What you found savable of the DBS anime

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What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by pepd » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:17 pm

I've been wanting to make this threat a while ago, but wanted to start it adding something and not just asking the question, and didn't find the time or patience to sit through the anime. At the end I think I'll never rewatch it, but I think is an interesting discussion, so here it goes.
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For those who didn't like the anime in general or most of it:
What you did like or found savable of it? Whether you liked as-is, or just appreciate the initial idea or intention, what you did like of the DBS anime?


Here's an example:

-The idea (not the execution) of Zamasu predicating his ideology. While I think it was natural and necessary for Zamasu to go unhinged, it would have been nice if we saw his ideas shown and transform a little longer.
-The tractor joke.


________________________________________________
We all know a lot of people liked the anime as a whole, please lets avoid "everything"s, and keep the discussion about what people who didn't, liked about it.
While some comparisons can serve to analyze or explain a point, please lets also not derail the conversation into another manga vs anime discussion.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Grimlock » Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:56 pm

• More love/screentime to Super Saiyan 2.

• Bringing back Kaio-ken (though I don't know if I really like the way it was executed).

• A deity above everyone else (though I don't like Zeno himself, it should've been Daishinkan).

• Super Dragon Balls (too bad they scatter conveniently between just Universe 6 and Universe 7).

• Goku Black's introduction/first appearance.

• Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's and Super Saiyan Rosé's concept (just the concept, their execution couldn't have been worse).

• Ultra Instinct -Sign- (too bad that it just amounts to endless Saiyans transformation in the end).

That's it. That's all that series managed to deliver, unfortunately.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Thani » Fri Apr 02, 2021 8:51 pm

