is piccolo god level in the manga?

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:01 pm

outside of which users have diverted the topic to useless comparisons ... because that is solved by watching the manga again with moments equals

Gohan manages to surprise Frieza distracted with a fit of anger ... being even weaker than Piccolo
and the tyrant was slow to react ... the same applies to Vegeta against Beerus and Trunks against Black
Black base also gets huge zenkais for both versions
which is not comparable to piccolo because they are saiyans
the last 2 are still much stronger and show it in a completely different situation than piccolo

Piccolo and Gohan are fighting directly against Sagambo which is not distracted if not fighting for a long time with them leaving the androids as observers of the fight because they cannot keep up ...
Piccolo has no zenkai and no rage increments.

He only has to increase his power by training ... if he is incoherent he is not really the main thing but the amount of feats that support him ...
The fact of attempting a suicide attack being in general strategic involving third parties in order to defeat Moro and that he take his threat seriously

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:37 pm

pepd wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:16 pm Quite the opposite, in RoF, U6 and ToP they reinforce what was established in DB, that Piccolo has been left behind. N17 and Freeza are explicitly established to have important grows because they have huge initial power and had never trained; again, the opposite of Piccolo, whose initial power was much lower and has always trained, and whose big and relevant power increases come from their fusion with Neil and Kami, not from regular training and generic lines about power increase that everyone has, but end up being irrelevant, that is what most resembles all these "proof".
Those sagas didn't reinforce anything. There is no such rule in the show that a character should be left behind. Writers can change their minds on stuff. This is DBS, where power ups usually don't make much sense. Piccolo is not a human like Krillin, Tien and Yamcha who have zero potential compared to aliens.

Only Frieza was stated to be strong because of his base power. 17 never had a statement specifically saying it was due to his base power being high. He was also stated in the manga that he barely even trained, he said so to Piccolo, and Goku said it again after the ToP. We know 18 currently is now 17 tier in the Moro Saga, given that she has feats that 17 could also do, and none of the androids outperformed each other. They both had good sync, and both scratched and impressed Moro. We also know that Krillin trained for this event. Logically, he should have trained with no other person than 18. If 17 got that strong with barely any training, then 18 should as well, since they both have similar potential.

And you are wrong that Piccolo's big increases only happened when he fused with someone. Don't forget the Android Saga. Piccolo got way stronger during the 3 years of training, to the point that he was already SSJ tier, when 3 years ago, he was nowhere near Base Goku against Frieza. Piccolo trained with SSJ Goku back then. It seems that training with someone far stronger made Piccolo receive big gains, and especially when knowing there was a future threat, in this case the androids. This comes back to my first point of this post. Piccolo only trained by himself and during peaceful times, which meant he could barely get big gains, which explains why he wasn't as strong during RoF, U6 or ToP.

Goku's quote, plus all the feats and narrative points in regards to who lasted longer against Saganbo, show that Piccolo is now above both androids, not just one.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Cipher » Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:38 pm

BWri wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:24 pm I'm not sure how these two ideas connect. Base Saiyans never really changed from how they worked in the Cell saga. That's why I never bought into any of the Base Saiyans are stronger than Frieza/Piccolo etc. Are you referring to base Saiyan combat feats?
Just as a bit of precedence in terms of fan readings. It was relatively common to argue that the human fighters had surpassed Freeza by the end of the original run, only for BoG to come out and offer a much more conservative reading.
It's not really a major pecking order change. These are two characters that weren't that different in power even as of the ToP. As far as ranking, Piccolo is literally just behind #17 in terms of power since it goes Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan >= #17, Piccolo, 18, humans. No one cares who surpasses who between these 2 unless you're a fan of either character. It's not like they're contending with MUI or SSBE or even FPSSB so no one is really invested other than Piccolo and 17 fans.

Piccolo even asks #17 what type of training he's been doing. I can understand if others don't see it this way, but to me this indicates that it's a level that Piccolo thinks he can reach if he improved his training. It could just show that he's flabbergasted about 17's power, but in hindsight it seems to be the former.
I do think it would feel somewhat significant, even as a race for fifth place or so, after the substantial attention paid to #17's unusual growth in the previous arc.

We read the Piccolo-#17 question very differently apparently; to me, Piccolo's line was intended to do nothing more than to remind the reader of the unexpected leaps #17 had made, as he was to play a key role in the arc and hadn't been able to clearly shows off his power for a few chapters by that point.
If we just take things at face value, Piccolo reaches this level as early as the U6 arc as: SSJ Goku/Vegeta (U6) >> Frost >= Piccolo > 3rd form Frost >= Base Goku and Vegeta after 3 years training post RoF >> Base Goku and Vegeta pre-3 years training *you could say that the statement made in the anime about not being able to get much stronger is true but it opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to character limits* >= RoF Final Form Frieza >> First Suppression Frieza >> SSJ Gohan > Tagoma > Piccolo >> Base Gohan.
I'm afraid I don't follow that logic at all. Super Saiyan Goku isn't implied to be radically stronger than he was in the Boo arc in the manga. Stronger than he would have been prior to the RoSaT training, sure, but Piccolo managing to keep Frost at bay (not by fighting directly; mostly by irritating him and not allowing him to get close) doesn't do much to present any great leaps in power for him. Frost himself would only have to be a Cell-level opponent to fit comfortably between Super Saiyan Goku and Piccolo as last known.

