Should Zamasu return?

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SupremeKai25
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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:48 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:46 am That “time limit” was over when it was over.. (No pun intended). There WAS no time limit or problem anymore after it expired and Goku Black and Zamasu “transformed” into Fused Zamasu again. They had combined on a “molecular level”. And hence became perfect with no downsides at all. It became permanent after that. I’m talking about the end ofcourse, I would’ve thought that was obvious. Did you even read the manga???
Zamasu was immortal after abandoning his flawed body and merging with the cosmos, did you even watch the anime?????

Go take some breath of fresh air because you're clearly under some pressure.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Grimlock » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:31 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:13 amI mean, half of Fused Zamasu is literally composed of Black, plus he knows all of his abilities and techniques since, again, he is a fusion of Black and another Zamasu. I don't really see the difference from the perspective of story potential. The only possible difference is that Black was more Saiyan-like due to the influence of Goku's body, while Fused Zamasu had more of the other Zamasu's personality.
You talk as if I didn't already address that I would like to see Merged Zamasu too:
Grimlock wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 5:13 pmI think it might be interesting to see more of Goku Black and/or Merged Zamasu.
When I say Zamasu on his own, I mean Zamasu on his own. This one.
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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:47 am

We have plenty of living, interesting characters from this and other universes waiting for a second chance, not to mention stuff that has not been explored at all yet like the Demon Realm.

Before starting again with the revival of dead enemies trope, we should bring back those guys instead of rehashing stuff, they haven't ran out of ideas yet.

People first in line before dead people:
Broly
Jiren
Freeza
Hit
U6 saiyans
Makaioshin
Zalama
Other hakaishin

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:54 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:47 am We have plenty of living, interesting characters from this and other universes waiting for a second chance, not to mention stuff that has not been explored at all yet like the Demon Realm.

Before starting again with the revival of dead enemies trope, we should bring back those guys instead of rehashing stuff, they haven't ran out of ideas yet.

People first in line before dead people:
Broly
Jiren
Freeza
Hit
U6 saiyans
Makaioshin
Zalama
Other hakaishin
Half of those people would probably benefit from Zamasu coming back, because their stories are somehow intertwined or they have potential for story interactions...

- Frieza: Both he and Zamasu despise Saiyans, so they could form a temporary alliance to kill them, also Zamasu has no problem working with ningens to further his own goals (as evidenced by his alliance with Hearts in Heroes).
- Makaioshin: Self-explanatory, they are Kais born evil, so they'd have a natural story affinity with Zamasu, the Kai gone rogue. As enemies, since videogame interactions tell us that Zamasu would absolutely despise the fetid Makaioshins.
- Zalama: He might hold a grudge against Zamasu for using his Super Dragon Balls to rebel against the Gods and subsequently destroying them.
- Rumsshi: He'd probably get more spotlight if Zamasu came back, as the Destroyer of U10 who failed to do his duty and had to be bailed out of trouble by Beerus.

It's exactly the opposite of what you're saying, an enemy coming back from the past would be a GREAT opportunity to give more spotlight to living characters who aren't doing much. All it takes is some creativity.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:22 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 1:54 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:47 am We have plenty of living, interesting characters from this and other universes waiting for a second chance, not to mention stuff that has not been explored at all yet like the Demon Realm.

Before starting again with the revival of dead enemies trope, we should bring back those guys instead of rehashing stuff, they haven't ran out of ideas yet.

People first in line before dead people:
Broly
Jiren
Freeza
Hit
U6 saiyans
Makaioshin
Zalama
Other hakaishin
Half of those people would probably benefit from Zamasu coming back, because their stories are somehow intertwined or they have potential for story interactions...

- Frieza: Both he and Zamasu despise Saiyans, so they could form a temporary alliance to kill them, also Zamasu has no problem working with ningens to further his own goals (as evidenced by his alliance with Hearts in Heroes).
- Makaioshin: Self-explanatory, they are Kais born evil, so they'd have a natural story affinity with Zamasu, the Kai gone rogue. As enemies, since videogame interactions tell us that Zamasu would absolutely despise the fetid Makaioshins.
- Zalama: He might hold a grudge against Zamasu for using his Super Dragon Balls to rebel against the Gods and subsequently destroying them.
- Rumsshi: He'd probably get more spotlight if Zamasu came back, as the Destroyer of U10 who failed to do his duty and had to be bailed out of trouble by Beerus.

It's exactly the opposite of what you're saying, an enemy coming back from the past would be a GREAT opportunity to give more spotlight to living characters who aren't doing much. All it takes is some creativity.
It really isn't, all those characters exist on their own merit, none of them would need Zamasu to return in order to get a compelling story, in fact it would be retreading on old, done beats, instead of introducing new conflicts. We can't keep telling the same grudges over and over. And it would also mean this living characters would be vehicles for someone else who is the focus because you can't bring someone back just to move them aside later, when they have enough to be the ones putting stuff in motion.