I'll go one step further and make a list of what I'd salvage from both anime and manga and make a timeline out of them.
  • (Manga) Showing Goku's internal training - I would, however, change his form each time he faced a new enemy. So, SSj for Freeza, SSj2 for Cell and SSj3 for Kid Buu.
  • (Manga) Beerus being poisoned instead of being a prick as his motivation to punish that planet in his introduction.
  • (Manga) Goku not absorbing the SSG power. Or, rather, it's mostly a temporary case against Beerus and that's it.
  • (Anime) The battle with Beerus being more dramatic.
  • (Anime) The training with Whis.
  • (Anime) The expanded fight with Golden Freeza, showcasing his superior power before it taps out.
  • (Anime/Manga) Vegeta's fight with Cabba.
  • (Manga) SSB having a stamina problem, with it's full power being absolutely magnificent.
  • (Anime) Goku going all out against Hit instead of using SSj at first. Hit improving his timeskip to overwhelm Goku.
  • (Anime) Goku using kaioken to compensate for Blue's shortcomings.
  • (Anime) Goku and Hit being both worned out in the end, with Goku forfeiting the match.
  • (Anime) The Monaka joke at the end. And the Zen'Oh appearence.
  • (Anime) Black's introduction.
  • (Anime) Black following Trunks to the past and battling our heroes. In this case, could it be either Goku or Vegeta. If Vegeta, have him completely curbstomp Black.
  • (Anime) Goku going with Beerus and Whis to meet Zamasu. Their fight. Would just change to have Goku using SSG instead of 2, making a better point of Zamasu's newfound terror and hate of mortals (they're using divine power, after all). Blends better with Future Zamasu being able to hold his own against Goku and Vegeta later on.
  • (Anime) Vegeta initial beating of Black.
  • (Manga) Rosé being explicitly defined as Black's version of Super Saiyan Blue. He's stronger because he's just that, stronger.
  • (Anime) Black fight and defeat of Goku and Vegeta. Black calling Vegeta an appetizer.
  • (Anime) Zamasu appearing from a beam of light and demanding to fight Goku. Their initial fight.
  • (Manga) Their return to the past. Goku and Vegeta prepare for the next round, with Mafuba and the God-Blue switcharoo.
  • (Anime) Trunks unlocks his "Rage" form, but it's properly explained this time. I'd have it be pseudo-divine and make Trunks at least close to SSG in power.
  • (Anime) Goku being present at Zamasu's destruction at Beerus' hands. No new time ring being created by this.
  • (Anime) Goku and Vegeta return to the future and discovering Black's identity. Black still exists because of the Time Ring and Zamasu because he's immortal.
  • (Manga) Goku fighting Zamasu with the Mafuba and Vegeta fighting Black with the God-Blue Switch.
  • (Anime) Black is defeated but uses his rage to empower himself and get his scythe.
  • (Manga) Zamasu is beat around by Goku after the Mafuba fails.
  • (Anime) Zamasu, afraid of the Mafuba, gets Black to his side. They both fuse in order to end things.
  • (Anime) God Zamasu has a halo and gives his speech.
  • (Anime) Goku, Vegeta and Trunks fight God Zamasu together and take a beating all the same.
  • (Anime) Gowasu explains how the Potara only lasts an hour. Goku and Vegeta fuse.
  • (Manga) Vegito trashes Zamasu with relative ease.
  • (Anime) Zamasu mutates and starts fighting Vegito more evenly.
  • (Anime) The battle takes it's toll and Zamasu's immortality is compromised by Black being mortal. Trunks takes the opportunity and cleaves him in half.
  • (Anime) Zamasu's immortal soul starts affecting the universe itself. Instead now, his fused power goes out of control and keeps opening rifts on reality. He goes absolutely bananas.
  • (Both) Goku summon Zen'Oh. I'd have this be the exact same Zen'Oh, tho, no "there's two of them now" bullshit. Zen'Oh erases Zamasu and the timeline while the heroes escape.
  • (Both) Goku go ask Zen'Oh about the Tournament. Zen gets the idea to test the universes to see if they have potential.
  • (Both) The Zen Exhibit Matches starts with the GoD Battle Royale and ends with U9 and U7 fighting to give Zen'Oh a better taste of combat. Toppo steps in and defeats Goku, who showcases that he managed to solve Blue's weakness, but it's risky. Kaioken still have uses.
  • (Manga) Vegeta fights Beerus' and reveals that he also completed SSB.
  • (Anime)The recruitment phase, most of it, but especially Freeza's
  • (Anime) Showing the other universe's despair on finding fighters.
  • (Manga) Showing Jiren's more heroic side. How Belmod convinces him to participate.
  • (Both) Freeza and Frost meet and immediately starts plotting.
  • (Anime) The initial phase of the tournament, with everyone of U7 having their own battles.
  • (Manga) Goku fighting the Pride Troopers while trying to get to Jiren. Being overwhelmed by Dispo and Toppo, but using Blue to break free.
  • (Anime) The final battle between U7 and U9 being Goku&Vegeta vs the Trio de Danger, ending with the Final Kamehameha.
  • (Anime) Goku gets accosted by Caulifla, and the two start fighting. Kale gets jealous, transforms, and (Manga) starts wrecking everyone's shit, including Goku and Freeza, until (Anime) Jiren stops her.
  • (Anime) Kale and Caulifla's fight agains the Pride Troopers.
  • (Anime) Everything involving Frost, basically.
  • (Anime) Goku's entire fight against Jiren from the especial. Culminating with Hit's defeat.
  • (Anime) Goku's sparring session with Kale and Caulifla, ending with Kefla being formed and defeated by the second UIS.
  • (Anime) The fight against Anilaza.
  • (Anime) Goku and Vegeta teaming up against Jiren and throwing his momentum off.
  • (Manga) Vegeta unlocking SSBE against Toppo.
  • (Anime) GoD Toppo vs SSBE Vegeta. Want to mention, though, that I'd rather not have his Sacrifice attack as the finisher.
  • (Anime) Goku, Vegeta, 17 and Freeza against Jiren.
  • (Anime) UI Goku vs Jiren.
  • (Manga) Jiren ending up being victorious, but completely drained.
  • (Anime) Goku, Freeza and 17 versus Jiren.
  • (Both) 17 making the wish to restore the Universes.
So there we have it. To me, there are many moments worth keeping or expanding.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by batistabus » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:17 am