I would heavily debate the soundness of placing base Goku and Vegeta at final-form Freeza level, as the manga skips over "F" and omits all other signs of characters obtaining super-strong base forms as a consequence of the God-level transformations from the films. While the broad framework of the movies still holds true, I think it could be expected that the base forms aren't used against Freeza in the hypothetical manga-version of "F".

If even the film version of "F" is in a dubious place for exact strength scrutiny for the manga, than the TV version would be even more so. In the film, all we have from Piccolo is his fight against mooks and struggle with Shisami (which is hard to make heads or tails of). Nothing to go on.
There's no other evidence of this happening though, even when it's 5 on 1 vs. Saganbo. The closest thing I'll grant you was on an unskilled Kale when her power was drastically waning during the ToP, but the Saganbo fight was far removed from a scenario like that. There are no other instances team up amps in the series, none from Toyotaro. As a matter of fact we have a scenario that proves what you're saying is untrue with Dyspo and Toppo vs. Vegeta.
While we may not have any lopsided team fights beforehand, does it not stand to reason that if substantially weaker characters can team-up to make headway against stronger ones (Pride Troopers vs. Kale, Goku and Vegeta vs. Jiren), and technique can allow for momentary closing of astronomical gaps (Turtle Hermit's performance in the ToP generally, even accounting for Jiren's need to not kill him), a specifically practiced combination strategy could be a slight edge even with a lopsided pair? If 1+1 can get a good run against 5, why couldn't 4+2 get a good run against 7?

Though even that "slight edge" is kind of dubious. I went back through the Gohan-Piccolo vs. Saganbo scene last night too, and this is what everyone is making a fuss over:

1) Saganbo pushes #17 back, then #18, then everyone including Gohan and Piccolo with his first punch.

2) Saganbo picks up Gohan and #17 by their hair, swings them into their partners, then slams both into the ground.

3) There's a chapter transition, and in the next we open on Gohan and Piccolo zipping around Saganbo while #17 and #18 observe and talk (but it's not like they're out cold; more like they're taking a break for a moment to observe while Gohan and Piccolo try their team attack).

4) Saganbo immediately produces a shockwave attack, and Gohan and Piccolo backflip away.

5) Gohan and Piccolo rush back out of the backflips with a combined blast, which they fire at Saganbo point blank.

6) The blast does nothing, and Saganbo punches them out at the same time.

That's it. That's the entire fight. Here are the reasons I have issue with the certainty of a God-level Piccolo reading:

1) Since Gohan is taken out effortlessly alongside #17 at the start, one could assume that any advantage he has with Piccolo in tow (which is almost none, reading the scene) can be attributed to teamwork rather than strength.

2) The purpose of Gohan and Piccolo's teamwork was to provide an edge in strategy and technique, as seen during the Seven-Three fight.

3) There's no substantial success or headway against Saganbo highlighted. There's ample reason to just want to include a fun, partnered action sequence for a few pages, without it being a strength statement.

And then you have the lack of dialogue mentioned previously, whereas Toyotaro has generally been very clear with where and when characters have made substantial jumps in the overall tiering. Boo's power-down at the end of the arc indicates he still seems to hold God as an important threshold, which isn't accounted for in your (nor anyone else in this thread so far's) response.

I guess you can layer a God-level Piccolo onto events, but as it stands it's adding something that just isn't, really, in any way substantiated by the scene. It's just something that could be, were it to be confirmed, which it rather pointedly isn't. On the other hand it's very easy to conclude why that scene may be the way it is without needing that reading at all.

Were someone to comment on a God-level Piccolo, what we see could fit. But were no one to comment on that (which would be telling, with Toyotaro's precedent both within and prior to the arc), what we see could also fit, and that's what winds up being the case.
Nah, you're ignoring a lot to reach the conclusion you've reached. I see what you're saying and yes, many of us do take single action scenes and extrapolate too heavily from those, but you've gone in the opposite direction. Toyotaro has given us tons of proof, of feats, of statements, of buildup to show us that he wants Piccolo in the same conversation as Gohan and #17.
All the proof and statements except the one that would do the actual work of confirming it, which he isn't shy about doling out for other characters? Why?