-Freeza has much better things to work with, Broly for instance, whatever this arc has in store for him, or even working with other universes. He only is in the list because he was revived and Granolah hates him, but he should really die once and for all.

-The Demon Realm is much richer than sticking with a dead kai gone rogue, videogames have explored some of its possibilities. It's interesting on itself without the need to rely on someone else, Dabura would be a much better choice in the unnecessary trope of bringing dead villains back.

-Zalama should be used for a better scenario than a wish granted years ago, considering he might be one of the most mysterious figures.

-Conflicts involving Hakashins should move forward from the static, king-like status they've been holding, Beerus seemed to be heading that way in the past arc. Facing actual threats or going rogue themselves, something unheard of and that would require the attention of the other 11 GoDs. No need to bring anybody back for it to work.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:39 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:48 am
GodVegetto91 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:46 am That “time limit” was over when it was over.. (No pun intended). There WAS no time limit or problem anymore after it expired and Goku Black and Zamasu “transformed” into Fused Zamasu again. They had combined on a “molecular level”. And hence became perfect with no downsides at all. It became permanent after that. I’m talking about the end ofcourse, I would’ve thought that was obvious. Did you even read the manga???
Zamasu was immortal after abandoning his flawed body and merging with the cosmos, did you even watch the anime?????

Go take some breath of fresh air because you're clearly under some pressure.
I DID watch the Anime. But I was talking about Merged Zamasu’s body in the Manga.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:06 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 2:22 pm It really isn't, all those characters exist on their own merit, none of them would need Zamasu to return in order to get a compelling story, in fact it would be retreading on old, done beats, instead of introducing new conflicts. We can't keep telling the same grudges over and over. And it would also mean this living characters would be vehicles for someone else who is the focus because you can't bring someone back just to move them aside later, when they have enough to be the ones putting stuff in motion.


-Freeza has much better things to work with, Broly for instance, whatever this arc has in store for him, or even working with other universes. He only is in the list because he was revived and Granolah hates him, but he should really die once and for all.

-The Demon Realm is much richer than sticking with a dead kai gone rogue, videogames have explored some of its possibilities. It's interesting on itself without the need to rely on someone else, Dabura would be a much better choice in the unnecessary trope of bringing dead villains back.

-Zalama should be used for a better scenario than a wish granted years ago, considering he might be one of the most mysterious figures.

-Conflicts involving Hakashins should move forward from the static, king-like status they've been holding, Beerus seemed to be heading that way in the past arc. Facing actual threats or going rogue themselves, something unheard of and that would require the attention of the other 11 GoDs. No need to bring anybody back for it to work.
It's funny that you would mention Frieza and Broly, because that contradicts your entire argument that "living people deserve more spotlight than deceased villains".

Frieza is a villain who came back thrice after his arc was over, so why do you claim that he has story potential and is deserving of more screentime? Shouldn't you despise him because he already came back thrice after his arc was meant to be over?

Same thing for Broly, he's an old movie villain who came back and was reimagined into canon, shouldn't you despise the fact that he took the spot of Yamoshi or another new Saiyan character that could have served as the mysterious villain of the new movie?

If Frieza and Broly could come back and still offer new storylines and potential interactions with other characters, then so can Zamasu, that's objectively a possibility. People rolled their eyes when it was revealed Frieza would come back once again for the ToP, but I had faith in the writers and knew Frieza could offer some more drama, and I was right. A villain coming back doesn't mean the writers will just rehash the same conflicts and plotlines.

You're dealing in absolutes. Just because Zamasu came back and was involved in, for example, the Makaioshin plot, doesn't mean that the ENTIRE plot would have to revolve around him... he could merely serve as a secondary antagonist or a third party. Just like Frieza coming back for the ToP didn't mean that the entire Tournament revolved around him. I imagine that if we had a Demon Realm arc, then Zamasu would sort of serve as a neutral party/secondary antagonist, sort of like the Heeters band in the Granolah arc. He'd wage his own war against the demons because he despises them, while at the same time opposing the ningen protagonists.

