is piccolo god level in the manga?

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:35 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:38 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:04 pm
dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:37 pm
Actually, the attack did not kill anyone due to them being inside a hole that Tien created with his Kikoho.

It was even said in the story that if everyone received Piccolo's attack, they would have all been dead.
the explosion encompassed the entire island ...
and the humans who were in the city did not die according to chiaotzu himself

and if you want another example the explosion that vegeta caused against several dying in the saiyan arc
Maybe due to the distance, they weren't killed. The fact is that anyone close to the attack would have died for sure. Tien and the others didn't hide inside the whole made by his Kikoho for nothing. They wouldn't be able to tank Piccolo's explosion and survive since the story clearly stated they would have been killed.

And about Saiyan arc Vegeta, which example are you talking about?
you are assuming that ... although clearly the explosion covered the entire island
I could say the same and say that goku and zamasu received most of the impact since the explosion is concentrated and is smaller in comparison

this attack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4uwyRFgUw

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:45 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:35 pm
dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:38 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:04 pm

the explosion encompassed the entire island ...
and the humans who were in the city did not die according to chiaotzu himself

and if you want another example the explosion that vegeta caused against several dying in the saiyan arc
Maybe due to the distance, they weren't killed. The fact is that anyone close to the attack would have died for sure. Tien and the others didn't hide inside the whole made by his Kikoho for nothing. They wouldn't be able to tank Piccolo's explosion and survive since the story clearly stated they would have been killed.

And about Saiyan arc Vegeta, which example are you talking about?
you are assuming that ... although clearly the explosion covered the entire island
I could say the same and say that goku and zamasu received most of the impact since the explosion is concentrated and is smaller in comparison

this attack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4uwyRFgUw
It's not assuming. Goku and everyone else literally agreed that they would have been killed if they didn't leave the battlefield. Tien had to use his Kikoho to save everyone. If people in other areas survived, then it's simply because they were far away. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for them not to be killed, yet Kami, Tien and the others were implied to die if they didn't hide inside the hole made by Tien's Kikoho.

As for Vegeta, you should remember that he was weakened terribly. At that point he had used his energy to create the fake moon for him to transform into Oozaru, then he had tanked a Spirit Bomb and was severely injured. When Gohan transformed into Oozaru, Vegeta said that if he was at full power he would have easily beat him. But instead in the state he was at the time, he was losing, and had to resort to cut Oozaru Gohan's tail.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:11 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:56 pm
Zamasu and Goku black never fight seriously with trunks they let him escape on purpose several times ... Zamasu more than anything decides to show him his immortality
And Trunks Gets The SSJ "Rage" In Episode 61 overcoming the power of zamasu
I'm talking about when Goku and Vegeta went to help Trunks in the future for the first time. They just weren't killed because Mai saved them, so it is obvious that Zamasu was not holding back there, and yet SSJ2 Trunks overwhelmed him completely.

In the EP 63, the same thing happened, when Zamasu barely managed to keep up with a tired SSJ2 Trunks (again, not against SSJ Rage, just SSJ2 Trunks). And in this EP they just didn't kill Trunks because Goku and Vegeta interfered

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:11 pm

dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:45 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:35 pm
dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:38 pm
Maybe due to the distance, they weren't killed. The fact is that anyone close to the attack would have died for sure. Tien and the others didn't hide inside the whole made by his Kikoho for nothing. They wouldn't be able to tank Piccolo's explosion and survive since the story clearly stated they would have been killed.

And about Saiyan arc Vegeta, which example are you talking about?
you are assuming that ... although clearly the explosion covered the entire island
I could say the same and say that goku and zamasu received most of the impact since the explosion is concentrated and is smaller in comparison

this attack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4uwyRFgUw
It's not assuming. Goku and everyone else literally agreed that they would have been killed if they didn't leave the battlefield. Tien had to use his Kikoho to save everyone. If people in other areas survived, then it's simply because they were far away. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for them not to be killed, yet Kami, Tien and the others were implied to die if they didn't hide inside the hole made by Tien's Kikoho.

