What you found savable of the DBS anime

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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FoolsGil
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by FoolsGil » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:16 pm

- I could say that most of the filler in DBS was superb. We was able to see a life the Dragon Team that was really only touched upon in Movies 1 - 13, minutes before the fighting starts.

- While absolutely nothing has been done with it, I'm a sucker for multiverses.

- The Zamasu arc was pretty good up to that last episode. I like that Zamasu had different motivations compared to other villains.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Thani » Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:47 pm

FoolsGil wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:16 pm
- I could say that most of the filler in DBS was superb. We was able to see a life the Dragon Team that was really only touched upon in Movies 1 - 13, minutes before the fighting starts.

- While absolutely nothing has been done with it, I'm a sucker for multiverses.

- The Zamasu arc was pretty good up to that last episode. I like that Zamasu had different motivations compared to other villains.
Absolutely agreed. Got to say though, I didn't mind the final episode of the Zamasu arc, at least the bulk of it. He cemented himself at that moment as an eldritch abomination almost on par with Azatoth there, and only the stand-in for Azzy himself could actually deal with him (Zen'Oh is pretty much a "blind idiot god" on a superficial level, if you think about it). I get it that people felt it anticlimatic, but I enjoyed that sometimes you just can't win some battles.

Then the last minutes came and more or less wiped away all of that. Trunks getting to a new timeline that it's identical to his own, but happier, felt a little... Undeserved. A forced "happy ending" of sorts.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Lionel » Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:50 pm

I enjoyed seeing something unique with Hit's Kyushojitsu in the anime. It provided an extra layer of distinct characterisation for his style besides the Time Skip.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Cipher » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:29 pm

Super TV is probably the sole piece of DB media I would say I largely dislike, or at least on the whole find more frustrating than fun, though obviously it has its fans and hit it off with its target audience.

Plenty of isolated little bits to enjoy though. Goku vs. Caulifla/Kale/Kefla is probably the best fight in both versions of Super combined, I prefer its ending of the Future Trunks arc via Episode 67 (though I don't think the manga version is bad; just a slightly different tone), Episode 43 pausing for a bit to reflect on the passage of time is something we don't get enough of, and the Freeza revival episodes are as excellent as most fans claim they are.

Among other fun filler, the Goku vs. Hit rematch is ... not necessary, but also enjoyable.

There's probably more. Plenty of good stuff scattered throughout. My misgiving just tends to be that it's best in isolation and often becomes worse sitting through surrounding material/in context (messes of pacing, world-building/in-universe details, and characterization all acting as constant distractions), which is a shame. Normally you'd want scenes to be fun in isolation but even better in context.

EDIT -- Black's "Even I don't know what this is" scythe shenanigans are also good. I think the manga's bully-Black works perfectly well for its story, but I can't deny the mustache-twirling persona of anime Black gave that character more presence.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Kataphrut » Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:58 am

I preferred the anime on the whole, but if we're going with specific examples in contrast to the manga version, then let's see:

* Blue Kaioken. The scene hasn't aged terribly well, and I think a big part of the initial hype for it's first appearance was any port in a storm. The show had gotten off to a terrible start and needed a crowd-pleaser to boost hype. But in retrospect, i still prefer it as an intermediate/alternate upgrade to Blue before Ultra Instinct. It worked better than the manga's Mastered Blue take, which was an ok idea until you thought about how much it contradicts what little we knew about Blue when it debuted in Resurrection F. The Kaioken combo was a more distinctive upgrade with tangible upsides and downsides.

* Hit and Goku Black - I'm lumping these two together because their anime versions have a lot in common with regard to what worked better. They were both imposing and genuinely threatening to Goku and Vegeta, with distinctive fighting styles to back it up. Hit sticking to his focus on honing his techniques instead of power was also very refreshing.

* Vegetto vs Zamasu - We know Vegetto was only thrown in for fanservice, but if you're gonna do it, make it worthwhile. A well-animated fight that made Vegetto feel necessary to the story was the way to go. It was nice to see a Goku/Vegeta fusion not being an instant win button for once.

* Goku's relationship with Caulifla and Kale - No one talks about how this master-student dynamic was a million times better than Vegeta and Cabba. It wasn't just "shine your boots sir?" there was back-talk, overconfidence, one-upmanship and it ended in a fantastic over-the-top climax with the master showing the students just how far they still had to go. Great stuff. Shame we'll probably never see it again.