In fact Zamasu coming back would be a double-edged sword for HIM, not for the other characters. Because the writers could bring back Zamasu just to hype up the protagonist or the next villain by humiliating him, like Toriyama did with Frieza in the Androids arc (he served no purpose but to hype up Trunks, he was humiliated and obliterated). So, depending on the writers' intentions, Zamasu's return could actually hype up other characters at the expense of his own. Which is what I have been saying since the beginning:
Should he come back? That will depend on what Toriyama plans for his character. If Toriyama wants him back just to humiliate him, then No, he shouldn't come back. I wouldn't want to watch my favourite character humiliated on screen, a feeling that Vegeta fans can no doubt comprehend.
Which is actually what happened with Heroes... I liked more screentime for Zamasu, but I wasn't happy with how Heroes treated Zamasu. Aside from when he single-handedly kept U7 at bay (which was a very good moment for him), he was beaten and overshadowed by Jiren during the U11 fight, and then was hax'd away from the story to hype up Hearts, the main villain. So really whether Zamasu's return would come at the expense of other characters or not would depend on the role that Zamasu would have... if he came back as main villain in a sort of "Resurrection of Zamasu" movie, then Yeah, he'd probably stomp on a lot of other characters to get hyped up as main villain. If he came back as secondary villain? Well, we saw with Heroes what kind of treatment he'd most likely receive.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:31 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:06 pm It's funny that you would mention Frieza and Broly, because that contradicts your entire argument that "living people deserve more spotlight than deceased villains".

Frieza is a villain who came back thrice after his arc was over, so why do you claim that he has story potential and is deserving of more screentime? Shouldn't you despise him because he already came back thrice after his arc was meant to be over?

Same thing for Broly, he's an old movie villain who came back and was reimagined into canon, shouldn't you despise the fact that he took the spot of Yamoshi or another new Saiyan character that could have served as the mysterious villain of the new movie?

If Frieza and Broly could come back and still offer new storylines and potential interactions with other characters, then so can Zamasu, that's objectively a possibility. People rolled their eyes when it was revealed Frieza would come back once again for the ToP, but I had faith in the writers and knew Frieza could offer some more drama, and I was right. A villain coming back doesn't mean the writers will just rehash the same conflicts and plotlines.
The bolded paragraph tells me you didn't read my entire post, because I literally said: He only is in the list because he was revived and Granolah hates him, but he should really die once and for all.. I didn't bring him back, but he is here so we'll have to deal with him, instead of keeping him in the background doing kami knows what ad nauseaum.

I certainly was against the idea of retelling a movie villain I never even liked. But he wasn't brought back like Freeza or what you guys are proposing for Zamasu, he was re-imagined, and I do like what they came up with, so why would I despise an improved character who is still alive and can provide for several and original plot points because he was never explored even in the original movies??



SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:06 pm
You're dealing in absolutes. Just because Zamasu came back and was involved in, for example, the Makaioshin plot, doesn't mean that the ENTIRE plot would have to revolve around him... he could merely serve as a secondary antagonist or a third party. Just like Frieza coming back for the ToP didn't mean that the entire Tournament revolved around him. I imagine that if we had a Demon Realm arc, then Zamasu would sort of serve as a neutral party/secondary antagonist, sort of like the Heeters band in the Granolah arc. He'd wage his own war against the demons because he despises them, while at the same time opposing the ningen protagonists.

In fact Zamasu coming back would be a double-edged sword for HIM, not for the other characters. Because the writers could bring back Zamasu just to hype up the protagonist or the next villain by humiliating him, like Toriyama did with Frieza in the Androids arc (he served no purpose but to hype up Trunks, he was humiliated and obliterated). So, depending on the writers' intentions, Zamasu's return could actually hype up other characters at the expense of his own. Which is what I have been saying since the beginning:
Should he come back? That will depend on what Toriyama plans for his character. If Toriyama wants him back just to humiliate him, then No, he shouldn't come back. I wouldn't want to watch my favourite character humiliated on screen, a feeling that Vegeta fans can no doubt comprehend.
Which is actually what happened with Heroes... I liked more screentime for Zamasu, but I wasn't happy with how Heroes treated Zamasu. Aside from when he single-handedly kept U7 at bay (which was a very good moment for him), he was beaten and overshadowed by Jiren during the U11 fight, and then was hax'd away from the story to hype up Hearts, the main villain. So really whether Zamasu's return would come at the expense of other characters or not would depend on the role that Zamasu would have... if he came as main villain in a sort of "Resurrection of Zamasu" movie, then Yeah, he'd probably stomp on a lot of other characters to get hyped up as main villain. If he came back as secondary villain? Well, we saw with Heroes what kind of treatment he'd most likely receive.
What's the point in bringing someone back and not even have them as the main focus?? that's fan-service. Only because you liked the character? Just to have more characters in a certain plot? didn't the Moro arc served as proof that TOO MANY characters doesn't mean BETTER stories?
Freeza worked at the ToP because he was an ally and could become a traitor anytime, and ended up being vital. That doesn't mean we should use that template for every other villain we miss.
There's no conflict left to solve with Zamasu, there's nothing interesting or left to deal with in order to justify a revival. Freeza didn't have one and we've seen how boring RoF was.

To hype new characters you don't bring left-in-the-dust characters who died 4 arcs ago, you use the previous arc foe for that, or you change this up and use Beerus.