As for Vegeta, you should remember that he was weakened terribly. At that point he had used his energy to create the fake moon for him to transform into Oozaru, then he had tanked a Spirit Bomb and was severely injured. When Gohan transformed into Oozaru, Vegeta said that if he was at full power he would have easily beat him. But instead in the state he was at the time, he was losing, and had to resort to cut Oozaru Gohan's tail.
nothing changes when the explosion covered the entire island and they weren't hiding in holes .. and Tien Shinhan assumes Chiaotzu is dead until he saw it

vegeta can still take hits from gohan ozaru
and goku was worse than vegeta and survived

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:29 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:11 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:56 pm
Zamasu and Goku black never fight seriously with trunks they let him escape on purpose several times ... Zamasu more than anything decides to show him his immortality
And Trunks Gets The SSJ "Rage" In Episode 61 overcoming the power of zamasu
I'm talking about when Goku and Vegeta went to help Trunks in the future for the first time. They just weren't killed because Mai saved them, so it is obvious that Zamasu was not holding back there, and yet SSJ2 Trunks overwhelmed him completely.

In the EP 63, the same thing happened, when Zamasu barely managed to keep up with a tired SSJ2 Trunks (again, not against SSJ Rage, just SSJ2 Trunks). And in this EP they just didn't kill Trunks because Goku and Vegeta interfered
he never overwhelms him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwy_zssIRw&t=312s

9:26 no, trunks stayed all the time in SSJ Rage just the aura is not visible all the time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN57hnsDNwE&t=1s

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:29 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:11 pm
dragonball0900 wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:45 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:35 pm

you are assuming that ... although clearly the explosion covered the entire island
I could say the same and say that goku and zamasu received most of the impact since the explosion is concentrated and is smaller in comparison

this attack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4uwyRFgUw
It's not assuming. Goku and everyone else literally agreed that they would have been killed if they didn't leave the battlefield. Tien had to use his Kikoho to save everyone. If people in other areas survived, then it's simply because they were far away. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for them not to be killed, yet Kami, Tien and the others were implied to die if they didn't hide inside the hole made by Tien's Kikoho.

As for Vegeta, you should remember that he was weakened terribly. At that point he had used his energy to create the fake moon for him to transform into Oozaru, then he had tanked a Spirit Bomb and was severely injured. When Gohan transformed into Oozaru, Vegeta said that if he was at full power he would have easily beat him. But instead in the state he was at the time, he was losing, and had to resort to cut Oozaru Gohan's tail.
nothing changes when the explosion covered the entire island and they weren't hiding in holes .. and Tien Shinhan assumes Chiaotzu is dead until he saw it

vegeta can still take hits from gohan ozaru
and goku was worse than vegeta and survived
Still, it doesn't make sense how could humans survive such attack when the far (I repeat, far) stronger Kami, Tien and the others could have been easily killed. The distance is the only explanation. Otherwise, it would be one of these rare instances when such bad writing happened in OG DB.

Vegeta is tough, it's obvious he could tank hits from Oozaru Gohan. And even Oozaru Gohan should be weaker since he was also injured from the previous fight. We also know that Goku is incredibly tough due to being a saiyan like Vegeta, which makes sense why he could have still survived despite been in a bad condition. The whole point of that scene was to show that Vegeta has gotten incredibly weak to the point that he could no longer kill any of them that easily.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by dragonball0900 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:31 pm

Cipher wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:17 pm
BWri wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:55 amYou'd hardly be able to figure out anyone's strength with that sort of thinking and it's just not how Dragon Ball works. In U6 alone Piccolo kept shattering everyone's expectations of himself which was a theme clearly shown in the text and via his performance in both mediums.
We found out fifteen years after the original series ended that neither base Goku nor, by extension, any of the humans, had ever eclipsed Namek-era Freeza despite many fan readings to the contrary.

I think there’s fair room to say that is, indeed, how Dragon Ball works.

Of course characters can eclipse past villains without comment, but I can’t think of many instances of a major pecking order change, which Piccolo surpassing No. 17 would be, being glossed over entirely.