* Krillin and Gohan's mini-arcs - Internal conflict is good, dramatising it is even better. Especially when it's with characters that haven't had focus or development in literal decades. Another thing it's a shame we'll never see touched on again.

*The ToP climax - this one's a no-brainer.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by FoolsGil » Tue Apr 06, 2021 9:37 am

Thani wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:47 pm
FoolsGil wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:16 pm
- I could say that most of the filler in DBS was superb. We was able to see a life the Dragon Team that was really only touched upon in Movies 1 - 13, minutes before the fighting starts.

- While absolutely nothing has been done with it, I'm a sucker for multiverses.

- The Zamasu arc was pretty good up to that last episode. I like that Zamasu had different motivations compared to other villains.
Absolutely agreed. Got to say though, I didn't mind the final episode of the Zamasu arc, at least the bulk of it. He cemented himself at that moment as an eldritch abomination almost on par with Azatoth there, and only the stand-in for Azzy himself could actually deal with him (Zen'Oh is pretty much a "blind idiot god" on a superficial level, if you think about it). I get it that people felt it anticlimatic, but I enjoyed that sometimes you just can't win some battles.

Then the last minutes came and more or less wiped away all of that. Trunks getting to a new timeline that it's identical to his own, but happier, felt a little... Undeserved. A forced "happy ending" of sorts.
Oh I agree, I should have said the last few minutes of the last episode. What Zamasu became and his finish by the Spirit Sword was great to see. After that though, ugh.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Kinokima » Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:33 pm

There was a lot of things I liked sprinkled throughout but the baseball episode and when Bra was born were two of my favorite Dragon Ball related episodes of the entire franchise.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:50 pm

As much as the anime version of the Tournament of Power dragged on, the reveal at the end that it was all a secret test of character was a genuinely great twist. It made it seem like the arc had an actual purpose behind it, beyond simply not dying, and it made Zen-Oh slightly more likable as a character. It’s a shame the manga didn’t include that idea.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:53 am

WittyUsername wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:50 pm
As much as the anime version of the Tournament of Power dragged on, the reveal at the end that it was all a secret test of character was a genuinely great twist. It made it seem like the arc had an actual purpose behind it, beyond simply not dying, and it made Zen-Oh slightly more likable as a character. It’s a shame the manga didn’t include that idea.
Oh I forgot about that one, yes. I enjoyed that a lot and it does make the deities look a little more invested in their own creation, and gives some meaning behind the ToP, there was a catch after all, a hidden test and U7 passed it and also saved everybody by doing so. U7 losing and having Jiren wish for Gicchin would've meant the end of the multiverse. Or even winning and wishing for Freeza to be revived, would've been a death sentence.

The manga went with the deities being more like mindless, uncaring beings I guess which isn't bad either, and the tournament being just that, but I prefer the anime expanding on them by giving them a mysterious and intelligent vibe, they had a horse in the race after all.
It also speaks of what they were looking for in the ningen, those wielding immense amounts of power enough to subdue the multiverse also needing to have some sort of empathy and not being self-centered.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:22 am

I didn't like the idea that the ToP was all just a test because it's trying to attribute wisdom to Zeno who is meant to be a terrifying and chaotic child of a god. The idea that he has any kind of grand scheme is just pretty silly to me. This is the same guy who erased a whole multiversal timeline because he didn't like the look of Zamasu and the state he left the earth.

I think Zeno is a better character when he is chaotic and unpredictable and yet very childlike/naive. Trying to apply sage-like wisdom to him of all people rubs me the wrong way. I really liked 17 giving a little "screw you" to the people who engineered this pretty messed up game by using their own rules against them.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:03 am

Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:22 am
I didn't like the idea that the ToP was all just a test because it's trying to attribute wisdom to Zeno who is meant to be a terrifying and chaotic child of a god. The idea that he has any kind of grand scheme is just pretty silly to me. This is the same guy who erased a whole multiversal timeline because he didn't like the look of Zamasu and the state he left the earth.