There are enough living characters in DB right now to justify NOT bringing back yet another dead villain whose journey is over.
Sure, with creativy you could even bring back Babidi and have him be a great villain, but that's my point... why keep going back when you can go forward with the many characters DBS introduced and keeps introducing???

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:40 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:31 pm The bolded paragraph tells me you didn't read my entire post, because I literally said: He only is in the list because he was revived and Granolah hates him, but he should really die once and for all.. I didn't bring him back, but he is here so we'll have to deal with him, instead of keeping him in the background doing kami knows what ad nauseaum.
You contradict yourself... You admitted that Frieza has story potential and deserves more screentime which, following your logic, shouldn't be possible as he's a former villain who come back.
I certainly was against the idea of retelling a movie villain I never even liked. But he wasn't brought back like Freeza or what you guys are proposing for Zamasu, he was re-imagined, and I do like what they came up with, so why would I despise an improved character who is still alive and can provide for several and original plot points because he was never explored even in the original movies??
So why would you automatically despise any possible return of Zamasu just because he's a former villain who came back?
What's the point in bringing someone back and not even have them as the main focus?? that's fan-service.
So Frieza coming back in the Androids arc was fan-service for Frieza fans?
Only because you liked the character? Just to have more characters in a certain plot?
Aside from the fact that that's a perfectly fine reason to provide... "Should Zamasu return?", "Yes, because he's my fave" is a perfectly valid reason, I also explained how he could have a specific role in a hypothetical Demon Realm realm. Dabura could also come back, but he'd come back as a member of the Demon side, while Zamasu wouldn't as he despises the Demons, that's my point. Comparing Zamasu to Dabura is pointless, they'd have different roles, they are very different characters.
Freeza worked at the ToP because he was an ally and could become a traitor anytime, and ended up being vital. That doesn't mean we should use that template for every other villain we miss.
I didn't even suggest that Zamasu would become an ally of the protagonists...
There's no conflict left to solve with Zamasu, there's nothing interesting or left to deal with in order to justify a revival. Freeza didn't have one and we've seen how boring RoF was.
I mean, speak for yourself, I didn't find RoF boring.
To hype new characters you don't bring left-in-the-dust characters who died 4 arcs ago, you use the previous arc foe for that, or you change this up and use Beerus.
"Left-in-the-dust" character when he's literally the only character who achieved perfect immortality, so if anything he could be used to hype up the main villain, which is literally what Heroes did.
There are enough living characters in DB right now to justify NOT bringing back yet another dead villain whose journey is over.
Sure, with creativy you could even bring back Babidi and have him be a great villain, but that's my point... why keep going back when you can go forward with the many characters DBS introduced and keeps introducing???
I have no clue why you keep shifting the focus to other characters when this thread is about Zamasu, if you feel like these other characters are more deserving of screentime then go open threads about them. This thread is about Zamasu's potential return, so I don't get why we have to talk about other characters.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:25 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:40 pm
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 3:31 pm The bolded paragraph tells me you didn't read my entire post, because I literally said: He only is in the list because he was revived and Granolah hates him, but he should really die once and for all.. I didn't bring him back, but he is here so we'll have to deal with him, instead of keeping him in the background doing kami knows what ad nauseaum.
You contradict yourself... You admitted that Frieza has story potential and deserves more screentime which, following your logic, shouldn't be possible as he's a former villain who come back.
I certainly was against the idea of retelling a movie villain I never even liked. But he wasn't brought back like Freeza or what you guys are proposing for Zamasu, he was re-imagined, and I do like what they came up with, so why would I despise an improved character who is still alive and can provide for several and original plot points because he was never explored even in the original movies??
So why would you automatically despise any possible return of Zamasu just because he's a former villain who came back?
What's the point in bringing someone back and not even have them as the main focus?? that's fan-service.
So Frieza coming back in the Androids arc was fan-service for Frieza fans?
Only because you liked the character? Just to have more characters in a certain plot?
Aside from the fact that that's a perfectly fine reason to provide... "Should Zamasu return?", "Yes, because he's my fave" is a perfectly valid reason, I also explained how he could have a specific role in a hypothetical Demon Realm realm. Dabura could also come back, but he'd come back as a member of the Demon side, while Zamasu wouldn't as he despises the Demons, that's my point. Comparing Zamasu to Dabura is pointless, they'd have different roles, they are very different characters.
Freeza worked at the ToP because he was an ally and could become a traitor anytime, and ended up being vital. That doesn't mean we should use that template for every other villain we miss.
I didn't even suggest that Zamasu would become an ally of the protagonists...
There's no conflict left to solve with Zamasu, there's nothing interesting or left to deal with in order to justify a revival. Freeza didn't have one and we've seen how boring RoF was.
I mean, speak for yourself, I didn't find RoF boring.
To hype new characters you don't bring left-in-the-dust characters who died 4 arcs ago, you use the previous arc foe for that, or you change this up and use Beerus.
"Left-in-the-dust" character when he's literally the only character who achieved perfect immortality, so if anything he could be used to hype up the main villain, which is literally what Heroes did.
There are enough living characters in DB right now to justify NOT bringing back yet another dead villain whose journey is over.
Sure, with creativy you could even bring back Babidi and have him be a great villain, but that's my point... why keep going back when you can go forward with the many characters DBS introduced and keeps introducing???
I have no clue why you keep shifting the focus to other characters when this thread is about Zamasu, if you feel like these other characters are more deserving of screentime then go open threads about them. This thread is about Zamasu's potential return, so I don't get why we have to talk about other characters.
1) Now you are putting words in my mouth and keep not reading my post in its entirety. I never admitted Freeza has potential and that he deserves more screentime, please quote me on that if you can.
I listed him because he is alive, and the story is involving Freeza through Granolah, in an unoriginal way. Like it or not, he is still alive and there's something in store for him apparently. Storywise: being alive >> not being alive. Simple as that.

