Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

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Krillin1994
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Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Krillin1994 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:17 pm

I never really see any comment on Whis being the one to give Frieza his life back. Obviously a big shocking part was that Goku had promised to revive Frieza with the dragonballs to everyone elses disdain. We see lasting frustration from Vegeta about this in the Broly film.

But they avoided that with Whis haphazardly intervening in that denied that moment from materialising which would've had more impact for the future dyamic of Goku and Frieza.

I know it was on Beerus' urging, but do you think reviving people from death goes against the code of neutrality of angels on mortal affairs. I guess we can argue Whis has done that before with his rewinds but since the rewind negates the action having ever occurred then one can argue he hasn't had lasting intervention. Whilst now he has revived Frieza to be able to wreak havoc so any impact from that has eschewed neutrality.

Next is that by Whis having this power does it further undercut tension. like he has a limitation to his rewind ability. But say Whis and Beerus are on the scene. Goku gets killed. Beerus just says revive him Whis and Whis does so. He didn't really need to rewind Gowasu's death. Beerus could've just said bring him back. Then Gowasu would be less confused than them just erasing his apprentice.

Finally what do you think the limitations are on this power of his? could he revive multiple people at once? could he revive further like planets and entire populations. Could Vados have just brought back the U6 human race if Champa wanted. Could they revive someone erased by Zeno or is erasure different to standard death?

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Thani » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:45 pm

I'm going with just my understanding, so let's go:
Krillin1994 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:17 pmI know it was on Beerus' urging, but do you think reviving people from death goes against the code of neutrality of angels on mortal affairs. I guess we can argue Whis has done that before with his rewinds but since the rewind negates the action having ever occurred then one can argue he hasn't had lasting intervention. Whilst now he has revived Frieza to be able to wreak havoc so any impact from that has eschewed neutrality.
Angels are neutral beings, but they still follow the orders of their Gods of Destruction. They're their retainers, masters and servants all at once. If Beerus ordered Whis to do so, then it's Whis' duty to comply. Besides, it was a fitting reward.
Krillin1994 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:17 pmNext is that by Whis having this power does it further undercut tension. like he has a limitation to his rewind ability. But say Whis and Beerus are on the scene. Goku gets killed. Beerus just says revive him Whis and Whis does so. He didn't really need to rewind Gowasu's death. Beerus could've just said bring him back. Then Gowasu would be less confused than them just erasing his apprentice.
You are correct, Beerus can do that if he so pleases. Why he hasn't done with Gowasu is probably because Toyotaro and Toriyama haven't came up with such power at that time.
Krillin1994 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:17 pmFinally what do you think the limitations are on this power of his? could he revive multiple people at once? could he revive further like planets and entire populations. Could Vados have just brought back the U6 human race if Champa wanted. Could they revive someone erased by Zeno or is erasure different to standard death?
Since they needed the Super Dragon Balls to do so, there must be a limit to the angels resurrective powers. They also can't bring back people killed by demons, as per Macarita's words. And since they at least require the soul of the individual for the revival to occur, as shown with Freeza, then erasure by either Zen'Oh or a God of Destruction (both methods destroying both body and soul) should make it impossible for the angel to resurrect the victim.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by batistabus » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:21 pm

Krillin1994 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:17 pm I know it was on Beerus' urging, but do you think reviving people from death goes against the code of neutrality of angels on mortal affairs. I guess we can argue Whis has done that before with his rewinds but since the rewind negates the action having ever occurred then one can argue he hasn't had lasting intervention. Whilst now he has revived Frieza to be able to wreak havoc so any impact from that has eschewed neutrality.
You say yourself that Whis did it on Beerus' command. That's all he needs to abide the Angel neutrality rules. Whis must be neutral, but Beerus can act however he wishes, and the Angel does what the God of Destruction commands.

The do-over is another way to skirt the rules. It's not as if Whis rewinds time and resolves the issue himself. He simply gives the humans another chance.
Next is that by Whis having this power does it further undercut tension. like he has a limitation to his rewind ability. But say Whis and Beerus are on the scene. Goku gets killed. Beerus just says revive him Whis and Whis does so. He didn't really need to rewind Gowasu's death. Beerus could've just said bring him back. Then Gowasu would be less confused than them just erasing his apprentice.
The Elder Kaioshin revived Goku. If Beerus wished it, we have every reason to believe it could be done. Would Beerus request that? At this point...possibly. Still, the presence of Whis and Beerus seems to affect many fan's enjoyment of Super. Here's the question: can Dragon Ball be enjoyable with no stakes whatsoever? I think it can, and at times, it is at its best when the stakes are the lowest.

