Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

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Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:17 pm

With the vigorous debates last year and this year about the strength of side characters in the Moro arc I was wondering how you all stack certain fighters against Super Saiyan God Goku from his fight with Beerus in Battle of Gods. Do you all think that SSG from that arc is still a relevant amount of power in the manga? Or have most characters in the story far surpassed it as of the Moro arc? Please specify if you're talking about the anime or manga as the scaling is vastly different.

RoF:
Final Form Frieza
Base Vegeta

U6 Arc:
Final Form Frost
SSJ Cabba
Magetta

ToP:
Kale
SSJ2 Caulifla
Kefla
Ultimate Gohan

Moro Arc:
#17
#18
Ultimate Gohan
Piccolo
Saganbo
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:41 pm

BWri wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:17 pm ToP:
Kale
Kefla
Ultimate Gohan

Moro Arc:
#17
Ultimate Gohan
Saganbo
I would say these are the only characters who surpassed BoG SSG in the manga, though I'm not as confident about 17.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:51 pm

BWri wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:17 pm RoF:
Final Form Frieza: it's not clear what the hell they were going for but they sure backtracked it. As seen later in the series, no in every media.
Base Vegeta: same as above.

U6 Arc:
Final Form Frost: anime yes - manga no.
SSJ Cabba: anime yes - manga no.
Magetta: anime yes - manga no.

ToP:
Kale: manga yes, anime maybe.
SSJ2 Caulifla: no. The anime had already retconned everything and base Goku is just base Goku.
Kefla: yes.
Ultimate Gohan: yes.

Moro Arc:
#17: he capped at SS3 prior to the Moro arc. Who knows? maybe he's grown much stronger.
#18: I'd say no.
Ultimate Gohan: yes
Piccolo: there's little to go with, one lost fight, probably yes.
Saganbo: yes

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Thani » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:13 pm

I'm basically taking the SSG of BoG as the average level of power a Super Saiyan God would possess. The form gets stronger over time, but overall, it's level of power has been pretty consistent, so...
Manga wrote:RoF: It was an absolute mess as far as power scaling goes, but if we go purely by the manga then...
Final Form Frieza - No.
Base Vegeta - Also no, he can't be stronger than his own SSG in Base, since there's no such thing as "god power absorbed in normal".

U6 Arc:
Final Form Frost - Definitely not. He's strong enough to challenge SSj Goku for a little while, but is no match overall. So weaker than Perfect Cell.
SSJ Cabba - He's actually as strong as SSj Vegeta, despite being just now unlocked the form. At the very best, he's as strong as Perfect Cell, just like Vegeta in SSj.
Magetta - It matched Vegeta blow to blow but was much more resistant. Same level, really. It's actually surprising that Frost was considered the best fighter.

ToP:
Kale - Absolutely superior to SSG at her peak, since it floored Golden Freeza and broke through Goku's guard.
SSJ2 Caulifla - Obviously weaker since she's just a SSj2.
Kefla - Should be at the bare minimum a SSB level character, since she had the raw power of Kale.
Ultimate Gohan - Same level as Kefla, who he tied with, so stronger than SSG.

Moro Arc:
#17 - No indication he got stronger by much. So maybe as strong as SSG.
#18 - By all means she shouldn't be nearly as strong as 17, since she doesn't fight literal Cell Jrs for years. Still, same as 17 I guess...
Ultimate Gohan - Supposedly much much stronger than in the ToP, but of course Toyo didn't bother to actually showcase it, but like before, stronger than SSG.
Piccolo - At minimum as strong, since he performed evenly with Gohan.
Saganbo - Stronger than a normal SSB since he wrecked Gohan, Piccolo, 17 and 18. Hard to pin down, but weaker than CSSB Goku after his training with Merus. So much stronger than SSG.
To me the anime scaling eventually backed down to be closer to the manga's own, which is infinitely better in terms of how stronger the main cast got. But I'll give honorary mentions anyway:

ToP:
Kale - As strong as SSG, since her improved Berserk state was fighting more or less evenly with a tired SSG Goku.
Kefla - As as mutant SSj, her power initially stood at SSB, but then rivaled the Genki Dama from U7. At SSj2, she should actually give Jiren a challenge before losing, just like UI Sign, but with worse performance.
Ultimate Gohan - He forced Goku to go SSB when he got serious, but was still weaker than Golden Freeza both when they fought each other and when they double teamed Dyspo. So he's either at SSG level or is between SSG and SSB.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Grimlock » Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:21 pm

Thani wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:13 pm I'm basically taking the SSG of BoG as the average level of power a Super Saiyan God would possess. The form gets stronger over time, but overall, it's level of power has been pretty consistent, so...
That goes against the very nature/basic law of Dragon Ball: power level is not set in stone.

