I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by Aim » Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:21 pm

Image

Wasn’t this hinting towards him not being able to become the strongest as he is now? I thought most beings had caps on them when it comes to gaining power, like Kuririn wouldn’t be able to match Jiren no matter how much training he received?

The next panel shows this:
Image
Now I thought this was going to be a nuanced kind of wish where he may wish to be the species that will enable him to defeat Freeza, say if he wished for the the dragon may have turned him into a Beerus typed species or perhaps another species we haven’t yet. I thought at first maybe his DNA was turned into Saiyan DNA or something.

However,
Image
I thought it wasn’t possible as he is? So does this mean a human like Roshi could easily have wished for the same thing? I’m guessing what the dragon means is give him the power as if he was training with the utmost effectiveness in their lifetime so perhaps that could theoretically include if he trained with the Grand Priest or one of the angels? Therefore those 197 years was taken away as if he’d lived through them already and trained with angels or whatever etc. 🧬

User avatar
Dragon Wukong
Regular
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:06 am

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by Dragon Wukong » Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:56 pm

Don't overthink it.

Simply put, the dragon can do it by shortening his lifespan, "condensing" his potential power throughout his life into the remaining three years.

User avatar
Thani
OMG CRAZY REGEN
Posts: 877
Joined: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:52 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by Thani » Fri Mar 26, 2021 9:16 pm

Dragon Wukong wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:56 pm Don't overthink it.
This. Just enjoy it for what it is.

JewyB
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 299
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 4:25 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by JewyB » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:52 am

I take it as "Imagine if you trained every day for those 150 years. Thats 54750 days. 1314873 hours. Imagine you do all that right now, immediately, to the degree of the strongest person in the universe. That will cost you 150 years thank you."

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by Aim » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:06 am

JewyB wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:52 am I take it as "Imagine if you trained every day for those 150 years. Thats 54750 days. 1314873 hours. Imagine you do all that right now, immediately, to the degree of the strongest person in the universe. That will cost you 150 years thank you."
But would that work? I mean it’s implied that he has a limit to his latent potential, I thought it was kind of like how an Earthling probably can’t reach the state of what most Saiyan’s can like Goku and Vegeta, or at least most Earthlings can’t.

I don’t know, I just wish Toyotaro would do better at explaining things, for a Dragon Ball fan he’s really lacking. Like he can barely scale, like with Vegeta struggling to lift Magetta.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:25 pm

Aim wrote: Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:06 am But would that work? I mean it’s implied that he has a limit to his latent potential, I thought it was kind of like how an Earthling probably can’t reach the state of what most Saiyan’s can like Goku and Vegeta, or at least most Earthlings can’t.
The Dragon under normal conditions can only release Granolah's latent potential, which at that moment would not be enough for him to become the strongest. But if he condensed 150 years of Granolah's life and all the power he would obtain up to that point, he could multiply his current strength to make him the number 1 in the universe, which means that this gimmick allowed Granolah to gain power beyond what he could at the current moment. You can say that this power still represents Granolah's long-term potential, but the wish allowed him to obtain that power immediately at the cost of most of his lifespan. The dragon also seems to have suggested that this condition takes into account all the power that the user could have obtained during that period (which would be the absolute peak of his possible strength, which under normal conditions would probably lead to more intense training to release this power, but that is just my interpretation).

So yeah, I would say that Granolah has great potential and a remarkeble power level before the wish, but ironically this seems to serve to further hype the Saiyans, specifically Goku and Vegeta who around their 40s have already reached a level of power in this realm, and there doesn't seem to be any limit to what they could achieve in the future

We don't know if anyone with a large lifespan could achieve the same resuly as this takes into account both the person's current power (multiplying the user's current power mentioned by Toronbo) and his potential to be able to achieve that strength during his lifetime. At least that's what I understood

BWri
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1712
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 1:56 pm
Contact:

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by BWri » Sat Mar 27, 2021 3:18 pm

Aim wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:21 pm
Dragon Wukong wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 8:56 pm Don't overthink it.

Simply put, the dragon can do it by shortening his lifespan, "condensing" his potential power throughout his life into the remaining three years.
This, but to specify to the OP. It's worded correctly so there's no contradiction. Simply put, the Dragon recognizes that Granola has the potential to reach the power he desires in time, but currently, there is no mechanism within the Dragon's abilities to raise Granola's power beyond it's current range which was currently no where near the strongest beings in the universe. However, within 200 or so years, Granola can apparently reach this level. To me, Granola doesn't even appear this strong, but the story is telling us that he is and has the potential to be great, though much much slower than Frieza and the Saiyans.

