Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

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Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TBMx » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm

- Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Thani » Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:57 pm

TBMx wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm - Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.
You can chalk it up to either Vegeta, Toyotaro or Toriyama being hypocrites. But to be fair, what Vegeta said in the end was "i only crave a fair fight". As long as it's fair, he doesn't mind. Fusing is unfair, as is absorbing the ki of your enemies. Destruction, which is merely a, well, destructive power, wouldn't be unfair, I think.

With that in mind, Forced Spirit Fission is perfect for Vegeta, because he can pretty much nullify any "unfairness" his opponents may try to use.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TBMx » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:11 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:57 pm
TBMx wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm - Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.
You can chalk it up to either Vegeta, Toyotaro or Toriyama being hypocrites. But to be fair, what Vegeta said in the end was "i only crave a fair fight". As long as it's fair, he doesn't mind. Fusing is unfair, as is absorbing the ki of your enemies. Destruction, which is merely a, well, destructive power, wouldn't be unfair, I think.

With that in mind, Forced Spirit Fission is perfect for Vegeta, because he can pretty much nullify any "unfairness" his opponents may try to use.
Chapter 50

"Stupid god power, stupid magic spells. Forget instant teleportation! We saiyans pride ourselves on physical might and nothing more. A warrior race has no need for fancy parlour tricks! And yet I've been reduced to this!!" - Vegeta.

If he believes that, why then go seek out a new god power from the one who ordered the extermination of the saiyans?

It just seems like the exact opposite of what he'd do based on his own words and saiyan pride.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:36 pm

TBMx wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI
Where does Vegeta make this statement?

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:58 pm

I think that’s exactly the theme of his current development. Vegeta has to destroy his own preconceptions of how a warrior should be. And he will create a new version of himself, not clinging to dated ideas.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Thani » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:04 pm

TBMx wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:11 pm
Chapter 50

"Stupid god power, stupid magic spells. Forget instant teleportation! We saiyans pride ourselves on physical might and nothing more. A warrior race has no need for fancy parlour tricks! And yet I've been reduced to this!!" - Vegeta.
He really did say that. Huh. That's really weird, since his god power mostly translate to, well, more power. Wonder what Toyo was thinking with that line.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:37 pm

Thani wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:04 pm He really did say that. Huh. That's really weird, since his god power mostly translate to, well, more power. Wonder what Toyo was thinking with that line.
I'm pretty sure that with "God power" he was not referring to the Godly Super Saiyan transformations (which seems to fit what he calls natural / brute strength, since in the final battle he uses his SSBE while claiming that he aims only for a fair fight without relying on the powers of others.) During the arc the term "God power" is used more to refer to the power possessed by Dai Kaioshin responsible for sealing Moro in the past (and later used to refer to that same power that was inherited by Uub / Ultra Instinct.) More specifically, this was the power treated as the key to seal Moro again during the Namek portion of the story and it ended up not working (which is why Vegeta was frustrated when he is forced to flee the fight)

Tbh, it seems a little strange to me that SSG / SSB were taken out of the equation when it comes to this term (since Moro says that the Ultra Instinct was not a mortal ability, despite not saying the same about the other forms that also have God Ki). But well, that's the way they portrayed it I guess

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by SaiyanCosmos » Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:42 pm

To add another one on to that list: Vegeta is reluctant to train with Goku in the time chamber for 3 years in the U6/U7 tournament arc because he thinks they've reached the maximum of their strength. But throughout the TOP, he emphasises that Saiyans don't have limits, implying that they still have lots of room to grow their strength.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Thani » Tue Mar 23, 2021 10:25 am

Basically, and let's be fair here, DB was never really known for it's hard consistency.
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 8:37 pm
I'm pretty sure that with "God power" he was not referring to the Godly Super Saiyan transformations (which seems to fit what he calls natural / brute strength, since in the final battle he uses his SSBE while claiming that he aims only for a fair fight without relying on the powers of others.) During the arc the term "God power" is used more to refer to the power possessed by Dai Kaioshin responsible for sealing Moro in the past (and later used to refer to that same power that was inherited by Uub / Ultra Instinct.) More specifically, this was the power treated as the key to seal Moro again during the Namek portion of the story and it ended up not working (which is why Vegeta was frustrated when he is forced to flee the fight)

Tbh, it seems a little strange to me that SSG / SSB were taken out of the equation when it comes to this term (since Moro says that the Ultra Instinct was not a mortal ability, despite not saying the same about the other forms that also have God Ki). But well, that's the way they portrayed it I guess
Also it always bugged me. Remember when Goku regained the energy to go Blue against Moro, despite having only the ki of his friends and what Vegeta could spare since he was occupied with keeping Moro at bay? Or when Moro could tell that Vegeta would be a fine meal? Or when Piccolo could tell Goku was much stronger in Blue than last time? But no one could sense Ultra Instinct or Merus?