The only thing I can say I truly loved was the Japanese cast. I wish there was an official DB(S) manga Vomic like what Jaco got.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by BWri » Sat Apr 03, 2021 9:49 am

Quite a lot actually, since things drastically improved once we got to the Goku Black arc. But mainly, slice-of-life episodes. The episodic writers of the show do a lot to get us to learn and care about all the members of the cast. I wish the manga incorporated some of the developments from the anime actually, such as Krillin overcoming his PTSD. It saddens me that that character arc is not canon because it was so great.
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Trouser » Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:11 am

Openings and endings. First half of Future Trunks arc (after Zamasu and Black's fusion it went downhill and episodes were super rushed). The work of voice actors. Slice of Life episodes. Few last ToP episodes were beautiful (but still boring). Everything else was bad.
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by It_Is_Ayna_You_Flips » Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:05 am

There was a clear love for all the characters. Now, that love didn't always manifest into something good for the characters. Tenshinhan should just be forgotten, Yamcha should vanish into the background, and Gohan should stick to being a dad. Their characters arcs just re-emphasized how none of those characters have a role to play in the story. They are so far past their expiration date that their inclusion just feels forced. Like Tenshinhan and Yamcha showing up to the Cell Games.

But it was touching to see Roshi show off his experience and the inner fan-idiot in me went absolutely giddy to see Krillin get his own mini-arc. Heck, despite hating Vegeta since the Cell Arc, I'm even appreciating the attempts to make him a more three dimensional character (no longer is it just the imagination of over eager fans ;) ).

So I guess I appreciated the spirit behind DBS more than anything else.

Oh! Zamasu is a great villain. Bad arc. But a great villain. Felt like an actual escalation of the stakes from where we left off in the Buu Arc. Going from a warped god-entity to Jiren was a huge step down imo
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:32 pm

Everything.

Everything is superior than the manga, especially the ToP.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by PurestEvil » Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:55 pm

Slice of life, Zamasu, the ToP, Toei and Funi voice casts, and Arale-chan
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Alruneia » Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:33 pm

pepd wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:17 pm
I've been wanting to make this threat
No need to threaten us. :shock: Just joking, I know what you meant.

I agree with two of Grimlock's points: The usage of Super Saiyan 2, and the usage of Ultra Instinct Sign. I felt that both of those were done well in the anime and probably better there than in the manga, even when including UI Sign's appearance in the Moro arc. I also mostly agree with the consensus that the anime had nice slice of life episodes, though I will say that there were some of those that I didn't like so much.

Honestly, I probably won't ever rewatch the Super anime, at least not the 131 episodes we have right now, at any point unless I'm digging for specific information like a piece of dialogue or something. It wasn't good enough to be much more than a one-time thing. What I enjoyed the most about the Super anime wasn't the Super anime itself, it was all the fandom activity it generated.
pepd wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:17 pm
We all know a lot of people liked the anime as a whole, please lets avoid "everything"s, and keep the discussion about what people who didn't, liked about it.
While some comparisons can serve to analyze or explain a point, please lets also not derail the conversation into another manga vs anime discussion.
As if. :P
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by sunsetshimmer » Sun Apr 04, 2021 10:41 pm

Only fillers, basically. Not all of them cause some like that weird alien from space or Copy Vegeta were trash, but slice of life/meme episodes were mostly good. Episodes with Arale, Future Trunks visiting Gohan or U7 vs U6 baseball match were much better than main episodes.
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:08 am

I enjoyed the anime even with its obvious flaws.

- Slice of life episodes, for sure, most of them. Goten and Trunks getting Videl a gift doesn't make the cut for me.

- I liked that when Hit got cornered and his time skip was broken, he didn't just get stronger but improved his technique. A breath of fresh air for the never ending powercreep.

- SSBKK. It makes sense that by having god ki, controlling a technique developed by a god was now possible... for a while. I liked how it backfired and it took a lot of time for it to be mastered.

- Black's introduction. Oh. My. Kami.