I doubt the original Super Saiyan God was at the same level Goku was in Movie 14. Their base forms' power must've been different. Otherwise the original Super Saiyan God should have had at least Super Saiyan too.
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by dragonball0900 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 4:50 pm

I'll be using the manga only in this, since the anime is more confusing and has the power scaling all over the place. Plus there's no anime Moro Saga yet.
BWri wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:17 pm RoF:
Final Form Frieza - Based on the manga, most likely not. But it's still unknown since RoF is so confusing.
Base Vegeta - Same as Frieza.

U6 Arc:
Final Form Frost - No. In the ToP, he was most likely stronger than Z SSJ tier, but was still around ToP SSJ tier at best.
SSJ Cabba - Same as Frost. He's still SSJ tier. Even if he had SSJ2 in the ToP like in the anime, it still wouldn't be enough.
Magetta - Around SSJ1 level like the two above. His gimmick is that he was very resistant, but that was only compared to SSJ1. I believe his resistance is still less than BoG SSG.

ToP:
Kale - She was shown in the ToP to be close to an off guard CSSB Goku, and even a holding back Golden Frieza was weaker than her. She surpasses BoG SSG for sure, and is not that far below ToP CSSB.
SSJ2 Caulifla - No. Even if she had SSJ2 in the manga, she still doesn't reach BoG SSG level.
Kefla - She was equal to Kale, so yes.
Ultimate Gohan - He was equal to Kefla, who was equal to Kale. All of them were not that far behind CSSB level, which means they far surpass BoG SSG level.

Moro Arc:
#17 - I will say he did, since he was stronger than his ToP self. ToP 17 was above SSJ3, but it's unknown by how much. It's possible he was indeed SSG tier or above though, otherwise he wouldn't have been chosen as a main and the winner of the ToP.
#18 - She was close to 17's level, so if 17 got to SSG level, then she did as well.
Ultimate Gohan - Far stronger than in the ToP, which means an obvious yes.
Piccolo - He was portrayed as stronger than both androids against Saganbo, and was able to team up with Gohan. So yes. He surpassed BoG SSG level.
Saganbo - Obviously. He stomped the previously four mentioned in their match with ease. A post Merus training CSSB Goku was required to dominate him.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:12 pm

Good answers, all. I was wondering how everyone felt since I've seen it mentioned quite a few times that SSG is still a huge benchmark even as of the Moro arc. While I think the difference between a Z era SSJ3 and SSG from Battle of Gods is huge, I think we're too many arcs removed from the initial arc where that level of power was relevant. A character at that level is completely outclassed against even Goku Black. Oh I should've added Black, Zamasu, and SSJ2 Trunks to the list.

New List
RoF:
Final Form Frieza
Base Vegeta

U6 Arc:
Final Form Frost
SSJ Cabba
Magetta

FT Arc:
SSJ Black
Zamasu (specify which version)
SSJ2 Trunks
SSJ3 Goku

Pre-ToP:
SSJ3 Goku
Android 17

ToP:
Kale
SSJ2 Caulifla
Kefla
Ultimate Gohan

Moro Arc:
#17
#18
Ultimate Gohan
Piccolo
Saganbo
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Thani » Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:44 pm

The thing is that SSG really IS a huge benchmark in power, even the BoG one, despite how messy the anime became. Nowadays it's pretty outdated, which is a damn shame, but it's that divisor of waters between "mortal" and "godlike" that separates characters in Super. Obviously I refer to the SSG portrayed in the movie. The transformation itself is massively powerful, but it's the mark the form set in the movie that matters - like Grimlock said, Raditz with SSG wouldn't really be anywhere near SSG Goku in BoG.

So adding to the new list:

FT Arc:
SSJ Black - The standard Super Saiyan from the manga, right? Then initially no, he was far below SSG at that point. When his Super Saiyan actually surpassed SSG, it transformed straight into Rosé, but there was a few moments before the migration sticked where it was indeed stronger than SSB Vegeta.
Zamasu (specify which version) - I think both Zamasu's are weaker than SSG, they're just immortal. The anime one, however, appears a slightly better fighter, while the manga one relies more on his divine magicks.
SSJ2 Trunks - Obviously weaker, in both mediums. His mutant SSj2 would make him more or less a very powerful SSj3 for the time, but that's it.
SSJ3 Goku - Goku was actually pressured by Trunks a little in the manga. Either way, in both mediums he's not BoG SSG level.

Pre-ToP:
SSJ3 Goku - Same as above, Goku actually got rusty, aka worse off, since the FT arc.
Android 17 - In the manga he's apparently stronger than rusty SSj3 Goku. In the anime, he could keep up with SSB Goku while both were holding back. So I'll break a leg and say he's pretty damn close to SSG in both mediums, if not stronger in the anime.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:02 pm

I agree with Thani's list above.