It feels almost like the god forms... Doesn't have god ki anymore.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by EGonzo » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:45 pm

I've had a big problem with manga Vegeta since the Black arc, in that he's always changing his kind and going in circles yet the story always treats it as him growing.

* Shows he cares about his family enough to snap when Beerus hits Bulma, yet doesn't care that Black killed Future Bulma and tortured his son for over a year.

*Sjows he can set aside his pride for the greater good, yet is content with dying against Fused Zamasu as long as his pride is intact until he hears Trunks' dumb speech

*Asked Whis to train him, and learned under him for years, then claims he's never needed a teacher, THEN goes get himself a teacher again in the next arc

I don't have a problem with these moments per se, even if I'm not a fan of most, but the way the manga paints them as big moments of growth when it's just Vegeta running in circles over and over.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Apr 06, 2021 7:51 pm

TBMx wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:43 pm - Vegeta's said he needs no mentor
Goes and gets a mentor, the one who ordered the extinction of his people no less.

- Vegeta said he hates the mindlessness of UI and changing the way he is.
Goes for a technique thats requires elimination of all thoughts but one.

- Vegeta said he hates techniques and god powers and prefers to settle things with brute natural strength.
Goes for an even higher god power.

Vegeta is clearly portrayed as having lost faith in god powers and wanting to give it up, saying he preferred to settle things with brute, natural strength.

Okay then, so why not have him give up the god line and go for SS4? Its a fan favourite. They already brought the likes of Broly back where they made allusions to it, so why not?

I don't get why they can't have his actions match his words.
I still laugh at the fist point. Toyo does this whole stupid speech at the ToP and he immediately contradicts it in the next arc.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Cipher » Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:55 am

He said he was going to choose a different path of development from Goku/UI and has stuck to that.

He said he was remorseful of his actions on Namek and prior and has stuck to that in his reflections on and guilt over the Saiyans’ actions as a race.

I’m not sure what you want other than the specific fanservice of him going SS4, dressed up as a critique on the writing.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:21 am

Cipher wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 4:55 am He said he was going to choose a different path of development from Goku/UI and has stuck to that.

He said he was remorseful of his actions on Namek and prior and has stuck to that in his reflections on and guilt over the Saiyans’ actions as a race.

I’m not sure what you want other than the specific fanservice of him going SS4, dressed up as a critique on the writing.
This. Honestly this complaining about Vegeta is starting to annoy me at this point. Vegeta is an awesomely written character! Who even wants SSJ4 at this point.. Seems like a FAR WORSE option than gaining “God of Destruction” powers.. Which is the route that Dragon Ball Super has established from the beginning and what it’s ALL about. So it makes perfect sense that Vegeta was eventually going to end up following the far superior “God route” than the far inferior “Monkey route” of GT.. Such lowly brutes and mortals. Not a fan of it at all!

If Vegeta wants to remain Goku’s ETERNAL inferior, he should choose SSJ4!

Lol...

God path >>>>>>>>>>> Mortal path!

Any time, any day!

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:44 pm

Vegeta giving up on his oaths has been that way from the beginning.

Perhaps his character depth distracts people from him actually being a parody of the shonen rival?
"Don't take pleasure in destruction!" / "I will not let you destroy my world!"
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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Lionel » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:17 pm

Vegeta has proven inadequate at meeting his self-imposed standards for some time now. I can't say he impresses much except for those rare glimpses into his, ironically enough, humanity such as when he expressed remorse for the slaughtering of the Namekians and also when he shows appreciation for his family. It's a shame those sentiments aren't applied all of the like in the Future Trunks arc with his future counterparts as someone else mentioned.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:51 am

Lionel wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:17 pm Vegeta has proven inadequate at meeting his self-imposed standards for some time now. I can't say he impresses much except for those rare glimpses into his, ironically enough, humanity such as when he expressed remorse for the slaughtering of the Namekians and also when he shows appreciation for his family. It's a shame those sentiments aren't applied all of the like in the Future Trunks arc with his future counterparts as someone else mentioned.
I am not sure what people are talking about of course Vegeta cares about Trunks & Bulma in the Future Trunks arc. He doesn’t need to mention it every second.