I think Zeno is a better character when he is chaotic and unpredictable and yet very childlike/naive. Trying to apply sage-like wisdom to him of all people rubs me the wrong way. I really liked 17 giving a little "screw you" to the people who engineered this pretty messed up game by using their own rules against them.
The problem is that #17 making the wish as an act of defiance against Zen-Oh doesn’t really work. What exactly is supposed to prevent Zen-Oh from just erasing the universes again?

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:55 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:03 am
Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:22 am
I didn't like the idea that the ToP was all just a test because it's trying to attribute wisdom to Zeno who is meant to be a terrifying and chaotic child of a god. The idea that he has any kind of grand scheme is just pretty silly to me. This is the same guy who erased a whole multiversal timeline because he didn't like the look of Zamasu and the state he left the earth.

I think Zeno is a better character when he is chaotic and unpredictable and yet very childlike/naive. Trying to apply sage-like wisdom to him of all people rubs me the wrong way. I really liked 17 giving a little "screw you" to the people who engineered this pretty messed up game by using their own rules against them.
The problem is that #17 making the wish as an act of defiance against Zen-Oh doesn’t really work. What exactly is supposed to prevent Zen-Oh from just erasing the universes again?
Right, it doesn't work because Zen'Oh allegedly wanted to erase the universes. They have zero vested interest in preserving the universes or respecting a wish to restore them, so there's no reason for them to not just do it again after the Super Shenron granted the wish - or even more, they could very well prohibited 17 to make such a wish. If they were truly childlike. Considering actual childs throw tantrums when they don't get what they want. The fact that didn't happen and the Grand Priest appeared to be satisfied with 17's wish could also indicate that was what they wanted all along.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:04 pm

Thani wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:55 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:03 am
Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:22 am
I didn't like the idea that the ToP was all just a test because it's trying to attribute wisdom to Zeno who is meant to be a terrifying and chaotic child of a god. The idea that he has any kind of grand scheme is just pretty silly to me. This is the same guy who erased a whole multiversal timeline because he didn't like the look of Zamasu and the state he left the earth.

I think Zeno is a better character when he is chaotic and unpredictable and yet very childlike/naive. Trying to apply sage-like wisdom to him of all people rubs me the wrong way. I really liked 17 giving a little "screw you" to the people who engineered this pretty messed up game by using their own rules against them.
The problem is that #17 making the wish as an act of defiance against Zen-Oh doesn’t really work. What exactly is supposed to prevent Zen-Oh from just erasing the universes again?
Right, it doesn't work because Zen'Oh allegedly wanted to erase the universes. They have zero vested interest in preserving the universes or respecting a wish to restore them, so there's no reason for them to not just do it again after the Super Shenron granted the wish - or even more, they could very well prohibited 17 to make such a wish. If they were truly childlike. Considering actual childs throw tantrums when they don't get what they want. The fact that didn't happen and the Grand Priest appeared to be satisfied with 17's wish could also indicate that was what they wanted all along.
If that’s what the manga was going for, I just wish it would’ve made it more clear like the anime did.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:05 pm

WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 3:04 pm
Thani wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 2:55 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:03 am


The problem is that #17 making the wish as an act of defiance against Zen-Oh doesn’t really work. What exactly is supposed to prevent Zen-Oh from just erasing the universes again?
Right, it doesn't work because Zen'Oh allegedly wanted to erase the universes. They have zero vested interest in preserving the universes or respecting a wish to restore them, so there's no reason for them to not just do it again after the Super Shenron granted the wish - or even more, they could very well prohibited 17 to make such a wish. If they were truly childlike. Considering actual childs throw tantrums when they don't get what they want. The fact that didn't happen and the Grand Priest appeared to be satisfied with 17's wish could also indicate that was what they wanted all along.
If that’s what the manga was going for, I just wish it would’ve made it more clear like the anime did.
I doubt it is, but considering contextual clue, it can be a valid interpretation.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:37 pm

In the manga, we see the Zenos both decide to erase 8 universes because there's too many pieces in the chess-like game they're playing and that it's a pain to keep watch of so many. They were going to erase them then and there before Goku shows up. It's so incongruous with how they're characterised in that scene that they desired the wish from the tournament to be a test of selflessness. And even in the anime they're literally playing a game destroying planets for fun before Goku shows up.

