Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

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Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by GodVegetto91 » Thu Mar 25, 2021 7:06 pm

To be stronger than them...!

This is what Dragon Ball Super has come to guys...

The power creep got so insanely high for our heroes, that even the writers themselves couldn’t think of a mortal enemy strong enough to beat them.

(Since they already used up insane exceptions like Jiren, Broly, and the even more capable Moro with his absorptions/transformations/copied powers that pushes his limits even further.)

So now they literally have a guy WISHING to be the strongest in the universe..

Because there is no other way for a Non GoD/Angel to surpass Goku and Vegeta the way they are now.

What is your opinion on it?
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Thu Mar 25, 2021 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Cipher » Thu Mar 25, 2021 9:51 pm

That it's ... exactly the same as it's been since the Namek arc? Every antagonist post-Freeza has had to justify in some way why they could be a threat to the heroes--either they're brand new (or their powers are), or super ancient and have been out of the scene until now, but either way there has to have been a reason why they've never factored into a strongest-in-the-universe contest before.

The sole bucking of that trend might be Hit, who gets to just be ... a strong guy we've never met ... because of the introduction of our first alternate universe. But then even by the ToP, Jiren has to be framed as not just being a strong guy from another universe, but the strongest mortal in any of them.

Which, again, is not a Super thing, and is right back in the mode of the last half of DB.

Just how it is. You can either have the series' fun escalation (and I definitely think it's one of its appeals), or threatening villains crawling out of the woodwork. I'll take the former, especially because the dearth credible threats as Goku and co. get stronger leads to fun, morally dubious character moments to Goku (mostly in the form of recklessly sparing dangerous, vengeance-seeking villains who have almost just beat him to death).

To accommodate that and allow consistency to the world, yes, we will have villains being newly created, or absorbing power, or body-swapping, or discovering mutant, latent abilities late in life, or making wishes, or being dredged up as ancient multiversal threats (which hasn't been done yet, but sure is on the table), or whatever else needs to be done to justify a new threat emerging.

This also ... isn't even the first time an antagonist has wished their way into being stronger than Goku and co.? Remember that green elfy guy?

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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Kataphrut » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:07 am

There's always gonna be a hand-wave justification for the next strong enemy. We've had naturally gifted (Freeza, Broly, arguably Vegeta and Piccolo Jr initially), artificially gifted (Cell and co), magical (Buu, Moro), divine (Beerus, Zamasu), hard workers (basically every tournament antagonist with Jiren being the most extreme), power thieves (too many to list at this point). As Cipher above me said, Granola ain't even the first to wish for it. He's not even the second if you count Moro.

At this point there's not a lot of new avenues left to explore, and is that really a problem? Considering even among all the examples I listed just now, there are still differences and delineations between them. Granola is potentially a different beast from Piccolo and Moro giving that he's kind of going in the opposite direction- they wished for old power they'd lost with age, while he's wishing for the latent power he could have at the expense of his later life.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Mar 26, 2021 5:43 am

Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:07 am
There's always gonna be a hand-wave justification for the next strong enemy. We've had naturally gifted (Freeza, Broly, arguably Vegeta and Piccolo Jr initially), artificially gifted (Cell and co), magical (Buu, Moro), divine (Beerus, Zamasu), hard workers (basically every tournament antagonist with Jiren being the most extreme), power thieves (too many to list at this point). As Cipher above me said, Granola ain't even the first to wish for it. He's not even the second if you count Moro.

At this point there's not a lot of new avenues left to explore, and is that really a problem? Considering even among all the examples I listed just now, there are still differences and delineations between them. Granola is potentially a different beast from Piccolo and Moro giving that he's kind of going in the opposite direction- they wished for old power they'd lost with age, while he's wishing for the latent power he could have at the expense of his later life.
Plus, is he even a bad guy, really? He seems like a well-intentioned extremist at worst. He probably won't be the main villain of the arc.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by PurestEvil » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:03 am

It was only a matter of time before someone like Granola came along and wished to be the strongest. I am currently neutral on this event, it can either turn out to benefit or harm the overall story.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by GodVegetto91 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:12 pm

Kataphrut wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:07 am
There's always gonna be a hand-wave justification for the next strong enemy. We've had naturally gifted (Freeza, Broly, arguably Vegeta and Piccolo Jr initially), artificially gifted (Cell and co), magical (Buu, Moro), divine (Beerus, Zamasu), hard workers (basically every tournament antagonist with Jiren being the most extreme), power thieves (too many to list at this point). As Cipher above me said, Granola ain't even the first to wish for it. He's not even the second if you count Moro.

At this point there's not a lot of new avenues left to explore, and is that really a problem? Considering even among all the examples I listed just now, there are still differences and delineations between them. Granola is potentially a different beast from Piccolo and Moro giving that he's kind of going in the opposite direction- they wished for old power they'd lost with age, while he's wishing for the latent power he could have at the expense of his later life.
He IS the first character to wish for “ultimate power”. I don’t remember ANYONE else wishing for the same thing Granolah did.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:08 pm

We still have parts of Universe 7 that we never seen before. Even the other universes have more room for new and powerful bad guys. Having someone wish for power is a cool idea because it's better than having "Character A is already super strong from start". Super has done things with characters without always using ABC logic.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Thani » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:16 pm

It is typical Toriyama to always go for the "strongest in X" thing, despite having no reason to do it. Like Hellspawn said, the universe is huge, but at the end, Toriyama limited it's scope by already giving us plenty "strongests in the universe".

I'm sorry. This is no merit of Goku and Vegeta. This is classic Toriyama writing himself on a corner and having to come up with shit.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:16 am

GodVegetto91 wrote:
Fri Mar 26, 2021 1:12 pm
He IS the first character to wish for “ultimate power”. I don’t remember ANYONE else wishing for the same thing Granolah did.
That’s because Granola knew he was far outclassed by several beings in the universe. Piccolo, Zamas and Moro were ignorant about anyone else that could threat their position, if they were at their prime. Zamas in particular went the most clever approach, immortality, since he knew the gods could intervene on his plans. He just was ignorant about their sealing abilities as well.

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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Trouser » Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:43 pm

And that is exactly why Goku and Vegeta needs to retire and Super needs to end. Spinoffs about other characters (u7, u6, u11, whatever) would be better if they desperately want to milk the franchise.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by DragonBallFoodie » Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:09 pm

Nappa and Vegeta originally were going to wish to be Super Saiyans, so that wish isn't too far out.

And then Zamasu wished for Goku's body.


So villains claiming Dragon Balls for their wishes is now a thing, while pursuing the balls for the wishes was always present in the DB saga.
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Re: Goku and Vegeta have now gotten so strong.. That an enemy actually has to WISH

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:39 pm

DragonBallFoodie wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:09 pm
Nappa and Vegeta originally were going to wish to be Super Saiyans, so that wish isn't too far out.

And then Zamasu wished for Goku's body.


So villains claiming Dragon Balls for their wishes is now a thing, while pursuing the balls for the wishes was always present in the DB saga.

Nappa and Vegeta were going to wish for immortality nothing about Super Saiyans

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