2) because Zamasu already existed in the main continuity and Broly did not? Goku had no idea who this dude was because he didn't exist in canon, but he'd know who Zamasu is if he is brought back.

3) Freeza was not brought back in Z because he never left, he didn't die, he survived and came to Earth to get his revenge. It's part of his personality, nothing to do with fan-service. Getting several breaks is a recurring trope in DB, from Piccolo to Moro... until they die, but now you are making a case for giving more breaks to people who had already died.

4) well, no, one thing is to want something, another thing is how interesting for the story it can be to keep reviving people instead of moving forward and exploring other characters or universes.

5) so? you mentioned Freeza's third coming in the ToP and I stated why his particular case worked even when we might be sick of him.

6) I always speak for myself, you don't have to worry about that. The level of entertainment that varies from viewer to viewer has nothing to do with what RoF was in a narrative sense: barely something, just a bout that led nowhere.

7) He still is Perfect Blue level from 4 arcs ago, also the only immortal to ever manage to die... villains are convincingly hyped through power. Bringing back someone to serve for someone else's benefit isn't interesting when you have much stronger characters for that. And Hearts was already hyped when he effortlessly took down Jiren, the strongest character at the time.

8 ) Because I'm excercising my right to explain why I don't think he should return?? making a case that we have many living characters who have not yet been explored, with interesting backgrounds, and should be first in line??
The OP did say "what do you guys think?", he didn't say only Zamasu-related posts, please.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:26 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 4:25 pm 1) Now you are putting words in my mouth and keep not reading my post in its entirety. I never admitted Freeza has potential and that he deserves more screentime, please quote me on that if you can.
You literally listed him as one of the "interesting" characters who are waiting for a "second chance" (implying that they have a lot of underused story potential), this was your original post on this thread by the way. It's literally the first thing you said on the subject.
2) because Zamasu already existed in the main continuity and Broly did not? Goku had no idea who this dude was because he didn't exist in canon, but he'd know who Zamasu is if he is brought back.
And that would make for poorer writing because?
3) Freeza was not brought back in Z because he never left, he didn't die, he survived and came to Earth to get his revenge. It's part of his personality, nothing to do with fan-service. Getting several breaks is a recurring trope in DB, from Piccolo to Moro... until they die, but now you are making a case for giving more breaks to people who had already died.
He could have perfectly died at the end of the Frieza arc, Toriyama kept him alive to bring him back in the following arc and have him be humiliated by the protagonist. That's basically the same thing as dying and being brought back. The fact that Frieza never died doesn't change the fact that he was defeated in one arc, and brought back in the next arc to serve as fodder for the protagonist. You're focusing on details that are irrelevant to my point.

And if we want to get technical, there's still one version of Zamasu that is alive, which is the Zamasu from Cell timeline. Or they can just say that Zeno never put down Fused Zamasu for good as I explained earlier, it wouldn't even be such an egregious asspull.
4) well, no, one thing is to want something, another thing is how interesting for the story it can be to keep reviving people instead of moving forward and exploring other characters or universes.
And I explained how Zamasu could play an interesting role in the hypothetical Demon Realm arc.
5) so? you mentioned Freeza's third coming in the ToP and I stated why his particular case worked even when we might be sick of him.
I mentioned Frieza's involvement in the ToP arc as an example of a former villain coming back to present new drama and interactions (like his alliance with Frost and his desire to dethrone the Gods)... not as an example of a villain coming back to team up with the protagonists. Point being that the writers don't have to rehash former conflicts and plots just because they're bringing back a former villain.
6) I always speak for myself, you don't have to worry about that. The level of entertainment that varies from viewer to viewer has nothing to do with what RoF was in a narrative sense: barely something, just a bout that led nowhere.
Are you sure you were speaking only for yourself when you said that "we" all found RoF boring?
7) He still is Perfect Blue level from 4 arcs ago, also the only immortal to ever manage to die... villains are convincingly hyped through power. Bringing back someone to serve for someone else's benefit isn't interesting when you have much stronger characters for that. And Hearts was already hyped when he effortlessly took down Jiren, the strongest character at the time.
Hearts was hyped as the Ultimate Godslayer when he effortlessly erased Zamasu, an immortal God who managed to survive even Zeno. That was a form of building up the threat posed by Hearts (main villain) at the expense of Zamasu (secondary villain).