The anime mentioning that Zeno that predicted this outcome, hoped for a virtuous fighter to consider the other universes in his wishes, and acting like he's a wise moral bastion... it just makes me wonder how it can be talking about the character who last arc erased his own timeline on a whim. Who just episodes ago was destroying planets for fun.

I feel like Toei wanted a reason why the Zenos wouldn't just erase the universes after 17's wish, and came up with something that doesn't match Zeno's character at all. The manga has Daishinkan be pleased with 17's wish, and mention that their wish raised the mortal level. There's a sense that he is the one pulling the strings with subtle moves and predictions, which is more satisfying, as he is a supposedly neutral angel. I feel like this pulling strings to get outcomes you want to avoid violating neutrality laws is something Whis does too.

The manga focussing on the Grand Priest being satisfied with 17's wish and possibly predicting that outcome works way better than it does for if they had done the same with Zeno.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Mister_Popo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 5:10 pm

Well to keep it short: it does not have the same consistent quality as the original series, but it has way too many iconic moments that hold their own merits to ignore the series as a DB-fan. Most of those are already mentionned by other people.

It may not have become what some fans wanted to it be, but it ended up being not half as bad as it could have been if it hadn't picked up its game in the second half.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by SupremeKai25 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:14 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:37 pm
In the manga, we see the Zenos both decide to erase 8 universes because there's too many pieces in the chess-like game they're playing and that it's a pain to keep watch of so many. They were going to erase them then and there before Goku shows up. It's so incongruous with how they're characterised in that scene that they desired the wish from the tournament to be a test of selflessness. And even in the anime they're literally playing a game destroying planets for fun before Goku shows up.

The anime mentioning that Zeno that predicted this outcome, hoped for a virtuous fighter to consider the other universes in his wishes, and acting like he's a wise moral bastion... it just makes me wonder how it can be talking about the character who last arc erased his own timeline on a whim. Who just episodes ago was destroying planets for fun.

I feel like Toei wanted a reason why the Zenos wouldn't just erase the universes after 17's wish, and came up with something that doesn't match Zeno's character at all. The manga has Daishinkan be pleased with 17's wish, and mention that their wish raised the mortal level. There's a sense that he is the one pulling the strings with subtle moves and predictions, which is more satisfying, as he is a supposedly neutral angel. I feel like this pulling strings to get outcomes you want to avoid violating neutrality laws is something Whis does too.

The manga focussing on the Grand Priest being satisfied with 17's wish and possibly predicting that outcome works way better than it does for if they had done the same with Zeno.
I'd say the twist at the end of the ToP arc was written with the previous arc in mind. The Future Trunks arc introduced Zamasu, a troubled Kai who thought ningens were useless, arrogant, and selfish, so the ending of the ToP arc in a way proved him "wrong", because a ningen made a selfless wish, thus saving all of existence from destruction.

Hence why you also had the Grand Priest telling Whis that ningens can change for the better, yada yada yada, and Gowasu smiling and staring up at the sky almost saying "See Zamasu? Ningens are not all useless".

The funny thing is that Zeno's logic is faulty, because he thinks all ningens are selfless just because 17 (one ningen) made a selfless wish, regardless this was the writers' intention.
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Krillin1994 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:00 pm

Despite how people look back on Super there is a lot of content in it which I enjoyed. Not as much as the original run for sure. Gonna try and go through in chronological order of the anime with things I liked and then my less favourable moments

Things I liked

- SSG vs Beerus, though the film version is a real visual treat, was cool to actually get more of a showing of SSG in battle
- Seeing Goku and Vegeta convince Whis to train them
- Showing the consequence of Frieza blowing up Earth in RoF
- New Universes and GoDs/Attendants
- Ultra Instinct being somewhat there in Whis' teachings from his initial explanations in the RoF arc
- U6 Saiyans (initially disliked the female duo as they overshone Cabba, but have grown to like them. Would enjoy more exploration of them still)
- U6 Tournament delivering with Goku Vs Hit - Really felt this was a key moment that the series needed. Think everyone squeeled when the op song played during the Kaioken reveal.
- Goku Black and his theatrical flair compared to Manga.
- Major Step up in animation during FT arc. initial Goku and Trunks vs Black and Zamasu was great, as was Vegito
- Arale and Baseball filler eps. Great fun.
- Krillin and Goku training filler eps - think actually was so surprised watching it with the exchange of Roshi speaking to Krillin at night about his doubts. Felt like a while since we had serious wise helpful roshi. Bonus when 18 arrives and is watching with Roshi, he's not being pervy.
- Zeno Exhibition. Cool action with Buu and Gohan. nuff said.
- Recruitment arc. Krillin vs Gohan ep then vs Goku on satan building rooftop (we need it as a stage). 17 recruitment. Goku and Gohan vs tien/piccolo ep.
- Frieza characterisation in ToP. Felt like his former self of the veneer of calm composed emperor.
- Roshi focus in ToP. wouldn't have expected two dedicated episodes and for him to have one of the most emotional parts of super.
- Particular action in the Top I enjoyed. Goku Hit team up, UI fights, Kefla finisher. Anilaza fight. Team effort vs Jiren in the last 10 eps.
- 17 being the surprise victor of the ToP to shake things up. The final sequence of the Jiren fight. The side by side of Goku and Frieza as Jiren is ringed out is an iconic moment of DB now.