And why take Boo out of that tier by the end of the arc if it's now something to be quietly reached?
There is legitimately a story thread of Piccolo's growth from RoF onwards if you use both anime and manga, and from U6 onwards if you use the manga exclusively. Your mileage simply may vary on if you believe Piccolo can get this strong or not. This being DBS where #17 and Frieza exists, and with Piccolo's previous track record of massive strength increases especially when training with others, I can easily buy into what Toyotaro is obviously selling.
Freeza and #17 get unquestionable feats and statements. If the same could be said for Piccolo under the same author, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Isn't it telling as comparison that it can't be?
I just find it equally as silly to assume that the series has added new tag team mechanics in place of an obvious increase in power that the main character directly references. Don't get me wrong, the tag team stuff is there, but it's used alongside the obvious power increases, not in place of them.
Obviously both elements are in the series, but we have instances of tag-team and even technique success in which it is highlighted very pointedly as something separate from strength. That's the thrust in all three of Pride Troopers vs. Kale, Goku and Vegeta vs. Jiren, and Turtle Hermit vs. Kaserhal and Jiren.

If we want to get down into the nitty-gritty of the Saganbo fight again, I'd suggest that if strength rather than teamwork were meant to be at the fore in terms of, say, a Piccolo vs. #17 comparison, the following would be true:

1) Piccolo and Gohan's entrance into the group holding back Saganbo's lunging punch against the androids at the start would make a visible difference. It does not.

2) Gohan and would be tossed around like a ragdoll alongside #17, as #18 and Piccolo are knocked away. (As in, if strength were a key factor, Gohan, and I suppose Piccolo himself, would be more on the ups from the start. That they get a partnered scene together in the next chapter would then be more the result of just being a better combination, rather than the strongest two.)
Another point to consider is that Piccolo himself, outside of Goku and maybe Vegeta, likely has the most action scenes out of all the other characters during the Moro arc (an arc where every other relevant U7 fighting character got a lot of fight scenes). Him and Vegeta might even be neck in neck in this regard. So, Toyotaro took a particular interest in showing off Piccolo's growth as a fighter and just plain ol' showing off Piccolo for whatever reason. He got more focus than you may realize.
I'm not arguing what Toyotaro went out of his way to give Piccolo in the arc, which is more action scenes than he's had in a while, and direct commentary on having gotten stronger.

But I think it's remiss to not look at what Toyotaro does not give Piccolo that he is perfectly willing to give other characters: More deliberately telling dialogue as to an increase in tiers/up to God level. In the game of trying to suss out authorial intent on character strength, sometimes what's left unsaid, with precedent, is just as important as what's said.

I also think it's remiss to ignore how Boo's power-increase to that very tier is handled by the arc. If the main cast were reaching that level left and right, Boo might have been expected to stay up there.

Re: Anime Trunks and the entirely different conversation taking place in this thread: If reading into the punches and kicks of a particular storyboard takes precedence over beats prior and afterward of Trunks being impressed by and weaker than Blue (shouldn't he have shrugged and said "Who cares?" when Vegeta showed him the form prior if he'd already matched it?), I don't know how anyone is supposed to have any conversation about strength in the series at all. Obviously the various writers and directors of Super as a weekly TV show weren't always keeping a close eye on how to keep presentation consistent with the overall thrust of character strength on a minute level, but that doesn't mean that overall thrust isn't made clear by major story beats. (Sometimes, with Super TV, it's also not made clear by major story beats, which is the TV version's burden to bear, but that's not the case with Trunks, at least.) I'd say it's a case of missing the forest for the trees, but in this case I suppose it's a case of missing the story for the kicks. This is a bent to power-level discussions in DB I find really hard to humor or identify with.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:30 pm

In regards to Boo. Obviously they wouldn't let him still have Dai Kai's memories forever. They needed to bring the usual Mr. Boo back. The plot needed that to happen one way or another.

It doesn't mean it has to be an example for other characters not being able to reach god tier.

Filling the story with more specific statements regarding Piccolo's power up wouldn't help moving the story forward and would be pointless to say in the situation the plot was at the time, unlike other characters' power ups mentioned in the manga in previous arcs that did help moving the plot, and had their reasons to be included.

This is why that's what feats are for. Sometimes it's best not to say a lot, and instead just show.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Cipher » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:44 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:30 pm In regards to Boo. Obviously they wouldn't let him still have Dai Kai's memories forever. They needed to bring the usual Mr. Boo back. The plot needed that to happen one way or another.
Why go out of the way to specify that his power went away with the memories though, if that's to be the new norm?
This is why that's what feats are for. Sometimes it's best not to say a lot, and instead just show.
Tell that to Toyotaro, whose series is the one we're interpreting. Statements are the precedent set, especially where the accompanying "feats" are, at most, interpretable. This is not an author who has put any other characters on that level with a wink and request to scrutinize specific action panels.

Even in this instance, Piccolo does get a dialogue statement. It's just pointedly not of the variety the other God-level characters get.
Last edited by Cipher on Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:53 pm

Cipher wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:38 pm 1) Saganbo pushes #17 back, then #18, then everyone including Gohan and Piccolo with his first punch.