So there is no contradiction. The first image you posted just has the Dragon referring Granola at this current moment whereas in the second panel it is referring to the totality of Granola's long lifespan.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:25 am

I think what the OP is referring to here, is a certain interpretation he had of the event (that I had aswell.) ....And that is, aren’t they the same thing?!

That is, isn’t what the Dragon did to Granolah with the actual wish, the same thing as awakening his utmost potential? The description of the last panel the OP posted seems like a true potential unlock, as it’s, you know, “his own power”.. That HE, (himself), was able to accumulate within his entire lifetime. And nothing beyond that! (hence “Latent Potential”).

Isn’t that right, OP???!

User avatar
Jack Bz
Regular
Posts: 539
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:44 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by Jack Bz » Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:44 am

My take on it is: every person has an amount of latent ki inside them that they might not be able to access all of, but it's there. A potential unlock gives you full access to this ki, but this pool of ki can still be increased with training.

The dragon's wish consolidated over 100 years of Granolah training, shorting his life but making this pool of ki as big as needed for him to be the strongest.

User avatar
dario03
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1357
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:36 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by dario03 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:57 am

The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:41 am

Jack Bz wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 6:44 am My take on it is: every person has an amount of latent ki inside them that they might not be able to access all of, but it's there. A potential unlock gives you full access to this ki, but this pool of ki can still be increased with training.

The dragon's wish consolidated over 100 years of Granolah training, shorting his life but making this pool of ki as big as needed for him to be the strongest.
Hmmmmmm. Interesting. That’s one way of looking at it indeed.. But there’s also another, opposite, perspective.. You could argue, that when one increases his ki even further (beyond the potential unlock) through training.. Couldn’t that be seen as him actualizing even more and more of his most deeply hidden latent potential/power that was always already there?

You could easily translate it to that.

It would be a much easier situation if the character couldn’t get stronger AT ALL.. Like, (His full potential was finally unlocked!)

If you can still get stronger after that, then one could use the argument/perspective that there’s still more of his own inner pool of ki being actualized.


This way, it is much simpler at least. Because how does “latent potential” magically “increase”. I have a hard time picturing that. But seeing an absolute limit to a specific character, and once that is “brought out for use”, it is potential, fully actualized. And the character cannot possibly get stronger after that, no matter what. For if he/she did get even stronger, his/her full potential was never actualized in the first place! Is a much easier to grasp, concept.

Anyways, that’s my take on it xD

User avatar
Aim
Banned
Posts: 761
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:06 am
Contact:

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by Aim » Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:09 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:25 am I think what the OP is referring to here, is a certain interpretation he had of the event (that I had aswell.) ....And that is, aren’t they the same thing?!

That is, isn’t what the Dragon did to Granolah with the actual wish, the same thing as awakening his utmost potential? The description of the last panel the OP posted seems like a true potential unlock, as it’s, you know, “his own power”.. That HE, (himself), was able to accumulate within his entire lifetime. And nothing beyond that! (hence “Latent Potential”).

Isn’t that right, OP???!
Yeah, basically, drawing out everything he had, and I was under the assumption that he didn’t have enough latent potential to just be the strongest in the universe like that, he would need to train on top of it. Kind of like how Kuririn’s full Unlock Potential wouldn’t be as much as Gohan’s. Toyotaro does a horrendous job at explanations for someone who is seen as “a massive Dragon Ball fan”, he puts like no effort into power scaling either.

User avatar
Hugo Boss
I Live Here
Posts: 4653
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:04 pm
Location: Brazil

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:33 am

For me, it seems the Dragon Balls can do something similar to what the Elder Kaioshin did to Gohan, releasing his dormant power to its fullest. But with time, Gohan far surpassed that level and he still has years to improve. Granola just skipped all these steps.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:02 pm

Aim wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 8:09 am
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:25 am I think what the OP is referring to here, is a certain interpretation he had of the event (that I had aswell.) ....And that is, aren’t they the same thing?!