It’s also somewhat hard for me to align a character quietly reaching that level in this single instance when the arc takes care to undo Boo’s ascension into that realm by its end. That also seems indicative to me of what’s on Toyotaro’s mind re: God-tier characters, and the instances of teamwork and technique focus in Super enough for me to have no issue with any presentational discrepancies in terms of Piccolo’s performance vs. No. 17’s. Especially since No. 17 and Gohan are equally trounced in their own when the coordinated teamwork element isn’t in play, despite Gohan being the undisputed top dog among good guys in the fight. Seems like a sign to read something other than raw strength into the slight, relative success of Gohan and Piccolo together in comparison.

Of course Piccolo has improved, but if the question we’re getting at here is “Does Toyotaro think Piccolo is SSG level?”, I would say “Probably not.”

Fans have a tendency to overestimate the intended level of characters based on incidental bits of action (look no further than this thread, in which we have people claiming anime Trunks is supposed to have been Blue-level based on taking or not taking certain hits, despite his awe over the form and later attainment of one closer to—but still not matching—it being plot points), and especially in this particular case we’re given other angles from which to read how the action plays out.

Re: U6:

In the manga, Piccolo is praised for his tenacity, but notably not his power. When Toyotaro wants to make a point of a power-up, you get dialogue like Piccolo and Gohan receive in the Moro arc.

When he wants to make a point of a significant change in level or pecking order, you get dialogue like Trunks receives vs. Goku, No. 17 and Gohan receive in the ToP arc, or Boo does on Namek, where surprise at ascension to a particular level is noted.

If Toyotaro wanted to toss a cheerful “You might even have been able to give me a hard time when I first fought Lord Beerus!” line from Goku in, he isn’t above it. A line from No. 17 about Piccolo seeming to have eclipsed him would have been even more seamless. Not only do we not get that line, we end on Boo’s noted power-down, as if to establish that it isn’t a level Toyotaro expects main cast members to reach willy-nilly, and especially, one would assume, silently.

I don’t know where people are getting the idea from that dialogue references have not been the series’—either of them but especially Super’s—bread and butter in terms of power-up and relative strength confirmation.

In the corner of Piccolo not being God-level, I see a wealth of authorial precedence in terms of how both series have tended to operate, while in the corner of Piccolo being God-level, I see a particular reading of a handful of action panels, logic the likes of which has historically led to silly conclusions like Trunks being intended to be even with Blue.
Base Goku’s case is different since the Base Saiyans never had any feats to show that they were stronger than Frieza. Piccolo does have feats to support him being above 17. Coordinating attacks with Gohan is enough to say that he was much closer to Gohan than Dyspo (who was not that far below Android 17 in the ToP) was to Toppo.

In the manga, I can’t find any situations in which a far weaker character was able to team up with a far stronger character when the gap was that big between the two allies. As I mentioned above, Dyspo couldn’t keep up with Toppo, despite the fact that the Pride Troopers (bar Jiren) all work as a team. We know 17 is close to Dyspo’s level, and since Piccolo kept up with Gohan (clearly above Toppo’s level), it’s enough proof that 17 was surpassed, along with what the manga gives us regards to 17 and 18 not being able to fight anymore. If 17 was still stronger than Piccolo, he should have kept fighting and not sitting there with 18. Saganbo trashing Gohan and 17 at first I see it nothing more than Saganbo just choosing to take them down first. But it’s clear that the fact that 17 was never used again in the story to fight alongside a tired CSSB Goku, Gohan and Piccolo against Moro 73 (similar to how he fought against Jiren with Goku, Frieza and Vegeta), and instead was used to only team up with his sister and get finger flicked shows again that he was intended by Toriyama and Toyotaro to be much closer to 18 than he was to the others. 18 also clearly got a power up (most likely from training with Krillin, since he directly said he had trained those 2 months), and both twins were literally shown to perform the same feats. Both scratched Moro and he complimented their powers. I seriously doubt Piccolo is below even 18 based on that feat, and I doubt even more that 18 is not at least close to 17 as well.

