Cipher wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:17 pm
BWri wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:55 amYou'd hardly be able to figure out anyone's strength with that sort of thinking
and it's just not how Dragon Ball works. In U6 alone Piccolo kept shattering everyone's expectations of himself which was a theme clearly shown in the text and via his performance in both mediums.
We found out fifteen years after the original series ended that neither base Goku nor, by extension, any of the humans, had ever eclipsed Namek-era Freeza despite many fan readings to the contrary.
I think there’s fair room to say that is, indeed, how
Dragon Ball works.
I'm not sure how these two ideas connect. Base Saiyans never really changed from how they worked in the Cell saga. That's why I never bought into any of the Base Saiyans are stronger than Frieza/Piccolo etc. Are you referring to base Saiyan combat feats?
Of course characters can eclipse past villains without comment, but I can’t think of many instances of a major pecking order change, which Piccolo surpassing No. 17 would be, being glossed over entirely.
It's not really a major pecking order change. These are two characters that weren't that different in power even as of the ToP. As far as ranking, Piccolo is literally just behind #17 in terms of power since it goes Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan >= #17, Piccolo, 18, humans. No one cares who surpasses who between these 2 unless you're a fan of either character. It's not like they're contending with MUI or SSBE or even FPSSB so no one is really invested other than Piccolo and 17 fans.
Piccolo even asks #17 what type of training he's been doing. I can understand if others don't see it this way, but to me this indicates that it's a level that Piccolo thinks he can reach if he improved his training. It could just show that he's flabbergasted about 17's power, but in hindsight it seems to be the former.
It’s also somewhat hard for me to align a character quietly reaching that level in this single instance when the arc takes care to undo Boo’s ascension into that realm by its end.
If we just take things at face value, Piccolo reaches this level as early as the U6 arc as:
SSJ Goku/Vegeta (U6) >> Frost >= Piccolo > 3rd form Frost >= Base Goku and Vegeta after 3 years training post RoF >> Base Goku and Vegeta pre-3 years training *you could say that the statement made in the anime about not being able to get much stronger is true but it opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to character limits* >= RoF Final Form Frieza >> First Suppression Frieza >> SSJ Gohan > Tagoma > Piccolo >> Base Gohan.
I don't think Gohan in RoF is anywhere close to his Cell saga self, I just don't think he was anywhere near his Buu saga peak either. SSJ Gohan in RoF being somewhere stronger than he was at start of the Buu arc makes the most sense, because he did get a Z-sword training powerup prior to Old Kai unlocking his potential. Using that Gohan as a comparison, it's obvious that Piccolo becomes a top tier Buu arc fighter as early as his fight with Frost. And he gains an exponential amount of power from U6 to the ToP. Anime wise, Piccolo absolutely dwarfs his U6 self by the time of the ToP while in the manga, there's a high likelihood that he's greatly surpassed Frost who going all out at full power briefly struggled with an enemy that a heavily supressed Piccolo did.
That also seems indicative to me of what’s on Toyotaro’s mind re: God-tier characters, and the instances of teamwork and technique focus in Super enough for me to have no issue with any presentational discrepancies in terms of Piccolo’s performance vs. No. 17’s. Especially since No. 17 and Gohan are equally trounced in their own when the coordinated teamwork element isn’t in play, despite Gohan being the undisputed top dog among good guys in the fight. Seems like a sign to read something other than raw strength into the slight, relative success of Gohan and Piccolo together in comparison.
There's no other evidence of this happening though, even when it's 5 on 1 vs. Saganbo. The closest thing I'll grant you was on an unskilled Kale when her power was drastically waning during the ToP, but the Saganbo fight was far removed from a scenario like that. There are no other instances team up amps in the series, none from Toyotaro. As a matter of fact we have a scenario that proves what you're saying is untrue with Dyspo and Toppo vs. Vegeta.
Of course Piccolo has improved, but if the question we’re getting at here is “Does Toyotaro think Piccolo is SSG level?”, I would say “Probably not.”
Another point being, that god level is a constantly moving measuring stick. A lot of people don't understand that. Because Goku and Vegeta continue to improve, these levels are constantly changing arc to arc, so much that I'd say Piccolo has easily surpassed SSG from BoG. The level of SSJ3 that Goku was using on #17 to recruit him likely surpassed that as well ... unless all of Goku and Vegeta's power strictly comes from improving their God forms and not their mortal forms to which the story does not make that distinction.
Fans have a tendency to overestimate the intended level of characters based on incidental bits of action (look no further than this thread, in which we have people claiming anime Trunks is supposed to have been Blue-level based on taking or not taking certain hits, despite his awe over the form and later attainment of one closer to—but still not matching—it being plot points), and especially in this particular case we’re given other angles from which to read how the action plays out.
Nah, you're ignoring a lot to reach the conclusion you've reached. I see what you're saying and yes, many of us do take single action scenes and extrapolate too heavily from those, but you've gone in the opposite direction. Toyotaro has given us tons of proof, of feats, of statements, of buildup to show us that he wants Piccolo in the same conversation as Gohan and #17. He also wants #18 there, but hasn't provided much buildup for that one. He can handwave it at any time by directly stating or more explicitly implying that she's been training, since there's the precedent already with #17.
There is legitimately a story thread of Piccolo's growth from RoF onwards if you use both anime and manga, and from U6 onwards if you use the manga exclusively. Your mileage simply may vary on if you believe Piccolo can get this strong or not. This being DBS where #17 and Frieza exists, and with Piccolo's previous track record of massive strength increases especially when training with others, I can easily buy into what Toyotaro is obviously selling.
In the corner of Piccolo not being God-level, I see a wealth of authorial precedence in terms of how both series have tended to operate, while in the corner of Piccolo being God-level, I see a particular reading of a handful of action panels, logic the likes of which has historically led to silly conclusions like Trunks being intended to be even with Blue.
I just find it equally as silly to assume that the series has added new tag team mechanics in place of an obvious increase in power that the main character directly references. Don't get me wrong, the tag team stuff is there, but it's used alongside the obvious power increases, not in place of them.
Another point to consider is that Piccolo himself, outside of Goku and maybe Vegeta, likely has the most action scenes out of all the other characters during the Moro arc (an arc where every other relevant U7 fighting character got a lot of fight scenes). Him and Vegeta might even be neck in neck in this regard. So, Toyotaro took a particular interest in showing off Piccolo's growth as a fighter and just plain ol' showing off Piccolo for whatever reason. He got more focus than you may realize.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-