That is, isn’t what the Dragon did to Granolah with the actual wish, the same thing as awakening his utmost potential? The description of the last panel the OP posted seems like a true potential unlock, as it’s, you know, “his own power”.. That HE, (himself), was able to accumulate within his entire lifetime. And nothing beyond that! (hence “Latent Potential”).

Isn’t that right, OP???!
Yeah, basically, drawing out everything he had, and I was under the assumption that he didn’t have enough latent potential to just be the strongest in the universe like that, he would need to train on top of it. Kind of like how Kuririn’s full Unlock Potential wouldn’t be as much as Gohan’s. Toyotaro does a horrendous job at explanations for someone who is seen as “a massive Dragon Ball fan”, he puts like no effort into power scaling either.
You’re right about that. Toyotaro sure is more explanatory than either Toei or Toriyama.. (which is good!) But it’s not enough! He doesn’t explain enough. And we all deserve to be a little more entitled as fans and demand more like we deserve.

User avatar
TheSaiyanGod
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1906
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:09 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:53 pm

GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:25 am I think what the OP is referring to here, is a certain interpretation he had of the event (that I had aswell.) ....And that is, aren’t they the same thing?!

That is, isn’t what the Dragon did to Granolah with the actual wish, the same thing as awakening his utmost potential? The description of the last panel the OP posted seems like a true potential unlock, as it’s, you know, “his own power”.. That HE, (himself), was able to accumulate within his entire lifetime. And nothing beyond that! (hence “Latent Potential”).

Isn’t that right, OP???!
Gohan's latent potential in the Freeza Saga was not as big as his latent potential in Cell saga, which in turn was less than in the Boo saga. The limits of the potential that a person can reach can be increased through training and apparently the age factor is also related to this.

The hidden power of Gohan released in Namek was nowhere near the power he demonstrated in later arcs. Granolah's wish seems to take 150 years of training into account for him to reach his peak. His potential at the time he summoned the dragon was not enough for him to become the strongest, but after 150 years of his life condensed that seems to be the cas

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:24 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 2:53 pm
GodVegetto91 wrote: Sun Mar 28, 2021 5:25 am I think what the OP is referring to here, is a certain interpretation he had of the event (that I had aswell.) ....And that is, aren’t they the same thing?!

That is, isn’t what the Dragon did to Granolah with the actual wish, the same thing as awakening his utmost potential? The description of the last panel the OP posted seems like a true potential unlock, as it’s, you know, “his own power”.. That HE, (himself), was able to accumulate within his entire lifetime. And nothing beyond that! (hence “Latent Potential”).

Isn’t that right, OP???!
Gohan's latent potential in the Freeza Saga was not as big as his latent potential in Cell saga, which in turn was less than in the Boo saga. The limits of the potential that a person can reach can be increased through training and apparently the age factor is also related to this.

The hidden power of Gohan released in Namek was nowhere near the power he demonstrated in later arcs. Granolah's wish seems to take 150 years of training into account for him to reach his peak. His potential at the time he summoned the dragon was not enough for him to become the strongest, but after 150 years of his life condensed that seems to be the cas
Then it simply wasn’t Gohan’s “full potential” unlocked. Reason and logic > Word of an author that doesn’t think things through, hence comes to the conclusion that 2 + 2 = 5. You can accept it like a brave obedient little consumer, or you can call it out for what it is, a logical impossibility.

Here’s the simplest possible version of the event.

• You have 1 character throughout his/her entire lifetime.

• That character neccesarily has a max potential from birth. (Backyard pool of ki, from which to take water/energy from, and draw it out for use in your front yard)

• This means that from the moment the character is born (yes even as a helpless little baby!) he/she has the same amount of total energy available in his/her system as a seasoned warrior.

• Through training and various other methods, said character can take the energy from his own stored backyard pool of ki for use in his newly created front yard pool. This corresponds to finally “actualizing” SOME of ones latent potential!

The total amount of energy in the body’s/character’s/system always remains the same, and is decided from birth and represents the characters full potential!

Only when all of the water (energy) of the backyard pool has been relocated to the front yard pool, has a character “fully” actualized his/her potential. Hence cannot possibly get any more powerful after that point.
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:35 pm

100% Potential = 0% Actualization.

100% Actualization = 0% Potential.

99% Potential = 1% Actualization.

This is how it works in all realities. It is simply ontological mathematics in full effect here. Everything is ultimately balanced. Life is a series of trade offs.