2) Saganbo picks up Gohan and #17 by their hair, swings them into their partners, then slams both into the ground.

3) There's a chapter transition, and in the next we open on Gohan and Piccolo zipping around Saganbo while #17 and #18 observe and talk (but it's not like they're out cold; more like they're taking a break for a moment to observe while Gohan and Piccolo try their team attack).
I would say that 17 and 18 have unlimited energy to be tired in that battle ...
I would also say that in the manga the teamwork of 17 and 18 stood out more than that of Piccolo and Gohan, which is the first time they do it in the manga

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:11 pm

Cipher wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:44 pm Why go out of the way to specify that his power went away with the memories though, if that's to be the new norm?
I'm checking the manga right now. When did they specify that his power went away? The only thing said after Dai Kai returned to Boo at the end of the saga was a comment of Mr. Popo saying Boo no longer had memory of his time as Dai Kai. There was no comment regarding his power lowering down.
Tell that to Toyotaro, whose series is the one we're interpreting. Statements are the precedent set, especially where the accompanying "feats" are, at most, interpretable. This is not an author who has put any other characters on that level with a wink and request to scrutinize specific action panels.

Even in this instance, Piccolo does get a dialogue statement. It's just pointedly not of the variety the other God-level characters get.
Every time there was a statement of someone powering up was because it helped to move the plot. Again, there is no need for a "you are as strong as gods now!" Goku statement if such thing was necessary in an scenario where even ToP CSSB tier would be considered fodder. 17's, Trunks', Buu's, Frieza's... all of their power ups were mentioned because they were vital for the plot. One statement for Piccolo (him being barely recognizable) should be enough since the feats speak for themselves here and help to emphasize that statement. I'll remind again the Dyspo and Toppo team (two people that have always worked as a team due to being Pride Troopers) failed against CSSB Vegeta. All the examples of teamwork during DBS that worked were from two or more people that were not that far from each other. There was never a case when such teamwork happened with one being like 1% of the other's strength, especially on a death match.

There's a reason why Piccolo was made to fight alongside the big guys like Goku and Gohan, against Moro 73, instead of 17. If they wanted to show that 17 was still way stronger than Piccolo, they could have made him fight instead of Piccolo, or at least show that he was still the same 17 from the ToP that was one of the top strongest. But the Moro Saga literally did everything to make the narrative do the opposite.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Cipher » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:38 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:11 pm
Cipher wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:44 pm Why go out of the way to specify that his power went away with the memories though, if that's to be the new norm?
I'm checking the manga right now. When did they specify that his power went away? The only thing said after Dai Kai returned to Boo at the end of the saga was a comment of Mr. Popo saying Boo no longer had memory of his time as Dai Kai. There was no comment regarding his power lowering down.
Going to eat some crow on this. I apparently completely misremembered that. I went back to the scene just now and the only mention was of his memories disappearing.

I was convinced there was also a line about the power going with it, but that isn't the case.

Sorry about that! Admittedly that makes the Piccolo reading a little more plausible too.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:30 am

Gotta love Toyo handing out power ups to Piccolo and 18 after treating them like garbage in the ToP. Even Krillin got a small powerup and a nice W against the panda man. Poor Tien though...

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by FrioPolar » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:24 am

Trunks getting lucky.

The obsession that some people have with justifying all the inconsistencies in Dragon Ball Super.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta and he's on the level of Rosé Black. He has several feats to prove it.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Cipher » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:12 am

FrioPolar wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:24 am The obsession that some people have with justifying all the inconsistencies in Dragon Ball Super.
...Wouldn't it make more sense to consider the action in that one episode the inconsistency than story beats like Trunks being awed by Super Saiyan Blue?

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Thani » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:42 am

Cipher wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:12 am
FrioPolar wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:24 am The obsession that some people have with justifying all the inconsistencies in Dragon Ball Super.
...Wouldn't it make more sense to consider the action in that one episode the inconsistency than story beats like Trunks being awed by Super Saiyan Blue?
Yes, yes it would. Why he's overthinking so much about this stuff is beyond me.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:59 am

He is one-shot by SS3 Goku, doesn't train, spars with his father and can't believe SSB, hangs out with his present self, keeps doing nothing to improve his power that couldn't match base Black and made him run shit-scared to the past, and by virtue of doing nothing becomes... blue level? and then unlocks a new form and... reaches blue level again?

or what if maybe shitty writers are to blame and instead of dropping like 10 pieces of evidence hinting he is not blue level in favour of just one action scene, we drop said action scene?

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:13 am

I can see Piccolo being above SSJ2 and maybe even SSJ3 Goku, because in fact this is a level of power that is irrelevant in the face of the big bad guys so it makes sense that this power up goes unnoticed (if we are arguing about the reason for the lack of more precise / specific statements about his strength).