SSG level is no longer a relevant level by the time of the Moro Saga. Goku and Vegeta had already gotten so strong that even supporting characters could reach a far weaker god level and nothing would change regarding Goku and Vegeta’s positions. As I said before, Goku doing a statement like “wow, Piccolo, you are god level now!” wouldn’t help moving the story forward like other power up mentions like 17 in the ToP, Trunks in the Black Saga and Buu in the early Moro Saga did. One example I can think for now that a pecking order was changed is Krillin and Tien. Krillin surpassing Tien was never shown in the story, and was only confirmed by outside sources such as Toriyama. But it’s proof enough that a character doesn’t need a statement in the story that he/she have surpassed another. Much less Piccolo, who already showed feats supporting him being above both androids.

The anime is more inconsistent in team ups. It literally features Android 17 teaming up with SSBE Vegeta and SSBKKX20 Goku. I guess it’s no different with Trunks here. But in the manga, every team up coordinated attacks happened when the allies were not that far from each other in power and could keep up. Teams such as Goku and Vegeta, or the Pride Troopers, are examples of that.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:50 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:29 pm s EP they just didn't kill Trunks because Goku and Vegeta interfered
he never overwhelms him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwy_zssIRw&t=312s
So you just straight up ignored Zamasu failing to land a single hit on Trunks (who was pummeling and beating him) and highlighted only the point that shows his immortality (which is not even relevant because we are talking about power levels)...

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:29 pm 9:26 no, trunks stayed all the time in SSJ Rage just the aura is not visible all the time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN57hnsDNwE&t=1s
The aura shows that he was no longer using SSJ Rage.


His hair was also different (when he uses SSJ Rage, his hair is more spiky)


But even if you assume that this was SSJ Rage facing Zamasu, Trunks admits that he barely had any stamina left and that he could only use one last attack (which was a suicide attack), and yet Zamasu was also unable to land blows on him. Again, he is not consistently shown to be at the level of Goku, Vegeta, Black or Trunks himself after the new transformation

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by FrioPolar » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 pm

ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:35 pm
dragonball0900 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:21 pm The anime is the most inconsistent with this stuff. A far weaker character can survive a blast meant to kill a far stronger character. We see what happens with Trunks. The fact that a mere SSJ2 Trunks that was far weaker than even SSJ3 Goku (unlike in the manga when he was as strong as SSJ3) could even survive a blast that also knocked out SSB Goku shows how terrible the anime is with its power scaling.

Zamasu is a different case since not only he was inmortal, but he was also stated to be more powerful than his present self.
You guys are way to analytical with this. There's multiple examples in all of dragon ball where a weaker character survives attacks from a far stronger one.

It's a non issue.
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is Blue Level. Not only for surviving Black's Kamehameha but also because Trunks gave him a fight.

Trunks reached Blue Level for doing nothing, just like Zamasu.

Image
Image

That is a fact. The episode makes it very clear.

Bonus:

Base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Vegeta's attacks make him laugh and then Base Black sends him flying with a kick.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta.
Last edited by FrioPolar on Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:25 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:50 pm So you just straight up ignored Zamasu failing to land a single hit on Trunks (who was pummeling and beating him) and highlighted only the point that shows his immortality (which is not even relevant because we are talking about power levels)...


He managed to immobilize goku ssb and trunks I don't know what else you want?
he just It allows gets hit him because he can't die
TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:50 pm The aura shows that he was no longer using SSJ Rage.

His hair was also different (when he uses SSJ Rage, his hair is more spiky)


But even if you assume that this was SSJ Rage facing Zamasu, Trunks admits that he barely had any stamina left and that he could only use one last attack (which was a suicide attack), and yet Zamasu was also unable to land blows on him. Again, he is not consistently shown to be at the level of Goku, Vegeta, Black or Trunks himself after the new transformation
Episode 63
the aura is not visible all the time and the hair stays the same.
trunks is still able to fight black who is superior to zamasu
Image

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:30 pm

FrioPolar wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:35 pm
dragonball0900 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:21 pm The anime is the most inconsistent with this stuff. A far weaker character can survive a blast meant to kill a far stronger character. We see what happens with Trunks. The fact that a mere SSJ2 Trunks that was far weaker than even SSJ3 Goku (unlike in the manga when he was as strong as SSJ3) could even survive a blast that also knocked out SSB Goku shows how terrible the anime is with its power scaling.