Above BoG SSG, I'd say:
- Golden Freeza
- Manga Hit only at full power, although this might not even be true, maybe only his time skip works on SSG but without it he might as well still be below SSG.
- Anime base Black. He did tank SSB Vegeta, so at that time his base power could've been above SSG, or just an outlier.
- Black Rosé
- SSR Trunks
- Merged Zamasu
- SSG Vegeta
- Toppo
- Jiren
- manga Kale
- Kefla
- Anime Saonel and Pirina.
- Anime Dyspo
- Anime 17
- Anime Aniraza
- Gohan
- Ikari Broly
- Daikaioshin before capturing Moro
- Moro with his magic back (talking about pure strenght because Old Moro can defeat SSG with magic)
- Saganbo
- maybe Moro arc 17
- maybe Moro arc Piccolo

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:54 pm

In the anime at least, I think only Kale, Kefla, and 17 are that strong.
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:01 pm

Moro Arc Majin Boo is in a pretty safe spot above SSGod.

I would argue that Bergamo, Obuni, Ribrianne, Maji-Kayo and maybe even Damom in the anime might be around that level, at least on terms of special characteristics. They can give trouble to SSB level characters as long as they don’t figure out their respective weaknesses.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:02 pm *snip*
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by SSJgogeto » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:13 pm

RoF:
Final Form Frieza - yes
Base Vegeta - no, but Beyond God Vegeta - yes.

U6 Arc:
Final Form Frost - no
SSJ Cabba - no
Magetta - no

ToP:
Kale - no
SSJ2 Caulifla - no
Kefla - maybe
Ultimate Gohan - yes

Moro Arc:
#17 - yes
#18 - no
Ultimate Gohan - yes
Piccolo - probably
Saganbo - yes

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Koitsukai » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:25 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:01 pm Moro Arc Majin Boo is in a pretty safe spot above SSGod.

I would argue that Bergamo, Obuni, Ribrianne, Maji-Kayo and maybe even Damom in the anime might be around that level, at least on terms of special characteristics. They can give trouble to SSB level characters as long as they don’t figure out their respective weaknesses.
Koitsukai wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:02 pm *snip*
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:04 pm

SSJgogeto wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:13 pm ToP:
Kale - no
Why not Kale? Even in base her speed impressed Frieza.
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by DestructoDisc » Fri Apr 16, 2021 7:38 pm

BWri wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:04 pm
SSJgogeto wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:13 pm ToP:
Kale - no
Why not Kale? Even in base her speed impressed Frieza.
Even weirder is that for KEFLA he says "maybe".

Only Caulifla in the manga is weaker than SSJG. Every other female mentioned in the thread have surpassed that level, ESPECIALLY Kefla.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by SSJgogeto » Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:49 pm

My bad, I was talking about the anime (except for Moro arc, of course).

And I put "maybe" in Kefla because I don't know how strong is tired Goku from ToP in his SS God form.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:33 pm

Kale easily bypasses SSB Goku’s kamehameha in her Legendary Super Saiyan form in the anime.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Thani » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:06 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:33 pm Kale easily bypasses SSB Goku’s kamehameha in her Legendary Super Saiyan form in the anime.
To be fair, she then proceeded to only get even with Goku's SSG, while in a controled (if not stronger) version of her Legendary Super Saiyan form.

So I think the first feat may be either an outlier or another case of Goku holding back his power.

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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by BWri » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:46 am

Thani wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:06 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:33 pm Kale easily bypasses SSB Goku’s kamehameha in her Legendary Super Saiyan form in the anime.
To be fair, she then proceeded to only get even with Goku's SSG, while in a controled (if not stronger) version of her Legendary Super Saiyan form.

So I think the first feat may be either an outlier or another case of Goku holding back his power.
Yeah, Goku is in no way a reliable measuring stick until the very end. He's sandbagging through most of the tournament.
SSJgogeto wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 4:49 pm My bad, I was talking about the anime (except for Moro arc, of course).

And I put "maybe" in Kefla because I don't know how strong is tired Goku from ToP in his SS God form.
That's fair. Kefla does get reactions from other characters though that put over her strength and is compared to the Spirit Bomb Goku intended to use on Jiren.
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Re: Have the following fighters surpassed SSG Goku from BoG?

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:07 am

Thani wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:06 pm
Hugo Boss wrote: Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:33 pm Kale easily bypasses SSB Goku’s kamehameha in her Legendary Super Saiyan form in the anime.
To be fair, she then proceeded to only get even with Goku's SSG, while in a controled (if not stronger) version of her Legendary Super Saiyan form.

So I think the first feat may be either an outlier or another case of Goku holding back his power.
That was her SS2 form, wasn’t it? Her LSS form was actually her strongest and able to catch Jiren’s attention.

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