But as Cipher said, the God level still seems to be treated as a big deal in the story. Characters like 17, Gohan and Boo had their power / potential highlighted when they entered that tier, so the lack of something like that for Piccolo in fact hurts the notion that he has reached that level too. We only know that he is much stronger than before (to the extent that Goku barely recognizes him), but in the current situation this is as vague as possible.

I would like that to be the case tho, as long as the writers were willing to create a current character arc that has importance in the plot and that highlights this growth of Piccolo.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:43 am

I think I agree that the manga doesn't give Piccolo the God-level rank directly, but I don't think this is the only way to justify a strength assessment. If you check Boo's fight vs. Moro, we don't have a direct statement confirming Boo is God-level either. Goku only says, despite not having his energy sapped, he is much stronger than before. So, actually we assume Boo is God-level, because of subtext. Boo can beat Moro in a level SSGod can't. And this same subtext is what makes us assume Boo is weaker than SSBlue, because Vegeta is sure Moro's battle power hasn't increased to the point that one of them couldn't beat him.

While Piccolo's situation is definetely not as clear as Boo is, there are some instances that imply he is not that far from Gohan or 17. When they fight OG73-I, Shimorekka says to switch to Gohan's skill, because he is the stronger one, but if Piccolo was that much weaker than Gohan, I don't think he could coordinate so well, to the point that he could follow Gohan's movements while he dodged several ki blasts, and at the same time predicting where Gohan should land his feet to make headway against OG73-I's barrage.

I believe good coordination requires that the parties aren't that far off from each other, like the Metamorian fusion technique. If Gohan was that much stronger than Piccolo, his intervention could disrupt the balance needed for the combo. This is why the big fights usually require the weaker fighters to keep a safe distance, to not disturb a better approach.

I'm not saying this is the case of Gohan and Piccolo vs 17 and 18, it could be only a matter of making two different assaults, as they did when (Sign) Goku was defeated. But during the fight against Moro, it certainly doesn't seem like 17 is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo also doesn't justify the need of having 17 around because of his strenght, but rather because of his absence of ki. I believe that kinda fits with this sometimes what's left unsaid is just as important as what's said approach. 17 is about as strong as Goku and Vegeta used to be (probably close to SSBlue) and him and 18 had power Moro wished he could take. Piccolo was also kept alive, so Moro could take his energy later.

After all those events, I would say it's very difficult to assume Piccolo doesn't have a considerable battle power. Perhaps he is not as strong as Gohan or 17 or Boo, but God-level seems fair to justify Moro's interest on his energy.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by BWri » Fri Apr 09, 2021 11:57 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:13 am I can see Piccolo being above SSJ2 and maybe even SSJ3 Goku, because in fact this is a level of power that is irrelevant in the face of the big bad guys so it makes sense that this power up goes unnoticed (if we are arguing about the reason for the lack of more precise / specific statements about his strength).

But as Cipher said, the God level still seems to be treated as a big deal in the story. Characters like 17, Gohan and Boo had their power / potential highlighted when they entered that tier, so the lack of something like that for Piccolo in fact hurts the notion that he has reached that level too. We only know that he is much stronger than before (to the extent that Goku barely recognizes him), but in the current situation this is as vague as possible.
I've said it before, SSJ3 is my absolute lowball for Piccolo during the last half of the Moro arc. I can see him being at that level but with techniques that are massively amped. His charged techniques are easily past SSG tier and whatever he threatened Moro with has to be at least SSB level for Piccolo to think it'll do anything. All in all however, I don't think he needs story significance to reach SSG level at this point in the story. SSG is not a significant amount of power for the power players. And let's not forget that SSJ Trunks had already reached SSJ3 tier power 2 arcs prior to the Moro arc. Goku's SSJ3 now is much much more powerful than it was then.
I would like that to be the case tho, as long as the writers were willing to create a current character arc that has importance in the plot and that highlights this growth of Piccolo.
I'd love this, but he already has a little mini-story if you take in all the subtext. And it's a pretty good one (by modern Dragon Ball standards), but was basically given minimal panel space. I also like the juxtaposition of Piccolo's big increases being less dramatic than Goku and Vegeta's. It's similar to how when he fought Gohan in the anime and Gohan does this big dramatic powerup to reach FPSSJ2 and Piccolo just flairs up his ki and basically matches Gohan more or less. It's kinda cool that he's this no frills no-nonsense fighter. Gohan seems to be also headed in that direction with his Ultimate state.
Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:43 am While Piccolo's situation is definetely not as clear as Boo is, there are some instances that imply he is not that far from Gohan or 17. When they fight OG73-I, Shimorekka says to switch to Gohan's skill, because he is the stronger one, but if Piccolo was that much weaker than Gohan, I don't think he could coordinate so well, to the point that he could follow Gohan's movements while he dodged several ki blasts, and at the same time predicting where Gohan should land his feet to make headway against OG73-I's barrage.
Good point! There's also the fact that Gohan could not immediately one-shot or blitz OG73 the first time they fought when 73 was using power that was directly equal to Piccolo's. 73's body has better durability than Piccolo's along with infinite stamina, but the fact that a Gohan who previously tied with Kefla could not completely dominate someone at Piccolo's level says a lot about Piccolo before the 2 months of intense training and prep. It took 20 pages for Gohan to force 73 to use Moro's backup power.
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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:38 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 10:13 am I can see Piccolo being above SSJ2 and maybe even SSJ3 Goku, because in fact this is a level of power that is irrelevant in the face of the big bad guys so it makes sense that this power up goes unnoticed (if we are arguing about the reason for the lack of more precise / specific statements about his strength).