Best thing of course by a huge huge mile is the Goku grabbing Galactic King's dick joke. Especially the fact that the manga has kept it going as a Recurring joke.

Things I disliked

- Lack of interesting training for the most part. One of my fave things in DB was seeing all the different methods of training the cast would do to get stronger. seemingly mundane field work and chores with Roshi, Karin's water. Catching bubbles, Gohan Z sword, gravity chamber, time chamber. It always felt like the training was varied and always used to get decent focus in the past. We actually felt like the gains were earned because we spent time watching it. In Super it just seemed once they arrived with Whis it was always just them doing the same thing on his planet (seem to recall a lot of reused animation), or having Vegeta in a huff fly to the time chamber and then just show him leaving it. (I know Moro arc in Manga does a better job at capturing this and Granola arc is currently doing this too)

- Too much food. I know Goku has always loved to eat. but the amount of time spent having Beerus and Whis gushing over food in this show is annoying ad to the detriment of their characters that it is their most memorable traits. I wonnder if we had a supercut of how much of Super is eating or orgasm faces to food.

- Animation in ROF arc was almost unforgivable. Ep 5 gets roasted but base Goku vs Final form Frieza is far worse.

- Generic fight choreography for a lot of the fights. TOP fights especially feel like this outside of a few specific fights. Guess it suffers from a lack of Toriyama actually panelling the fights. So many are just generic flurry of punches repeated over.

- Too much vagueness in power (look at the arguments this cause non stop on this forum). Do they have God power in base a la ROF? how does 17 get so strong, how does Gohan get blue level in a day? is Piccolo God tier since he trained Gohan to that level. Why isn't 18 as strong when her and krillin would still spar together while 17 just looked after an island?

Lack of exploration of other universes, like they open this big reveal that there are 12 universes but all we see are a void for the U6 arc (when it was initially hyped to have a story exploring U6) Reveal that 6 of the 7 Super dragonballs were already collected took the wind out of the potential to have a dynamic story. Then we see a few glimpses of the Kai realm of Universe 10, finally seeing U6 when Hit is at work, then some glimpses of the TOP universes when recruiting warriors. But the fact that Goku is the only main character that leaves U7 is a bit lacklustre.

- Roshi antics in 89 were a bit worse than usual. This is from someone who finds the majority of his Dragonball/Z antics amusing (but was perhaps because he'd generally get a comeuppancne or tonally was more humour heavy i.e initial bulma flashing scene). Tien beinng butt monkey of his own recruitment ep and getting worst showing in his TOP focused ep gettinng a Tie.

- Execution of TOP, erased universes didn't feel weighty. 48 minutes felt too short for the TOP, when in 21st WMAT Goku vs Jackie Chun lasted hours. All the pre talk about energy conservation, yet Goku and Vegeta being able to tranform into blue non stop each time they are badly beaten/drained as if nothing happened - worst in the final Jiren fight. At least after initial Jiren fight Goku had to warm back up to his full power vs Kale. Then after that it was like one ep before he was blue again. Then Jiren fight it was non stop.

- Initial Gohan treatment. The non stop conferences and flip flopping of him training/ keeping in form.

- Goku no kiss joke was a bit odd still. even if he's not romantic and doesn't kiss Chi Chi he knows about kissing as per his Old Kai bribing with Bulma.

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