And power levels are meaningless anyway, they are always meaningless when it comes to story. There are many ways to use a certain character as sacrificial lamb without involving power levels.

Point being that your fear of Zamasu taking up all the spotlight if he came back is irrational, because in the worst cases a villain can be brought back just to serve as fodder to build up someone else's hype.
8 ) Because I'm excercising my right to explain why I don't think he should return?? making a case that we have many living characters who have not yet been explored, with interesting backgrounds, and should be first in line??
The OP did say "what do you guys think?", he didn't say only Zamasu-related posts, please.
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If these characters have been left in the dust for years, then maybe they aren't that interesting to begin with.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:20 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 5:26 pm You literally listed him as one of the "interesting" characters who are waiting for a "second chance" (implying that they have a lot of underused story potential), this was your original post on this thread by the way. It's literally the first thing you said on the subject.
2) because Zamasu already existed in the main continuity and Broly did not? Goku had no idea who this dude was because he didn't exist in canon, but he'd know who Zamasu is if he is brought back.
And that would make for poorer writing because?
3) Freeza was not brought back in Z because he never left, he didn't die, he survived and came to Earth to get his revenge. It's part of his personality, nothing to do with fan-service. Getting several breaks is a recurring trope in DB, from Piccolo to Moro... until they die, but now you are making a case for giving more breaks to people who had already died.
He could have perfectly died at the end of the Frieza arc, Toriyama kept him alive to bring him back in the following arc and have him be humiliated by the protagonist. That's basically the same thing as dying and being brought back. The fact that Frieza never died doesn't change the fact that he was defeated in one arc, and brought back in the next arc to serve as fodder for the protagonist. You're focusing on details that are irrelevant to my point.

And if we want to get technical, there's still one version of Zamasu that is alive, which is the Zamasu from Cell timeline. Or they can just say that Zeno never put down Fused Zamasu for good as I explained earlier, it wouldn't even be such an egregious asspull.
4) well, no, one thing is to want something, another thing is how interesting for the story it can be to keep reviving people instead of moving forward and exploring other characters or universes.
And I explained how Zamasu could play an interesting role in the hypothetical Demon Realm arc.
5) so? you mentioned Freeza's third coming in the ToP and I stated why his particular case worked even when we might be sick of him.
I mentioned Frieza's involvement in the ToP arc as an example of a former villain coming back to present new drama and interactions (like his alliance with Frost and his desire to dethrone the Gods)... not as an example of a villain coming back to team up with the protagonists. Point being that the writers don't have to rehash former conflicts and plots just because they're bringing back a former villain.
6) I always speak for myself, you don't have to worry about that. The level of entertainment that varies from viewer to viewer has nothing to do with what RoF was in a narrative sense: barely something, just a bout that led nowhere.
Are you sure you were speaking only for yourself when you said that "we" all found RoF boring?
7) He still is Perfect Blue level from 4 arcs ago, also the only immortal to ever manage to die... villains are convincingly hyped through power. Bringing back someone to serve for someone else's benefit isn't interesting when you have much stronger characters for that. And Hearts was already hyped when he effortlessly took down Jiren, the strongest character at the time.
Hearts was hyped as the Ultimate Godslayer when he effortlessly erased Zamasu, an immortal God who managed to survive even Zeno. That was a form of building up the threat posed by Hearts (main villain) at the expense of Zamasu (secondary villain).

And power levels are meaningless anyway, they are always meaningless when it comes to story. There are many ways to use a certain character as sacrificial lamb without involving power levels.

Point being that your fear of Zamasu taking up all the spotlight if he came back is irrational, because in the worst cases a villain can be brought back just to serve as fodder to build up someone else's hype.
8 ) Because I'm excercising my right to explain why I don't think he should return?? making a case that we have many living characters who have not yet been explored, with interesting backgrounds, and should be first in line??
The OP did say "what do you guys think?", he didn't say only Zamasu-related posts, please.
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If these characters have been left in the dust for years, then maybe they aren't that interesting to begin with.

1) And I stated he was only listed because he was revived once again, looks like he is going to take part on the current arc, and I hope we finally get rid of him. I was literally trying to prevent this: somebody thinking I actually want another story involving Freeza, but he should only get one so he can leave. This is something I clarified in my very first post.