Zamasu is a different case since not only he was inmortal, but he was also stated to be more powerful than his present self.
You guys are way to analytical with this. There's multiple examples in all of dragon ball where a weaker character survives attacks from a far stronger one.

It's a non issue.
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is Blue Level. Not only for surviving Black's Kamehameha but also because Trunks gave him a fight.

Trunks reached Blue Level for doing nothing, just like Zamasu.

Image
Image

That is a fact. The episode makes it very clear.

Bonus:

Base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Vegeta's attacks make him laugh and then Base Black sends him flying with a kick.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta.
hit someone distracted ....
Image

zamasu also hits vegeta god in the manga

goku black base had had the zenkai at that time in the anime
Image
same as in the manga goku black ssj could beat vegeta ssb
Last edited by Tai Lung on Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:56 pm

Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:25 pm Episode 63
the aura is not visible all the time and the hair stays the same.
trunks is still able to fight black who is superior to zamasu
Image
This is DURING the fight against Black dude. I'm referring to the fight between Trunks and Zamasu after Trunks used all of his power to attack Black. That Trunks barely had any stamina left and Zamasu was unable to do anything.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:20 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:56 pm
Tai Lung wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:25 pm Episode 63
the aura is not visible all the time and the hair stays the same.
trunks is still able to fight black who is superior to zamasu
Image
This is DURING the fight against Black dude. I'm referring to the fight between Trunks and Zamasu after Trunks used all of his power to attack Black. That Trunks barely had any stamina left and Zamasu was unable to do anything.
again that may vary ...
gohan defeat cell but was tired and with a broken arm he did not loss the transformation ... there is no proof that trunks lost it because he was still able to fight

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:48 pm

FrioPolar wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:35 pm
dragonball0900 wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:21 pm The anime is the most inconsistent with this stuff. A far weaker character can survive a blast meant to kill a far stronger character. We see what happens with Trunks. The fact that a mere SSJ2 Trunks that was far weaker than even SSJ3 Goku (unlike in the manga when he was as strong as SSJ3) could even survive a blast that also knocked out SSB Goku shows how terrible the anime is with its power scaling.

Zamasu is a different case since not only he was inmortal, but he was also stated to be more powerful than his present self.
You guys are way to analytical with this. There's multiple examples in all of dragon ball where a weaker character survives attacks from a far stronger one.

It's a non issue.
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is Blue Level. Not only for surviving Black's Kamehameha but also because Trunks gave him a fight.

Trunks reached Blue Level for doing nothing, just like Zamasu.

Image
Image

That is a fact. The episode makes it very clear.

Bonus:

Base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Vegeta's attacks make him laugh and then Base Black sends him flying with a kick.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta.
Landing some lucky hits doesn't make you on par with someone stronger.

We know Blue Vegeta was holding back based on their brief fight once Black turns Rose.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by FrioPolar » Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:06 am

ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:48 pm
FrioPolar wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 pm
ZombieVito wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:35 pm
You guys are way to analytical with this. There's multiple examples in all of dragon ball where a weaker character survives attacks from a far stronger one.

It's a non issue.
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is Blue Level. Not only for surviving Black's Kamehameha but also because Trunks gave him a fight.

Trunks reached Blue Level for doing nothing, just like Zamasu.

Image
Image

That is a fact. The episode makes it very clear.

Bonus:

Base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Vegeta's attacks make him laugh and then Base Black sends him flying with a kick.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta.
Landing some lucky hits doesn't make you on par with someone stronger.

We know Blue Vegeta was holding back based on their brief fight once Black turns Rose.
Lucky hits...

Image

You are trying to justify the unjustifiable.

And when is it said that Vegeta was holding back?

