show me where it says Beerus has more control over hakai than any other GoD or please spare me your personal opinion on the matter.
The story outright states Hakai is a tech. That's a fact I posted. Your faulty comparison, trying to claim it's separate from power level [Using the Genki dama example] is a personal opinion. Another fact is, Beerus power is way beyond Belmonds. There is no way that his Hakai would be on Beerus level. Since not even Granolah, is stronger than Beerus. Vegeta will gain Hakai and still not be on Beerus level. He only has the potential of surpassing current UI Goku with it. It even looks like Granolah has Hakai, yet is weaker than Beerus.

The facts are against you , per usual.
Last edited by Miracles on Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:14 pm

Miracles wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:08 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:55 pm
Miracles wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:33 pm
Except that type of tech is different from Hakai. Hakai isn't gathering energy from objects.
Then your absolutist argument of "it's a technique therefore (...)" does not apply.

Again, show me where it says Beerus has more control over hakai than any other GoD or please spare me your personal opinion on the matter.
The story outright states Hakai is a tech. That's a fact I posted. Your faulty comparison, trying to claim it's separate from power level [Using the Genki dama example] is a personal opinion. Another fact is Beerus power is way beyond Belmonds. There is no way that his Hakai would be on Beerus level. Since not even Granolah is stronger than Beerus. Vegeta will gain Hakai and not be on Beerus level. It even looks like Granolha has Hakai yet is weaker than Beerus.

The facts are against you , per usual.
So you have no evidence, thought so. Thanks for the chat, though.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:08 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:10 am
Mister_Popo wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:03 am
Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:37 am

We can't discard the possibility that Goku isn't actually much stronger than before, but with this technique he can defeat pretty much everyone, including stronger people. Jiren hinted at still being stronger than UI Goku even when he was getting pounded, claiming Goku was only taking advantage of his openings and that real power is something else.
It'd be funny if Granolah got his wish granted and still gets beaten up by somebody "weaker" than he is.

or... the dragon meant gods as in Beerus and Whis. After all, the wish was about Granolah becoming the strongest in this particular universe.


The angels powers greatly arise from their advanced ability of MUI, can't we say for certain for that matter they aren't above the gods?
I get what you are aiming at, and i even don't say it doesn't make any sense.

But the assumption makes the story rather complicated.
Purely semantically it becomes a very difficult discussion if you don't take into account who at the end the better fighter is.
At the end, it's the output (efficiency) in a fight that matters.
Let's asume for a moment a wise dragon should know what.
The angels might have even more up their sleeve than UI, but yes, most likely the wish wasn't about pure strenght.
The dragon probably meant I can't make you stronger than the non-ningen characters like Beerus and Whis. The wish was regarding Universe 7, so I don't know why Vermoud or Quitela would be involved in it.
In fact I wonder if the dragons know there are other universes.



For me semantically speaking 'gods' still have a different meaning than 'angels' inside the universe of Dragon Ball.
The dragon seems to indicate a tier of power or 'destructiveness in battle', which is typically of gods and not mortals.
Of course if he means gods, the angels are included as well because they are even more powerful, but in this case he specifically refers to 'gods'.

Dragons tend to know an awful lot. Although the other universes aren't this dragons domain of operation, It's still very plausible he knows of the existence of other universes, their gods and powers.

Does this really proof there is a retcon on Belmods power? Not stricly, this example only indicates there might be still room for interpretation considering the gods true strength.

It does remain a possibility though, that the only god that's on pair (or at the moment still above) MUI Goku is Beerus.
I am not choosing a definite path on this, i am only keep my options open until further notice.
All this speculation remains to be confirmed in later battle(s).

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:30 pm

I believe the angels are commonly referred as gods as well, be it directly or indirectly. Ultra Instinct is described to be the technique of the gods, yet the angels are the specialists. Beerus also remarks Goku fought like a god when he tuned his movements against Moro. Just a few examples.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:30 pm

Mister_Popo wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:08 pm For me semantically speaking 'gods' still have a different meaning than 'angels' inside the universe of Dragon Ball.
The dragon seems to indicate a tier of power or 'destructiveness in battle', which is typically of gods and not mortals.
Of course if he means gods, the angels are included as well because they are even more powerful, but in this case he specifically refers to 'gods'.

Dragons tend to know an awful lot. Although the other universes aren't this dragons domain of operation, It's still very plausible he knows of the existence of other universes, their gods and powers.

Does this really proof there is a retcon on Belmods power? Not stricly, this example only indicates there might be still room for interpretation considering the gods true strength.

It does remain a possibility though, that the only god that's on pair (or at the moment still above) MUI Goku is Beerus.
I am not choosing a definite path on this, i am only keep my options open until further notice.
All this speculation remains to be confirmed in later battle(s).
I just checked last month's draft pages and while the resolution is bad and I might be misreading the kanji because of it, it looks like it's just GOD and not GODS what the dragon says. It's the kami kanji, not the kamigami kanji, but I'd gladly take someone else's input on this matter.

To me 'gods' means hakaishin and kaioshin when talking about something of one universe, but I wouldn't say angels are left out of it in this context.
Anyway, Granolah asked to be the strongest here, there's no reason to believe the dragon would grant him an even greater wish, by including the other 11 universes. If he even has that much power. I could believe it if it was Super Shenron, who encompasses two universes and is much powerful.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:47 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:30 pm
Mister_Popo wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:08 pm
I just checked last month's draft pages and while the resolution is bad and I might be misreading the kanji because of it, it looks like it's just GOD and not GODS what the dragon says. It's the kami kanji, not the kamigami kanji, but I'd gladly take someone else's input on this matter.