- Black's personality. He actually looked like a power-drunk god, and not just a guy that gets cornered and panics. He looked like a guy with a well thought out plan.

- Vegito Blue. It gets a little old to see fusions casually stomp a guy, even more so if it doesn't accomplish anything. The anime had a great reason to introduce Vegito without being fan-service and also help in taking down Zamasu. Remove Vegito from the equation and Trunks would've never been able to defeat Zamasu.

- Merged Zamasu was THE hax character. Immortal, fused forever and much stronger than the heroes, and also a great challenge for their blue fusion. Merging with the fabric of time-space seemed like calling Zeno was the only way out of it.

- Roshi overcoming his sick persona.

- Jiren's power introduction. Knocking down SSBKKx20 Goku, the time skip, the time cage, deflecting a genki dama with his glare. Also having several cool techniques instead of just punching really hard.

- Jiren's downfall. He actually got humbled down on his own turf. Sure, he got taught teamwork's importance in the manga (also in the anime), but individually he still has every reason to feel he remains unmatched, he outlasted UI by just flexing a little bit more, by going the extra mile, his ego gets back up eventually. The anime had him have a mental breakdown twice, and get schooled on his terms. You want to fight one on one? fine, take this hell of a beating and now admit you got your ass handed to you. And now it's time for lesson 2: teamwork. Kiss your universe goodbye now.

- Toppo and Dyspo get a lot of screentime.

- 17. He didn't just hide until the war was over, he actively helped.

- ToP Freeza. Loved how he showed more sides of his character than just "I'll do nothing until the last second". It was great to see him choose his opponents, team up with other people including his sworn enemy. Also, the final W not being a one-man only thing.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Jack Bz » Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:15 am

I think the desperation of the last fight against Jiren is superior in the anime. Goku flashing in and out of super saiyan is one of the coolest visual elements of dragon ball I think. Such a great idea to show he's putting absolutely everything into it.

(It's a shame that the anime had a problem with characters rapidly gaining and depleting stamina though)

I also love Goku blacks characterisation a lot. He's very cool and collected up until the end, even though thematically it doesn't necessarily work with Zamasu's general cowardice (and Fused Zamasu's insanity). I think he should have broken down when Vegeta beat him (and cut the awful scythe clone nonsense). I like the idea that fusing while in a bad mental state would make Zamasu extra unhinged.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by nhienphan2808 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:21 am

The Super Dragon ball Arc and 17.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:16 pm

pepd wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 7:17 pm
-The idea (not the execution) of Zamasu predicating his ideology. While I think it was natural and necessary for Zamasu to go unhinged, it would have been nice if we saw his ideas shown and transform a little longer.
The execution too honestly. Zamasu literally had an entire philosophical debate with Gowasu in ep. 55, where they talked about the nature of good, evil, justice, the necessity for balance, the role of ningens, etc. and Zamasu explained and laid out his ideology to Gowasu, it was a clash of philosophies unlike anything else in Dragon Ball. Very underrated scene. I have found no such scene in the manga, so the anime definitely portrayed Zamasu's philosophy and fall from grace a lot better and in a much more fleshed-out way. And it's the reason why Zamasu is easily one of the best-written characters to come out of modern DB.
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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:53 pm

IMO, Anime 17 on his own is really something worth salvaging. While I can appreciate the hide 'n seek parallelism with Beerus' scuffle with Zeno and the other GoDs in the manga, I just don't find that interesting enough to just bring him back for that.
There was no need for 17 in any media, and I have no quarrel with him not being as strong as he was in the anime, but to have him just appear from behind a rock at the last micro-tak in an action-packed series pales in comparison with what he ended up providing in the anime. He really proved how much he was worth in 131, justifying his comeback.
He's a real joy to watch, not only in 131.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:10 pm

I always thought it was a great idea for Goku to take out a contract for Hit to kill him just so he'd have an excuse to follow up on their Tournament fight in the no-holds-barred way he suggested.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Thani » Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:43 pm

Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:53 pm
IMO, Anime 17 on his own is really something worth salvaging. While I can appreciate the hide 'n seek parallelism with Beerus' scuffle with Zeno and the other GoDs in the manga, I just don't find that interesting enough to just bring him back for that.
There was no need for 17 in any media, and I have no quarrel with him not being as strong as he was in the anime, but to have him just appear from behind a rock at the last micro-tak in an action-packed series pales in comparison with what he ended up providing in the anime. He really proved how much he was worth in 131, justifying his comeback.
He's a real joy to watch, not only in 131.
I think it could be easily solvable if he just reappeared when he did in the anime, but with the intent of playing dead always being there. Because the "idk I got lucky I guess" reasoning was really shoddy haha

Like "I was waiting for the double ko and stuff, but if I don't act now we're really screwed", or something in that angle.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:01 pm

I should also add hakai but only Beerus'. It left me speechless. Toppo's looked nice but too easy to overpower which makes the technique lose its punch. There's a big chance hakai will not be as easy to overpower in the following chapters, so with that possibility in mind, I like it even less.

Following up on Thani's idea, here's what the manga did great for me:

- the God-Blue switch. Amazing and creative. No need to keep bloating up the power levels, just find a way to improve the effectiveness of the forms. And keeps SSG relevant.

- Goku finally winning a fight, against Hit. I think since Namek that didn't happen.

- SSB not being already a full power form, requiring more than just unlocking it to be mastered. This helps dial down the powercreep, presenting a challenge to a non-mastered SSB doesn't mean everybody is now that strong. And the completed form is really out of this realm.

- A breath of fresh air to have Trunks not be inexplicably stronger and just being reduced to a healer in a bout among gods. This is dropped later when everybody gets a massive power up, leaving Vegeta's son in the dust, but still it was nice when it happened.

- SS Black. Great to see, even if he got owned at first. Getting to see an evil Goku going through his several forms was a treat.

- Black's way for getting stronger. It is consistent with saiyan and kaioshin biology, and it actually makes Zamasu useful by having to form a team in a cheating sort of way and not just another guy to fight. Zamasu being so much weaker is resolved in a clever way.

- Not going to the future constantly, and not having Black go to the past.

- Merged Zamasu vs PB Goku. Damn.

- The exhibition match. Seeing the GoDs fighting each other really was great, the anime tried to do that before the ToP but it just didn't do it for me. The manga went all out, having 10 GoDs defeated and two still standing.

- The ToP not wasting so much time on boring universes with uninteresting characters, having Kale accelerate the eliminations was really good.

- Kefla not being soooo much stronger than Goku. It isn't impossible what happened in the anime, but it was too much that Sign was needed, I mean a tired Goku on his own was enough for both of them. Too bad we never saw her fight lol.

- I liked Jiren being sort of an asshole, and not needing to be cornered for that side of him to be seen.

- Freeza using Frost as a fucking pawn was priceless.

- Sign not being defense only but an imperfect version of UI.


All in all, I think that a mixture of both media would've ended up in DBS being an incredible show.

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Re: What you found savable of the DBS anime

Post by Koitsukai » Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:08 pm

Thani wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:43 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:53 pm
IMO, Anime 17 on his own is really something worth salvaging. While I can appreciate the hide 'n seek parallelism with Beerus' scuffle with Zeno and the other GoDs in the manga, I just don't find that interesting enough to just bring him back for that.
There was no need for 17 in any media, and I have no quarrel with him not being as strong as he was in the anime, but to have him just appear from behind a rock at the last micro-tak in an action-packed series pales in comparison with what he ended up providing in the anime. He really proved how much he was worth in 131, justifying his comeback.
He's a real joy to watch, not only in 131.
I think it could be easily solvable if he just reappeared when he did in the anime, but with the intent of playing dead always being there. Because the "idk I got lucky I guess" reasoning was really shoddy haha

Like "I was waiting for the double ko and stuff, but if I don't act now we're really screwed", or something in that angle.
Oh definitely, yes. You could even have Jiren withstand Golden Freeza's rush attack (who gets the entire glory) and have 17 give him the final push without dropping off the arena. The Mr. Bean ending we got really put me off.

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