Why would Vegeta lower his power so much so Base Black can send him flying and come out unscathed from his attacks?

That doesn't make any sense.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta and he's on the level of Rosé Black. Trunks got stronger for doing nothing, just like Zamasu.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by BWri » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:24 pm

Cipher wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:17 pm
BWri wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:55 amYou'd hardly be able to figure out anyone's strength with that sort of thinking and it's just not how Dragon Ball works. In U6 alone Piccolo kept shattering everyone's expectations of himself which was a theme clearly shown in the text and via his performance in both mediums.
We found out fifteen years after the original series ended that neither base Goku nor, by extension, any of the humans, had ever eclipsed Namek-era Freeza despite many fan readings to the contrary.

I think there’s fair room to say that is, indeed, how Dragon Ball works.
I'm not sure how these two ideas connect. Base Saiyans never really changed from how they worked in the Cell saga. That's why I never bought into any of the Base Saiyans are stronger than Frieza/Piccolo etc. Are you referring to base Saiyan combat feats?
Of course characters can eclipse past villains without comment, but I can’t think of many instances of a major pecking order change, which Piccolo surpassing No. 17 would be, being glossed over entirely.
It's not really a major pecking order change. These are two characters that weren't that different in power even as of the ToP. As far as ranking, Piccolo is literally just behind #17 in terms of power since it goes Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, Gohan >= #17, Piccolo, 18, humans. No one cares who surpasses who between these 2 unless you're a fan of either character. It's not like they're contending with MUI or SSBE or even FPSSB so no one is really invested other than Piccolo and 17 fans.

Piccolo even asks #17 what type of training he's been doing. I can understand if others don't see it this way, but to me this indicates that it's a level that Piccolo thinks he can reach if he improved his training. It could just show that he's flabbergasted about 17's power, but in hindsight it seems to be the former.
It’s also somewhat hard for me to align a character quietly reaching that level in this single instance when the arc takes care to undo Boo’s ascension into that realm by its end.
If we just take things at face value, Piccolo reaches this level as early as the U6 arc as: SSJ Goku/Vegeta (U6) >> Frost >= Piccolo > 3rd form Frost >= Base Goku and Vegeta after 3 years training post RoF >> Base Goku and Vegeta pre-3 years training *you could say that the statement made in the anime about not being able to get much stronger is true but it opens up a whole other can of worms when it comes to character limits* >= RoF Final Form Frieza >> First Suppression Frieza >> SSJ Gohan > Tagoma > Piccolo >> Base Gohan.

I don't think Gohan in RoF is anywhere close to his Cell saga self, I just don't think he was anywhere near his Buu saga peak either. SSJ Gohan in RoF being somewhere stronger than he was at start of the Buu arc makes the most sense, because he did get a Z-sword training powerup prior to Old Kai unlocking his potential. Using that Gohan as a comparison, it's obvious that Piccolo becomes a top tier Buu arc fighter as early as his fight with Frost. And he gains an exponential amount of power from U6 to the ToP. Anime wise, Piccolo absolutely dwarfs his U6 self by the time of the ToP while in the manga, there's a high likelihood that he's greatly surpassed Frost who going all out at full power briefly struggled with an enemy that a heavily supressed Piccolo did.
That also seems indicative to me of what’s on Toyotaro’s mind re: God-tier characters, and the instances of teamwork and technique focus in Super enough for me to have no issue with any presentational discrepancies in terms of Piccolo’s performance vs. No. 17’s. Especially since No. 17 and Gohan are equally trounced in their own when the coordinated teamwork element isn’t in play, despite Gohan being the undisputed top dog among good guys in the fight. Seems like a sign to read something other than raw strength into the slight, relative success of Gohan and Piccolo together in comparison.
There's no other evidence of this happening though, even when it's 5 on 1 vs. Saganbo. The closest thing I'll grant you was on an unskilled Kale when her power was drastically waning during the ToP, but the Saganbo fight was far removed from a scenario like that. There are no other instances team up amps in the series, none from Toyotaro. As a matter of fact we have a scenario that proves what you're saying is untrue with Dyspo and Toppo vs. Vegeta.
Of course Piccolo has improved, but if the question we’re getting at here is “Does Toyotaro think Piccolo is SSG level?”, I would say “Probably not.”
Another point being, that god level is a constantly moving measuring stick. A lot of people don't understand that. Because Goku and Vegeta continue to improve, these levels are constantly changing arc to arc, so much that I'd say Piccolo has easily surpassed SSG from BoG. The level of SSJ3 that Goku was using on #17 to recruit him likely surpassed that as well ... unless all of Goku and Vegeta's power strictly comes from improving their God forms and not their mortal forms to which the story does not make that distinction.
Fans have a tendency to overestimate the intended level of characters based on incidental bits of action (look no further than this thread, in which we have people claiming anime Trunks is supposed to have been Blue-level based on taking or not taking certain hits, despite his awe over the form and later attainment of one closer to—but still not matching—it being plot points), and especially in this particular case we’re given other angles from which to read how the action plays out.
Nah, you're ignoring a lot to reach the conclusion you've reached. I see what you're saying and yes, many of us do take single action scenes and extrapolate too heavily from those, but you've gone in the opposite direction. Toyotaro has given us tons of proof, of feats, of statements, of buildup to show us that he wants Piccolo in the same conversation as Gohan and #17. He also wants #18 there, but hasn't provided much buildup for that one. He can handwave it at any time by directly stating or more explicitly implying that she's been training, since there's the precedent already with #17.