To me 'gods' means hakaishin and kaioshin when talking about something of one universe, but I wouldn't say angels are left out of it in this context.
Anyway, Granolah asked to be the strongest here, there's no reason to believe the dragon would grant him an even greater wish, by including the other 11 universes. If he even has that much power. I could believe it if it was Super Shenron, who encompasses two universes and is much powerful.


I am not saying it's out of the question Whis is included, and he just means Whis and Beerus here.
The dragon may also basically mean 'i can't grant you the powers of destructivness of a god of destruction nor the powers of creation of a kaioshin'.
In those cases the statement has no consequences in terms of a "Belmod power retcon".

But if the dragon literary means 'i can't make you any stronger than the tier of which most of the Gods of Destruction actually belong, that's another league we are talking about than mortals all the way', which is still possible, it may have consequences in terms of a "Belmod power retcon".
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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:49 pm

Well, people can't feel Whis, so he must have god ki. The angels are, pretty much, a godly species in the Dragon World. The only reason they're not outright called "gods" is because they don't hold any specific title.

So I think it's fair that the Dragon is including the angels in his wish. The problem is, of course, that Shin and King Kai and even Dende are both gods. How is Granola supposed to be the strongest lifeform besides the gods, then?

That said, the dragon outright stated that he couldn't grant that wish as it was. This limitation "besides the gods" could have been thrown out of the window the moment Granolah accepted the conditions, for all we know, if his supposed ultimate potential were to be greater than said gods. We'd have to wait it out.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by ankokudaishogun » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:11 pm

just wait for Granolla being weaker than Dende.

jokes(?) aside, one must wonder if Goku and Vegeta using God Ki count as Gods or Mortals: we haven't been told what's exactly the difference.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:26 pm

ankokudaishogun wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:11 pm just wait for Granolla being weaker than Dende.

jokes(?) aside, one must wonder if Goku and Vegeta using God Ki count as Gods or Mortals: we haven't been told what's exactly the difference.
Most, most likely not counted as the gods in the wish, but it would be hilarious if they did and Granola was actually weaker than them.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by DragonBallFanatic » Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:37 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:30 am Just like they quietly retconned Broly > Beerus in this manga chapter..

Although it’s never outright stated..!

There is VAST reason to believe this may have been the case.

All evidence (in current chapters) points towards the Gods of Destruction being above any and all mortals.

These chapters are CLEARLY writing Hakai power as something special, and far beyond mortal ability!

Hence why even Vegeta! (Who this chapter confirmed is above Broly and Jiren) is simply astounded and impressed by this power..

”Such force! How can I acquire such power?!” — Vegeta

The same “power” that Belmod is supposed to have!
Possibly, I mean Toppo did only state in Combat skill does Jiren surpass Belmod according to Viz Media. Although it is also true the kanji can also translate to power. I think it’s proper to have it that Jiren > Belmod since that’s his whole hype, transversing into GoD tier. ImageWhen the Dragon states the wish, he’s talking exclusively about in the universe, meaning the gods (which can mean just two or more deities) of universe 7.Image
So it’s Beerus & Whis > Granolah

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Jinto » Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:29 am

Toyo should really push his superior to give some clarification or they just don't care ? The problem is so obvious and it negatively impact the writing.
Especially Beerus, the guy should've been, at least, evenly matched with Goku and Vegeta since Zamasu arc.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:23 am

Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:29 am Toyo should really push his superior to give some clarification or they just don't care ? The problem is so obvious and it negatively impact the writing.
Especially Beerus, the guy should've been, at least, evenly matched with Goku and Vegeta since Zamasu arc.
Clarification on what?

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Jinto » Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:37 am

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:23 am
Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:29 am Toyo should really push his superior to give some clarification or they just don't care ? The problem is so obvious and it negatively impact the writing.
Especially Beerus, the guy should've been, at least, evenly matched with Goku and Vegeta since Zamasu arc.
Clarification on what?

Clarification on How (and why) they keep GoD level so high when it doesn't make any sense. It could make sense if they showed Beerus training but the guy slack off and somehow still effortelessly beat an uber-upgraded Vegeta.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:50 am

Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:37 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:23 am
Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 7:29 am Toyo should really push his superior to give some clarification or they just don't care ? The problem is so obvious and it negatively impact the writing.
Especially Beerus, the guy should've been, at least, evenly matched with Goku and Vegeta since Zamasu arc.
Clarification on what?
Clarification on How (and why) they keep GoD level so high when it doesn't make any sense. It could make sense if they showed Beerus training but the guy slack off and somehow still effortelessly beat an uber-upgraded Vegeta.
This was already explained by Vegeta and Beerus. Ultra Ego allows them to increase strength indefinitely, it depends on how much damage they can take or how mastered the ability is. It’s basically a technique that rivals Ultra Instinct, which is the angels’ specialty.

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Re: What if Jiren > Belmod has been quietly retconned already???!

Post by Jinto » Sun Jan 02, 2022 1:13 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:50 am
Jinto wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:37 am
Hugo Boss wrote: Sun Jan 02, 2022 10:23 am
Clarification on what?
Clarification on How (and why) they keep GoD level so high when it doesn't make any sense. It could make sense if they showed Beerus training but the guy slack off and somehow still effortelessly beat an uber-upgraded Vegeta.
This was already explained by Vegeta and Beerus. Ultra Ego allows them to increase strength indefinitely, it depends on how much damage they can take or how mastered the ability is. It’s basically a technique that rivals Ultra Instinct, which is the angels’ specialty.
That would explain it but isn't UE exclusive to Vegeta ?

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