If 1 quality goes up, another quality goes down.

BALANCE ALWAYS MAINTAINED.

All this means is that the Namekian Elder Guru was unable to bring out Gohan’s “Full” Potential.. So whatever power boost Kid Gohan got during that Elder Guru powerup, was ALL he could presently ACCESS at that point in time!

And the exact same thing applies to any other “potential unlock” Gohan got during Z. This includes his SSJ2 transformation against Perfect Cell, and his new “mystic” powerup from the Elder Kaioshin.

It’s the maximum amount of ki that they could ACCESS at that point in time.

Obviously for plot reasons.. The writing is 100% on the wall here and it is as clear as day to me. Never has it been more clear. It literally reveals itself to me.
Last edited by GodVegetto91 on Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dario03
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1357
Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2008 2:36 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by dario03 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:52 pm

I figure its like a lightbulb on a battery. If you have an adjustable lightbulb at 100w hooked up to a 500w/h battery then it should last about 5 hours, if you ramp it up to 500w then it will last about an hour. With normal training or potential unlocks the lightbulb and the battery both increase, going further only increases the draw of the lightbulb.

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 4:06 pm

How do I know this is true? Simple. It’s the first law of thermodynamics. Energy can never be created or destroyed, only.. transformed. No new energy can ever be created. Therefore, my backyard and frontyard pool “system” where the total energy is always conserved and balanced, is the only possible reality. The total energy in the system is always the same. Wether the backyard is full, while the frontyard is empty (or vice versa.) 64% Potential / 36% Actualization still adds up to 100% and the energy is still divided evenly over the whole system/“body”/character.

It’s just that different characters have different sizes of backyard pools (different amounts of potential.)

Each time Gohan got his “potential unlocked” he was simply able to access the maximum amount of power available for use at that time, to be converted to the frontyard pool!

(Again, for plot purposes!)

User avatar
GodVegetto91
Banned
Posts: 2906
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2015 12:49 pm

Re: I thought Granola was not able to become the strongest because of his limited latent potential?

Post by GodVegetto91 » Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:03 am

I am now going to introduce the most revolutionary idea ever (regarding Dragon Ball at least),

This will lead to a TRUE understanding of what’s going on INSIDE the story..

And that is Out of universe / writers intent / plot >>>>>>>> In universe “rules”, content.

These are the 2 perspectives that one MUST understand to learn more about Dragon Ball.

Some things can ONLY be explained from an out of universe perspective..

That is, the writers “WANTS” this to happen argument.. (And it works every time!)

You can actually clearly SEE it manifest IN-UNIVERSE wise aswell sometimes at certain specific times when it becomes really prevelant and reveals itself!

This is key here^^^.

In this case, we are talking about a character’s “POTENTIAL”.

And what is this truly means!

Here’s the secret, are you ready to hear this ground breaking revelation???

It is this...

A character’s potential is a 100% OUT OF UNIVERSE CONCEPT!

I.e. It is the author’s/writer’s INTENT and ability to change ANYTHING he sees fit ON A WHIM!

Meaning, that from the ultimate perspective, ALL CHARACTERS HAVE THE SAME POTENTIAL!

Now from an “IN-UNIVERSE” standpoint, this makes zero sense!

Because how could Mister Satan have EQUAL potential to Broly, or the Grand Priest???!

But, it DOES make perfect sense from the OUT OF UNIVERSE perspective (the writer’s desires!)

IF the writer wants to make Mr. Satan as strong as the Grand Priest... He can! (That’s his ultimate power to do so. Toriyama is GOD of the story afterall.)

The reason WHY I’m saying all this, is to explain the following event that constantly seems to happen in the story..

This explains why character can ALWAYS still get stronger IN THE STORY even AFTER “unlocking their potential.”....

Look at Gohan, 3 times in Z.. This is also why 17 and Future Trunks could suddenly (magically) MATCH Blue Tier fighters without any real previous training for it!

It’s PLOT!

“Potential unlocked AND SURPASSED = the writers saying this is what I want to happen wether you like it or not.”

One last time to clarify:

What a character’s “potential” TRULY IS is Author’s intent.

Plot! (Out of universe CONTROLS in universe.)

And you can actually SEE this manifest IN-UNIVERSE!

That’s the beauty if you look truly close enough!

Post Reply