There is legitimately a story thread of Piccolo's growth from RoF onwards if you use both anime and manga, and from U6 onwards if you use the manga exclusively. Your mileage simply may vary on if you believe Piccolo can get this strong or not. This being DBS where #17 and Frieza exists, and with Piccolo's previous track record of massive strength increases especially when training with others, I can easily buy into what Toyotaro is obviously selling.
In the corner of Piccolo not being God-level, I see a wealth of authorial precedence in terms of how both series have tended to operate, while in the corner of Piccolo being God-level, I see a particular reading of a handful of action panels, logic the likes of which has historically led to silly conclusions like Trunks being intended to be even with Blue.
I just find it equally as silly to assume that the series has added new tag team mechanics in place of an obvious increase in power that the main character directly references. Don't get me wrong, the tag team stuff is there, but it's used alongside the obvious power increases, not in place of them.

Another point to consider is that Piccolo himself, outside of Goku and maybe Vegeta, likely has the most action scenes out of all the other characters during the Moro arc (an arc where every other relevant U7 fighting character got a lot of fight scenes). Him and Vegeta might even be neck in neck in this regard. So, Toyotaro took a particular interest in showing off Piccolo's growth as a fighter and just plain ol' showing off Piccolo for whatever reason. He got more focus than you may realize.
Big fan of the characters of Dragon Ball, all of them, especially formerly prominent sub-characters. -__-

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Tai Lung
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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:06 pm

FrioPolar wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 12:06 am
ZombieVito wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 11:48 pm
FrioPolar wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:17 pm

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is Blue Level. Not only for surviving Black's Kamehameha but also because Trunks gave him a fight.

Trunks reached Blue Level for doing nothing, just like Zamasu.

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That is a fact. The episode makes it very clear.

Bonus:

Base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

Vegeta's attacks make him laugh and then Base Black sends him flying with a kick.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta.
Landing some lucky hits doesn't make you on par with someone stronger.

We know Blue Vegeta was holding back based on their brief fight once Black turns Rose.
Lucky hits...

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You are trying to justify the unjustifiable.

And when is it said that Vegeta was holding back?

Why would Vegeta lower his power so much so Base Black can send him flying and come out unscathed from his attacks?

That doesn't make any sense.