(Whis doesn't use the do-over in the Future Trunks arc of the manga.)

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Krillin1994 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:45 pm

batistabus wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:21 pm
Krillin1994 wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:17 pm I know it was on Beerus' urging, but do you think reviving people from death goes against the code of neutrality of angels on mortal affairs. I guess we can argue Whis has done that before with his rewinds but since the rewind negates the action having ever occurred then one can argue he hasn't had lasting intervention. Whilst now he has revived Frieza to be able to wreak havoc so any impact from that has eschewed neutrality.
You say yourself that Whis did it on Beerus' command. That's all he needs to abide the Angel neutrality rules. Whis must be neutral, but Beerus can act however he wishes, and the Angel does what the God of Destruction commands.

The do-over is another way to skirt the rules. It's not as if Whis rewinds time and resolves the issue himself. He simply gives the humans another chance.
Next is that by Whis having this power does it further undercut tension. like he has a limitation to his rewind ability. But say Whis and Beerus are on the scene. Goku gets killed. Beerus just says revive him Whis and Whis does so. He didn't really need to rewind Gowasu's death. Beerus could've just said bring him back. Then Gowasu would be less confused than them just erasing his apprentice.
The Elder Kaioshin revived Goku. If Beerus wished it, we have every reason to believe it could be done. Would Beerus request that? At this point...possibly. Still, the presence of Whis and Beerus seems to affect many fan's enjoyment of Super. Here's the question: can Dragon Ball be enjoyable with no stakes whatsoever? I think it can, and at times, it is at its best when the stakes are the lowest.

(Whis doesn't use the do-over in the Future Trunks arc of the manga.)
But I mean I thought they still could only act on behalf of the GoD whilst maintaining their lack of true interferece. Like I guess Beerus couldn't ask Whis to fight somebody. But the interference angle then wouldn't allow Merus to arrest criminals for the galactic patrol etc.

Also Elder Kaioshin is a bit different in that he did give up his life for it. He didn't have the power to just revive Goku even though Kais are creational. I'm not saying it as a detractor of stakes really as I can agree that dragonball still can be enjoyable without the stakes, the tournament arcs have some of my fave fights.

My main gripe was more the missing out on the subsequent development of Goku actually being the one to keep his word and revive Frieza. Even just before they do their final assault on Jiren you have the two of them discussing Goku's promise to use the dragonballs to revive him. I just feel it would've been more meaningful and impactful for Goku to do that vs Whis being all "hohohoho you're alive Beerus said you did well"

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Skar » Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:51 pm

It came as a surprise but I didn't mind it. If the dragons can resurrect people, I think it makes sense a higher cosmic being is also capable of it. I believe it has the same restrictions as Shenron and Porunga so Angels can only revive those who still have their soul in Other World. Super Shenron and his creator might be the closest to a omnipotent being in DB since he can grant any wish (as far as we know) and even resurrect anything that has been completely erased including entire universes.

I do agree it might've had more impact if Goku had to gather the DBs after and wish back Freeza rather than Whis resurrecting him on the spot. I guess that was an opportunity to reveal this ability.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by theherodjl » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:26 am

The Angels have been OP since day one so why shouldn't Whis be able to revive people? The Angels are the closest thing to cosmic entities in DB and such beings are often among the most overpowered plot devices in fiction. DB's own little spin on it by making the cosmic entity be the "friend" of the main characters is a little funny though.
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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Jack Bz » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:40 am

I think you made some good points, besides the neutrality thing as it's always been consistent that Whis can follow Beerus' orders. But maybe there was a missed opportunity for it to be Goku that wished Freeza back, e.g it would make the conflict with Goku and Granolah more legitimate.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Hugo Boss » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:59 am

Not in the least, it’s a divine being doing divine stuff. And he does so accordingly to the will of his Hakaishin.

The limits of this ability seem to be unclear, but my guess is that he only can revive mortals that weren’t erased from existence from other deities or natural causes. His father, for example, can revive angels as mortals and he admittedly did so before the natural erasure of Merus kicked in. So, he probably can only revive what he personally erased.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by precita » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:01 pm

My only problem with this is letting Freeza loose back in the universe to do whatever he wants. And that still hasn't been addressed to this very day.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:58 pm

Maybe it would be better if Goku himself used the DBs to resurrect Freeza, but in the end I don't think it lessened the impact because Freeza's return is directly related to Goku's actions. It was he who had the idea to bring Freeza from hell to fight in the tournament and it was he who made the promise to revive him if U7 won. Ironically, this decision saved them (since Freeza played a big role in U7's victory) and at the same time it gave him the opportunity to reign over the universe again (indirectly resulting in the death and enslavement of countless people). It's a double edged sword. I like the ideia
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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by WittyUsername » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:37 pm

Angels seem to be able to do pretty much anything the story requires, which is no doubt the reason why the Galactic Patrol arc decide to establish that they’re supposed to be “neutral.”