2) who said anything about poor writing? you keep speaking for myself and it's starting to seem like it's in pretty bad faith, and not just you misunderstanding my points.
You implied that if I liked the re-imagining of a movie villain into the main continuity, idea I disliked, I shouldn't despise the idea of rehashing dead villains. I hate both ideas. The hypothetical writing has nothing to do, the concept of rehashing is what I dislike, even if it ends up being a pretty decent product, use that quality writing on some other concept so we don't have 5 stories with the same 3 villains.

3) None of that matters, did Freeza die on Namek? no, he got yet another break. What does this have to do with being sick of rehashing old villains, beats me...

4) They don't have to rehash former conflicts, they don't have to rehash anything, specially characters, because we have plenty of living characters with new places to go. Literally a multiverse of greener pastures.

5) The threat Hearts posed was already established when Jiren was subdued effortlessly. Remove that scene with Zamasu, and Hearts is still as dangerous as ever. He can erase/teleport Zamasu but not use that against Gogeta, hmm.

6) My fear of Zamasu taking the spotlight?? lol what?? being there just to hype it's exactly what I don't want, a fan-service-y revival just for the sake of it, just to hype someone else. For that, better use one of the current, much stronger, and alive characters available.

7) See, because they are ALIVE, they don't necessarily need to remain in the dust when they come back, because Broly can train, Jiren can train, Hit can improve, Kale can improve...

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by theherodjl » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:38 am

Zamasu's sole motive for coming back now would be to exact revenge on the Z Senshi since his zero mortals plan would fail with all the powerful beings currently existing. However, he's really going to need some kind of power boost or enhanced abilities since the current Z Senshi are far too much for him to handle. Even if Zamasu was still immortal, that would only delay the inevitable since there are multiple ways that he could be incapacitated and imprisoned.
It'd probably be a better idea to infiltrate the Earth and take over everyone similar to Baby since Zamasu wouldn't win by using a confrontational, power-based approach.
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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:04 am

Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 8:20 pm You implied that if I liked the re-imagining of a movie villain into the main continuity, idea I disliked, I shouldn't despise the idea of rehashing dead villains. I hate both ideas. The hypothetical writing has nothing to do, the concept of rehashing is what I dislike, even if it ends up being a pretty decent product, use that quality writing on some other concept so we don't have 5 stories with the same 3 villains.
You keep thinking that the writers have the mental faculties to work only on one character at a time... nothing's stopping them from making up 10 new villains while bringing Zamasu back too, which is what the Heroes team did.
3) None of that matters, did Freeza die on Namek? no, he got yet another break. What does this have to do with being sick of rehashing old villains, beats me...
Following your logic then Zamasu isn't dead either... Zamasu in the Cell timeline is still alive, the Immortal Zamasu in the new Future timeline is also still alive... so following that logic then it wouldn't be "rehashing of dead villains" either.
4) They don't have to rehash former conflicts, they don't have to rehash anything, specially characters, because we have plenty of living characters with new places to go. Literally a multiverse of greener pastures.
They can do that even if Zamasu came back, your argument really makes no sense and is full of holes, especially since we see from Heroes that Zamasu coming back didn't hurt the story potential of Jiren, Hit, etc. In fact it boosted it. Since Jiren got to look cool while punching Zamasu in the face, while Hit got to do something against him.
5) The threat Hearts posed was already established when Jiren was subdued effortlessly. Remove that scene with Zamasu, and Hearts is still as dangerous as ever. He can erase/teleport Zamasu but not use that against Gogeta, hmm.
The message of the writers was clear. The "Ultimate Godslayer" first act was erasing an Immortal God, there's nothing hard to understand. Zamasu was literally killed to make Hearts look cool, it doesn't matter if he already looked cool once before, it doesn't change the writers' intent.
6) My fear of Zamasu taking the spotlight?? lol what??
That's literally been your only argument since the beginning... "I don't want him to come back, there are more people deserving of attention! He'd just steal attention that other people deserve more!" -> Literally your argument since the start.
being there just to hype it's exactly what I don't want, a fan-service-y revival just for the sake of it, just to hype someone else. For that, better use one of the current, much stronger, and alive characters available.
Ah Yes, that's exactly what fans of the character want, to see him fodderized. I honestly loved it when Hearts erased him in one second, it felt so rewarding. Also why do you want the living characters to serve as sacrificial lambs? I thought you liked their potential, why do you want to see them fodderized to serve someone else's hype?