But as Cipher said, the God level still seems to be treated as a big deal in the story. Characters like 17, Gohan and Boo had their power / potential highlighted when they entered that tier, so the lack of something like that for Piccolo in fact hurts the notion that he has reached that level too. We only know that he is much stronger than before (to the extent that Goku barely recognizes him), but in the current situation this is as vague as possible.

I would like that to be the case tho, as long as the writers were willing to create a current character arc that has importance in the plot and that highlights this growth of Piccolo.
I already explained that characters like 17, Gohan and Boo needed their powers to be highlighted since it helped moving the story forward. Specific statements for Piccolo would be pointless in this current arc. It would seem out of nowhere in the context of the narrative.

And it's not true that god level is treated as a big deal anymore. Characters like Goku and Vegeta have already gotten way too strong. Even ToP CSSB level is no longer a threat, as evidenced with Gohan's performance against Saganbo. SSG is fodder at this point. Piccolo reaching god level would totally be unnoticed with this current power creep (notice that even Gohan is considered fodder, the same Gohan that tied with Kefla back in the ToP). If anything, it seemed as if Piccolo did reach that level given how he was wondering why the gap between them and CSSB Goku was still very large. Even if he was also taking Gohan into account, it wouldn't make sense if Piccolo was still a weakling SSJ3 tier fighter. This, coupled with the fact that 17 and 18 were both shown to be on the same tier, with Gohan and Piccolo above, being able to team up against Saganbo and coordinate attacks, make me seriously doubt that 17 is above Piccolo, or that Piccolo is still as weak as SSJ3 given how a Dyspo and Toppo team completely failed against CSSB Vegeta.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:38 pm

FrioPolar wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:24 am Trunks getting lucky:

The obsession that some people have with justifying all the inconsistencies in Dragon Ball Super.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta and he's on the level of Rosé Black.

He has several feats to prove it.
you are simply not contributing anything to the subject in question
you are the obsessed ... and I already reported it to the moderators

you just use the same scene .. again vegeta VS Beerus
surprise a character with anger ...
https://i.ibb.co/jwNrZ45/gugbik.jpg
https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploa ... -drago.jpg
and Gohan vs frieza
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=46149&start=100
Also what is the point of trunks getting a new transformation that is a derivative of SSJ2 that gives him a power to face black

and it is not the same as piccolo's situation so it has nothing to do with it
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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by BWri » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:00 pm

Cipher wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:38 pm
BWri wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:24 pm If we just take things at face value, Piccolo reaches this level as early as the U6 arc as: SSJ Goku/Vegeta (U6) >> Frost >= Piccolo > 3rd form Frost >= Base Goku and Vegeta after 3 years training post RoF >> Base Goku and Vegeta pre-3 years training *you could say that the statement made in the anime about not being able to get much stronger is true but it opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to character limits* >= RoF Final Form Frieza >> First Suppression Frieza >> SSJ Gohan > Tagoma > Piccolo >> Base Gohan.
I'm afraid I don't follow that logic at all. Super Saiyan Goku isn't implied to be radically stronger than he was in the Boo arc in the manga. Stronger than he would have been prior to the RoSaT training, sure, but Piccolo managing to keep Frost at bay (not by fighting directly; mostly by irritating him and not allowing him to get close) doesn't do much to present any great leaps in power for him. Frost himself would only have to be a Cell-level opponent to fit comfortably between Super Saiyan Goku and Piccolo as last known.

I would heavily debate the soundness of placing base Goku and Vegeta at final-form Freeza level, as the manga skips over "F" and omits all other signs of characters obtaining super-strong base forms as a consequence of the God-level transformations from the films. While the broad framework of the movies still holds true, I think it could be expected that the base forms aren't used against Freeza in the hypothetical manga-version of "F".