I’d argue the fact that Whis was allowed to reverse time to prevent Earth’s destruction kind of breaks the idea the idea that these guys are supposed to be neutral, but it’s obvious that rule was written into the story to try and maintain some form of tension.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by pepd » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:09 am

About its use with Freeza, I'm fine with it. The impact was in the promise to revive him, after that, we knew it was going to happen and I don't think it would have added much; while having Beerus revive him shows his personality and relationship with F, and Wis having that ability reinforces their OPness and neutrality.

On the ability itself, I guess the possibility can be problematic, but it will depend on how they handle the neutrality, and there is already the Time Rewind ability. Also note that Freeza had his body.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Apr 18, 2021 6:43 am

Whis has been credited with the ability to "fix things" almost from the beginning (even before we knew he was specifically an Angel), so framing this as one extra thing he can "fix" seems pretty much in keeping, really.

It's also worth noting that, whatever his promises, Goku couldn't have used the Dragon Balls to revive Freeza - at least, not Earth's (which is what he implies he'll use) - since Shenron has already granted that specific wish before. So it's probably for the best that we had the Angelic shortcut on this.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Krillin1994 » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:21 am

I think the repeat wish was a limitation on Kami’s version of the Dragonballs. Dendes have not shown such limitations as far as I’m aware.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:28 am

Krillin1994 wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:21 am I think the repeat wish was a limitation on Kami’s version of the Dragonballs. Dendes have not shown such limitations as far as I’m aware.
Goku wasn't revived at the end of the Cell Game because he'd already been revived by Shenron - Shenron specifically says that he can't bring him back because he's done it before, so I think that particular limitation still holds.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Peach » Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:55 am

No, but his Rewind ability does.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Cipher » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:59 pm

I'm fine with it. Whis can do anything but only so long as he can find personal justification for doing so, which with his inscrutable morals and the restraints on the angel position is a perfectly acceptable, suitably weird Dragon Ball-esque limitation on abilities that might otherwise quickly resolve stories.

He can do anything, but often won't because he simply can't find a reason or justification to, and that's well enough built up by the story that you know to not expect anything from him.

In terms of its impact on the Goku-Freeza dynamic, I think that's fine too. It gets around a practical limitation in the story with regards to the Earth Dragon Balls' ability to revive Freeza a second time (and saves both us and Goku the world's most awkward trip to Namek), while still tying the resurrection to Goku as he's the one who promised it to get Freeza onto the team.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:05 am

No.. It does not. I don’t really understand the question. I don’t see how that would, or could, possible annoy me...

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Krillin1994 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:12 am

GodVegetto91 wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:05 am No.. It does not. I don’t really understand the question. I don’t see how that would, or could, possible annoy me...
I didn't realise it was confusing. Well the purpose of this thread was in 3 parts the third of which was the main problem I had. Though maybe annoy wasn't the right phrasing. It generally didn't sit right with me.

1. further undermining tension by giving him the ability to revive. But we know that tension in DB has faded when there are now 4 sets of dragonballs and Whis can also rewind.

2. Going against Angel like neutrality. Can argue he has barriered earthlings during RoF and rewound (but can justify that as a grey areas as the events not happening due to no timeline impact). Any subsequent destruction Frieza does to universe 7 which could impact universe level negatively is then on Whis to a degree. Protecting living people is a lesser intervention than bringing people back from the dead

3. My main issue which could've tied into the tension the current arc is that it undermines Goku's promise and stole his thunder. Whis just insta reviving him. VS Goku then actually getting the dragonballs to the protests of his friends and doing so. Which then to Granolah gives more justification to his Saiyan grudge.

Literally the dialogue just before they do their final charge on Jiren is all about how Goku still plans to make good on his promise.

(mentally just picturing a scenario where Frieza returns to hell, and Goku visits him in the cocoon once more and back to baba's where the dragon gets summoned and reviving him). Would serve to make the Goku/Frieza dynamic more interesting as you'd have frieza wondering whether Goku would actually follow through on it.

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Re: Does Whis' ability to revive Frieza annoy you

Post by Trouser » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:29 am

It does not annoy me, BUT... I'd rather it never existed (this and rewind time technique). Super already has zero stakes, zero tension and a few sets of magical stones that do whatever you ask them to do, so there is no need for techniques like that. They are maltreating the "zero-tension-corpse" of Super.
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