And Vegeta does stick to his standards. He is saying he wants to do something different from UI which he is. Where did Vegeta not stick to any self imposed standards?

The OP misinterpreted what he meant by “god power”. He was talking out of frustration at not being able to beat Moro and having to rely on “tricks” instead of raw power like how a Saiyan usually fights. But he was willing to do that to beat Moro which is why he went to Yadrat. Being frustrated at a situation but still doing what you need is not going back on what he said.


Destruction on the other hand is something that relies on raw power so I would say it does suit Vegeta more than UI and the “God forms” that he uses are Saiyan forms last time I checked.


The only line I’ll acknowledge was dumb was the teacher line. It might be true Vegeta didn’t have Masters in the past but obviously he has learned things from different people since then and still has things to learn.


But of course this is just another let’s say how bad Vegeta is thread :roll:

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TBMx » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:08 pm

Kinokima wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:51 am
Lionel wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:17 pm Vegeta has proven inadequate at meeting his self-imposed standards for some time now. I can't say he impresses much except for those rare glimpses into his, ironically enough, humanity such as when he expressed remorse for the slaughtering of the Namekians and also when he shows appreciation for his family. It's a shame those sentiments aren't applied all of the like in the Future Trunks arc with his future counterparts as someone else mentioned.
I am not sure what people are talking about of course Vegeta cares about Trunks & Bulma in the Future Trunks arc. He doesn’t need to mention it every second.

And Vegeta does stick to his standards. He is saying he wants to do something different from UI which he is. Where did Vegeta not stick to any self imposed standards?

The OP misinterpreted what he meant by “god power”. He was talking out of frustration at not being able to beat Moro and having to rely on “tricks” instead of raw power like how a Saiyan usually fights. But he was willing to do that to beat Moro which is why he went to Yadrat. Being frustrated at a situation but still doing what you need is not going back on what he said.


Destruction on the other hand is something that relies on raw power so I would say it does suit Vegeta more than UI and the “God forms” that he uses are Saiyan forms last time I checked.


The only line I’ll acknowledge was dumb was the teacher line. It might be true Vegeta didn’t have Masters in the past but obviously he has learned things from different people since then and still has things to learn.


But of course this is just another let’s say how bad Vegeta is thread :roll:
Vegeta specifically said purely physical might. The same physical might his saiyans prided themselves on. Having to think about destruction only, and discard unnecessary thoughts, and having to destroy and remake himself to use this god power is hardly the pure physical might his people prided themselves on.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Kinokima » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:36 pm

TBMx wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:08 pm
Kinokima wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:51 am
Lionel wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:17 pm Vegeta has proven inadequate at meeting his self-imposed standards for some time now. I can't say he impresses much except for those rare glimpses into his, ironically enough, humanity such as when he expressed remorse for the slaughtering of the Namekians and also when he shows appreciation for his family. It's a shame those sentiments aren't applied all of the like in the Future Trunks arc with his future counterparts as someone else mentioned.
I am not sure what people are talking about of course Vegeta cares about Trunks & Bulma in the Future Trunks arc. He doesn’t need to mention it every second.

And Vegeta does stick to his standards. He is saying he wants to do something different from UI which he is. Where did Vegeta not stick to any self imposed standards?

The OP misinterpreted what he meant by “god power”. He was talking out of frustration at not being able to beat Moro and having to rely on “tricks” instead of raw power like how a Saiyan usually fights. But he was willing to do that to beat Moro which is why he went to Yadrat. Being frustrated at a situation but still doing what you need is not going back on what he said.


Destruction on the other hand is something that relies on raw power so I would say it does suit Vegeta more than UI and the “God forms” that he uses are Saiyan forms last time I checked.


The only line I’ll acknowledge was dumb was the teacher line. It might be true Vegeta didn’t have Masters in the past but obviously he has learned things from different people since then and still has things to learn.