If even the film version of "F" is in a dubious place for exact strength scrutiny for the manga, than the TV version would be even more so. In the film, all we have from Piccolo is his fight against mooks and struggle with Shisami (which is hard to make heads or tails of). Nothing to go on.
I was going with the promotional manga, since we have nothing else to go on other than the anime or movie. The promo manga has slightly different events from both, but in all three Goku fights Frieza in base. I won't hover on this though because as you say, it's not in Toyotaro's official manga. But I will say that the power scaling in all 3 follow the same path. Base Goku and Final Frieza are above all the Earthlings including Gohan. In the promo manga, 1st form Frieza is also said to be much stronger than SSJ Gohan and Piccolo. Since Toyotaro worked on the promo manga, it's hard for me to believe he'd change things up drastically from how it was presented there especially when the other adaptations have the same events. When you consider that then the power scaling I presented above is accurate since it would mean Goku in base is radically stronger than SSJ Gohan which is lock step with how things were presented by the end of BoG. Gohan is likely at least somewhat stronger than he was at the start of the Buu saga which means Goku in base is stronger than a MSSJ.

With events proceeding the same in all 3 mediums and with the author of the official manga being the author of the promo manga, I would say that the logic I've presented is stronger than what you have.
I will actually agree with you here. After re-reading the entirely of the fight with Saganbo, I do believe that I have personally placed a lot of stock on individual panels of these fight scenes and on some of the fights scenes themselves. I won't lie and say that I wasn't hyped seeing Piccolo fight side by side with Gohan, #17 and SSB Goku. And I think you're right to say that many of us have taken a microscope to these panels and may have overestimated the meaning in some. It is just a quick fight scene and Gohan and Piccolo basically make no headway vs. Saganbo and Moro.

But that's where I break with you, because even though individual panels of the story don't tell the whole picture and even though the Saganbo fight alone or the Moro fight alone don't show much outside of the feats we scalers love. When you put both those fights together, then add all three 73 fights to that and you compare it with previous arcs and then you add Goku's statement on top of that, you get something that's very compelling. You get the story of a green guy increasing his power because he's either being underestimated or put in a situation where needs to to push his disciple to new levels and to protect the Earth whenever Goku isn't there. The story of a guy who sees old rivals like Frieza and #17 completely surpass him and doesn't want to remain outclassed by them. A guy whose been quietly and drastically increasing his power every arc and whose work goes unnoticed because everyone else is at a level so far removed from his. It all adds up and the feats just back it up. There are times when the action breaks from the logic and times when the action enforces the logic and everything Piccolo related in the manga backs up his big power boosts from arc to arc.

And I see that you later mention that Buu wasn't said to be depowered so I won't address that. The team up stuff, as I said before is used in addition to the power boosts. Toyotaro is adding strategy back into the fights as well as the cool factor that you mentioned. I don't see this drastically boosting an individual fighter's strength though. Certain attacks will simply be a product of combined ki such as what we saw from #17 & #18 and Gohan & Piccolo. Attacking together doesn't suddenly make these fighters 10 or 100x stronger, faster, or more durable. It doesn't boost stats is what many of us are saying. Moro boosts stats. Piccolo's combos with Gohan don't, but sure they'll sometimes give a tactical advantage which is a fun new addition to the series.
Freeza and #17 get unquestionable feats and statements. If the same could be said for Piccolo under the same author, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Isn't it telling as comparison that it can't be?
That's really our big disagreement. I think the subtext is enough and you want something more explicit. I think we're both right to some degree, in that there is precedent in the series to validate what you say but there is also precedent to validate my views.

On my end, if we go by the Daizenshuu (which I don't normally do), we have Krillin's massive strength increase. Piccolo doesn't even comment on how strong Krillin and Gohan became when he arrives to Namek even though they were at least 4x as strong as he was on Earth. Then later, according the the Daiz, Krillin's power grows all the way to 75,000 bp which is stronger than all the Ginyu's other than the Cpt. No one says he's barely recognizeable even though he is! Only Gohan gets a special mention even though Krillin grew 6x what he was from only the previous battle. Vegeta mentions that their BP continues to rise but he doesn't compare Krillin to the Ginyu's.

That's because previous thresholds of power rarely get commented on if not relevant to the current battle. Same with the humans once they were revived from King Kai's. It follows suit after the 3 years of training, no one comments on the humans growth. Same with Piccolo after the 7 year time skip. He's clearly never stopped training but his power isn't plot relevant.

Super continues this with Gohan and Piccolo. We just know that they both continue to train but no direct comparisons are made until Gohan's somewhat plot relevant boost during the ToP. And finally Piccolo gets his "barely recognize" statement from Goku in the same arc where Piccolo gives the same statement to Vegeta. There's also fighters like Cabba in the ToP. Cabba's clearly been training, but Vegeta doesn't directly reference whatever strength increase he's made because it's not relevant to the power players. There's probably more, but you get the gist.
Obviously both elements are in the series, but we have instances of tag-team and even technique success in which it is highlighted very pointedly as something separate from strength. That's the thrust in all three of Pride Troopers vs. Kale, Goku and Vegeta vs. Jiren, and Turtle Hermit vs. Kaserhal and Jiren.
These aren't really good examples. PT vs Kale as previously mentioned featured an inexperienced fighter with glaring weaknesses whose power was drastically waning vs. I believe it was 4 experienced Pride Troopers (**it's actually 6). The power gap being seemingly mitigated due to Kale's plummeting stamina and heavily telegraphed attacks according to Vegeta.