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stronger than Blue Vegeta and he's on the level of Rosé Black. Trunks got stronger for doing nothing, just like Zamasu.
It is a surprising blow ... because black was fighting with goku ssj blue, however when trunks intervenes, he lowers his level and trunks surprises him with an outburst of anger ... and beerus it takes a long time in react to the attacks if that has already happened
example
vegeta rage vs Beerus

that has already happened in super anime, manga and movie
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and vegeta ssj2 is not stronger than gohan sns or gotenks ssj3 who fought previously with him
It is justifiable yes, the 3 versions clarify that this is possible as long as it is "surprise"

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by BootyCheeksJohnson » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:28 pm

Of course. He adsorbed Kami so that would make him new God now.
We need a Steve Simmons retranslation of the manga.

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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by pepd » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:16 pm

BWri wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:24 pm
Fans have a tendency to overestimate the intended level of characters based on incidental bits of action (look no further than this thread, in which we have people claiming anime Trunks is supposed to have been Blue-level based on taking or not taking certain hits, despite his awe over the form and later attainment of one closer to—but still not matching—it being plot points), and especially in this particular case we’re given other angles from which to read how the action plays out.
Nah, you're ignoring a lot to reach the conclusion you've reached. I see what you're saying and yes, many of us do take single action scenes and extrapolate too heavily from those, but you've gone in the opposite direction. Toyotaro has given us tons of proof, of feats, of statements, of buildup to show us that he wants Piccolo in the same conversation as Gohan and #17. He also wants #18 there, but hasn't provided much buildup for that one. He can handwave it at any time by directly stating or more explicitly implying that she's been training, since there's the precedent already with #17.

There is legitimately a story thread of Piccolo's growth from RoF onwards if you use both anime and manga, and from U6 onwards if you use the manga exclusively. Your mileage simply may vary on if you believe Piccolo can get this strong or not. This being DBS where #17 and Frieza exists, and with Piccolo's previous track record of massive strength increases especially when training with others, I can easily buy into what Toyotaro is obviously selling.
Quite the opposite, in RoF, U6 and ToP they reinforce what was established in DB, that Piccolo has been left behind. N17 and Freeza are explicitly established to have important grows because they have huge initial power and had never trained; again, the opposite of Piccolo, whose initial power was much lower and has always trained, and whose big and relevant power increases come from their fusion with Neil and Kami, not from regular training and generic lines about power increase that everyone has, but end up being irrelevant, that is what most resembles all these "proof".
Tai Lung wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:06 pm
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Re: is piccolo god level in the manga?

Post by Tai Lung » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:35 pm

pepd wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:16 pm
BWri wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:24 pm
Fans have a tendency to overestimate the intended level of characters based on incidental bits of action (look no further than this thread, in which we have people claiming anime Trunks is supposed to have been Blue-level based on taking or not taking certain hits, despite his awe over the form and later attainment of one closer to—but still not matching—it being plot points), and especially in this particular case we’re given other angles from which to read how the action plays out.
Nah, you're ignoring a lot to reach the conclusion you've reached. I see what you're saying and yes, many of us do take single action scenes and extrapolate too heavily from those, but you've gone in the opposite direction. Toyotaro has given us tons of proof, of feats, of statements, of buildup to show us that he wants Piccolo in the same conversation as Gohan and #17. He also wants #18 there, but hasn't provided much buildup for that one. He can handwave it at any time by directly stating or more explicitly implying that she's been training, since there's the precedent already with #17.

There is legitimately a story thread of Piccolo's growth from RoF onwards if you use both anime and manga, and from U6 onwards if you use the manga exclusively. Your mileage simply may vary on if you believe Piccolo can get this strong or not. This being DBS where #17 and Frieza exists, and with Piccolo's previous track record of massive strength increases especially when training with others, I can easily buy into what Toyotaro is obviously selling.
Quite the opposite, in RoF, U6 and ToP they reinforce what was established in DB, that Piccolo has been left behind. N17 and Freeza are explicitly established to have important grows because they have huge initial power and had never trained; again, the opposite of Piccolo, whose initial power was much lower and has always trained, and whose big and relevant power increases come from their fusion with Neil and Kami, not from regular training and generic lines about power increase that everyone has, but end up being irrelevant, that is what most resembles all these "proof".
Tai Lung wrote: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:06 pm
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exactly your point?

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