But of course this is just another let’s say how bad Vegeta is thread :roll:
Vegeta specifically said purely physical might. The same physical might his saiyans prided themselves on. Having to think about destruction only, and discard unnecessary thoughts, and having to destroy and remake himself to use this god power is hardly the pure physical might his people prided themselves on.

The Saiyans literally destroyed planets for a living. They lived destructions and most likely didn’t have any stray thoughts of guilt that Vegeta harbors now. So I would argue “destruction”
Very much does fit the Saiyans and is tied to pure physical might. Even in the demonstration Beerus gave we saw the raw power of destruction.

Now I certainly don’t think Vegeta is going to go back to who he or who the Saiyans were before destroying planets as a cold ruthless warrior but he can now remake himself and use the power to destroy for something positive.

Besides the emptying your mind being similar UI and Destruction are not the same principle at all. And Vegeta having trouble with UI does not mean he would have the same struggles learning Destruction.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by TBMx » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:31 am

Kinokima wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:51 am

I am not sure what people are talking about of course Vegeta cares about Trunks & Bulma in the Future Trunks arc. He doesn’t need to mention it every second.

And Vegeta does stick to his standards. He is saying he wants to do something different from UI which he is. Where did Vegeta not stick to any self imposed standards?

The OP misinterpreted what he meant by “god power”. He was talking out of frustration at not being able to beat Moro and having to rely on “tricks” instead of raw power like how a Saiyan usually fights. But he was willing to do that to beat Moro which is why he went to Yadrat. Being frustrated at a situation but still doing what you need is not going back on what he said.


Destruction on the other hand is something that relies on raw power so I would say it does suit Vegeta more than UI and the “God forms” that he uses are Saiyan forms last time I checked.


The only line I’ll acknowledge was dumb was the teacher line. It might be true Vegeta didn’t have Masters in the past but obviously he has learned things from different people since then and still has things to learn.


But of course this is just another let’s say how bad Vegeta is thread :roll:
Vegeta specifically said purely physical might. The same physical might his saiyans prided themselves on. Having to think about destruction only, and discard unnecessary thoughts, and having to destroy and remake himself to use this god power is hardly the pure physical might his people prided themselves on.
[/quote]

The Saiyans literally destroyed planets for a living.
When they worked for Frieza. Nice to see him going backward as a character. But its not purely physical might.
They lived destructions and most likely didn’t have any stray thoughts of guilt that Vegeta harbors now. So I would argue “destruction”
Very much does fit the Saiyans and is tied to pure physical might. Even in the demonstration Beerus gave we saw the raw power of destruction.
The instant a mental component was introduced to the hakai god power, it ceased to be purely physical might by definition.
Besides the emptying your mind being similar UI and Destruction are not the same principle at all. And Vegeta having trouble with UI does not mean he would have the same struggles learning Destruction.
UI = eliminating all thoughts in battle.
Destruction = eliminating all thoughts but one in battle.

The fact that Vegeta struggles with one and not the other is arbitrary.

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Re: Why can't they ever write Vegeta following through on his words?

Post by Kinokima » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:12 am

TBMx wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:31 am UI = eliminating all thoughts in battle.
Destruction = eliminating all thoughts but one in battle.

The fact that Vegeta struggles with one and not the other is arbitrary.

Whis as I recall early on said that Vegeta may find it harder to move without thinking in battle (and I can’t even find this scene in the manga. Though it is hard to go through all the chapters so I may have missed it) .

But in the manga TOP Vegeta NEVER said he was not going to focus on UI because he cannot eliminate all thoughts in battle. And Whis just said Vegeta’s signature style may not be suited to UI. Again nothing about not being able to eliminate all thoughts but one.

And again you are saying that Destruction does not have to do with physical power which clearly it does. Vegeta said Saiyans prided themselves on physical might not fancy parlor tricks. He meant things like insta-transmission, sealing the enemy away...(in other words not fighting) which is what Saiyans do. Again you completely misunderstood that scene (which Vegeta was just venting in frustration because of the Moro situation) and are trying to say destruction goes against what a Saiyan does but clearly it does not based on their past

And obviously Vegeta is not going to turn evil again and destroy planets . But who is to say he can’t channel the power of destruction for good?

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