Goku and Vegeta were both relative to Jiren. Certainly not the same as an SSJ3 level fighter or Cell level, as you initially deduced when we talked about this previously, keeping up with someone who's clearly SSB level and who is taking hits from someone far above that.

Roshi vs Kahseral and Jiren is the complete inverse of what you're suggesting.

There is nothing to suggest that the tag team mechanics circumvent the power mechanics in any way. Not in any of the examples you just provided.
If we want to get down into the nitty-gritty of the Saganbo fight again, I'd suggest that if strength rather than teamwork were meant to be at the fore in terms of, say, a Piccolo vs. #17 comparison, the following would be true:

1) Piccolo and Gohan's entrance into the group holding back Saganbo's lunging punch against the androids at the start would make a visible difference. It does not.

2) Gohan and would be tossed around like a ragdoll alongside #17, as #18 and Piccolo are knocked away. (As in, if strength were a key factor, Gohan, and I suppose Piccolo himself, would be more on the ups from the start. That they get a partnered scene together in the next chapter would then be more the result of just being a better combination, rather than the strongest two.)
That scene is just meant to show that none of the fighters there stands a chance against Saganbo even combined. We already know that Gohan and Piccolo are both weaker than Saganbo. Their individual strength is nothing compared to his which is why they combine ki attacks later. What matters is that in this same skirmish the two fighters with infinite stamina are knocked away, lament that Saganbo is too much, and do not further contribute to the fight while the other two fighters without infinite stamina continue fighting at a seemingly higher level than before.
Re: Anime Trunks and the entirely different conversation taking place in this thread: If reading into the punches and kicks of a particular storyboard takes precedence over beats prior and afterward of Trunks being impressed by and weaker than Blue (shouldn't he have shrugged and said "Who cares?" when Vegeta showed him the form prior if he'd already matched it?), I don't know how anyone is supposed to have any conversation about strength in the series at all. Obviously the various writers and directors of Super as a weekly TV show weren't always keeping a close eye on how to keep presentation consistent with the overall thrust of character strength on a minute level, but that doesn't mean that overall thrust isn't made clear by major story beats. (Sometimes, with Super TV, it's also not made clear by major story beats, which is the TV version's burden to bear, but that's not the case with Trunks, at least.) I'd say it's a case of missing the forest for the trees, but in this case I suppose it's a case of missing the story for the kicks. This is a bent to power-level discussions in DB I find really hard to humor or identify with.
I have to agree completely, everyone. I haven't chimed in on that part of the discussion, but the anime has more people writing it and more people drawing it and these aren't the same people from episode to episode. As such, the anime is much more inconsistent. If you want to glean author intent, you'll want to compare those same story beats to the manga. Whatever lives in both is likely what Toriyama-san intended. Doing this sort of hyperfocusing on certain frames in the anime even when they are contradicted by other scenes and direct statements doesn't advance much in the way of discussion. I do this as a joke sometimes whenever I refer to the RoF anime adaptation because Piccolo never took his weights off when fighting Tagoma and was wearing them when he bypassed Tagoma and Frieza's Death Beam to save Gohan. So is Piccolo w/weights > Ginyu/Togoma? Is he stronger than SSJ Gohan too since Gohan couldn't react to the attack while Piccolo bypassed Togama and covered more ground in his weights OR is this just an animation inconsistency from animators who forgot that Piccolo's cape and turban are weighted?
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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:08 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:38 pm And it's not true that god level is treated as a big deal anymore. Characters like Goku and Vegeta have already gotten way too strong. Even ToP CSSB level is no longer a threat, as evidenced with Gohan's performance against Saganbo. SSG is fodder at this point
SSG level is a big deal for the main cast. That's why we have Goku being impressed by the power of 17 and Boo, for example. Obviously Goku and Vegeta are already far above that, but except for the antagonists this is not that normal. Even the Gods of Destruction mentioned that the fight between SSG Goku and Toppo was at '' their level '' (of course not literally)
dragonball0900 wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 12:38 pm ]This, coupled with the fact that 17 and 18 were both shown to be on the same tier, with Gohan and Piccolo above, being able to team up against Saganbo
So do you think that 18, who has literally no line implying that she trained or got stronger (unlike Piccolo and Gohan), is as strong as 17 or reached God level just because of their team up? It seems much more reasonable to say that both are simply capable of fighting in a coordinated and synchronized way, just like Piccolo and Gohan. Although this is not something common in the original series (characters of such different levels being able to keep up with each other), it is clear that DBS has taken a different route in both anime and manga.

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