Also let's stop talking about power levels please, they mean jackshit in the discussion of the story. If Zamasu came back he'd be UI level at least, talking about power levels is meaningless when we have Frieza literally going from ant level to God level in 4 months.
7) See, because they are ALIVE, they don't necessarily need to remain in the dust when they come back, because Broly can train, Jiren can train, Hit can improve, Kale can improve...
I meant "left in the dust" from a story perspective, again I don't care about power levels. If the writers genuinely can't figure out new stories for Hit then maybe he's just not someone who interests them, and that's fine. Not all characters will receive attention and spotlight, it's pointless to try and make it so.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Hellspawn28 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 2:21 pm

Zamasu is a great villain, but I feel like that they can't do anything else new with him. We already have Cyber Merged Zamasu in Heroes.
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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:30 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:04 am That's literally been your only argument since the beginning... "I don't want him to come back, there are more people deserving of attention! He'd just steal attention that other people deserve more!" -> Literally your argument since the start.
*Sigh*... This is exactly why I'm done with this "debate", because of your blatant bad faith, you not only have been putting words in my mouth, arguing things I've already explained from the get go, wrongly playing the "you contradicted yourself here" game, twisting my words to discuss what you wanted to, but also you are now claiming I've made arguments I never did. Just to be clear, here's my actual statement proving your bolded part wrong:
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:47 am We have plenty of living, interesting characters from this and other universes waiting for a second chance, not to mention stuff that has not been explored at all yet like the Demon Realm.

Before starting again with the revival of dead enemies trope, we should bring back those guys instead of rehashing stuff, they haven't ran out of ideas yet.

People first in line before dead people:
bla bla

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:35 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:30 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Thu Mar 25, 2021 5:04 am That's literally been your only argument since the beginning... "I don't want him to come back, there are more people deserving of attention! He'd just steal attention that other people deserve more!" -> Literally your argument since the start.
*Sigh*... This is exactly why I'm done with this "debate", because of your blatant bad faith, you not only have been putting words in my mouth, arguing things I've already explained from the get go, wrongly playing the "you contradicted yourself here" game, twisting my words to discuss what you wanted to, but also you are now claiming I've made arguments I never did. Just to be clear, here's my actual statement proving your bolded part wrong:
Koitsukai wrote: Wed Mar 24, 2021 11:47 am We have plenty of living, interesting characters from this and other universes waiting for a second chance, not to mention stuff that has not been explored at all yet like the Demon Realm.

Before starting again with the revival of dead enemies trope, we should bring back those guys instead of rehashing stuff, they haven't ran out of ideas yet.

People first in line before dead people:
bla bla
You not knowing how to explain your point of view in a way that is convincing and consistent doesn't mean that I'm arguing in bad faith. You claim that you're not afraid of Zamasu stealing other people's hypothetical spotlight, then claim this at the same time:
And it would also mean this living characters would be vehicles for someone else who is the focus because you can't bring someone back just to move them aside later
You contradicting yourself is not my problem.

If you don't think that Zamasu coming back would be at the expense of other characters, then why shouldn't he come back? If it's not at the expense of other characters (like you're claiming now), what's the problem?

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by ZodiacBeast » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:54 am

I wish Zamasu was written better/more sympathetically than what we got. Masako's "What If Zamasu Did Nothing Wrong" was pretty cool. Don't think I watched all of the vids though. Also don't think it would be easy to justify the "Zero Mortals Plan".

It would have been neat to see Zeno force Zamasu to be on Team Universe 7 in the TOP to atone for his earlier actions or else be tormented in eternal hell. He'd have to cooperate with Goku and the other mortals...that would have been very interesting. :D

Slightly off-topic, I wish Moro happened before the TOP. Could you imagine Moro being forced to do the same alongside Zamasu?

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:54 pm

Honestly if there's one outcome I absolutely don't want for Zamasu is him coming back to "redeem himself" (he did nothing wrong really) and join the protagonists, that would be terrible. It just isn't a fun and entertaining development, plus this show already has like 1000 former antagonists-turned-friends.

It also wouldn't make sense with his character, because he absolutely hates Goku, even more than Frieza. He'd never join forces with him... at best he'd manipulate him like he was manipulating Hearts. Using this very strong ningen to get rid of Zeno, paving the way for the successful resolution of Project Zero Mortals.

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Re: Should Zamasu return?

Post by ZodiacBeast » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:35 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:54 pm Honestly if there's one outcome I absolutely don't want for Zamasu is him coming back to "redeem himself" (he did nothing wrong really) and join the protagonists, that would be terrible. It just isn't a fun and entertaining development, plus this show already has like 1000 former antagonists-turned-friends.

It also wouldn't make sense with his character, because he absolutely hates Goku, even more than Frieza. He'd never join forces with him... at best he'd manipulate him like he was manipulating Hearts. Using this very strong ningen to get rid of Zeno, paving the way for the successful resolution of Project Zero Mortals.
I wouldn't have Zamasu become good, he'd just have to work with Goku. *shrug*

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