Vegeta not using IT and not mastering it due to Goku knowing it is bad

[TBMx]

Vegeta doing his own thing separate from Goku is not about ultimately making Vegeta stronger than Goku it’s about making the two characters distinct and being able to do different things with each character.

Also what people are missing in this thread about IT is Vegeta learned it quickly (and as I mentioned already) was not to get one over on Goku but to not make the Yadratians break their rule. Now from a narrative perspective like I said Toyo just wanted to give Vegeta a cool one off moment but from a character perspective Vegeta was doing something he didn’t have interest in (which he says earlier in the arc too) to not inconvenience the Yadratians. If anything that scene showed growth on Vegeta’s part. But instead people are fixated on Vegeta needing to use IT instead of the reason he learned it quickly in the first place (even if you could argue the rule itself was dumb which I don’t disagree with) .


Vegeta always just doing the same thing as Goku just after Goku gets old quick and in the end he is still behind Goku. It would have been the same thing with UI. Vegeta would get UI and in the next chapter Goku would have moved onto something else. That is how it always is.

So now UI May ultimately be stronger than Hakai but at least they can do different things with Goku & Vegeta and we don’t know how Vegeta’s Hakai is going be applied in the story.



Edit: Thani I agree I hated how Vegeta for SSBE in the manga too. A lot of fans hated the My Bulma/Cabba scene in the anime but I actually liked that moment much more.

I am certainly not saying every scene with Vegeta is well written or without problems. I also hated the no teacher line. But I think the argument that everything Vegeta does is wrong and every decision he makes is idiotic and regression and this is why he is always so behind Goku is just silly.

Vegeta's stated goal is actually to surpass Goku. Not merely to be different. A character who isn't trying to fulfill their stated goal and is instead doing something just for the audience's interest, is a bad character. EITHER have him say he doesn't care about being the best anymore, and just wants to be his own man, OR have him take the most efficient route within his capabilities. One or the other. IT was within his capabilities seeing how he pulled off a jump across the cosmos and learned to do it in 5 minutes.

Except EVERY TIME Vegeta does the same thing as Goku he doesn’t surpass him. Realizing something isn’t working for you and trying something else is the opposite of just being prideful

It just sounds like no matter what Vegeta does you will say it is bad because it is not UI.

Not true. And I don't know what manga you're reading.

When Vegeta did the same thing as Goku with the SSG, SSB, MSSB line, he was actually equal to Goku. Its only when they split off with UI Omen and SSBE that Goku became superior. Then the gap widened further as they did their separate training in the Moro arc, with Goku having a whole level above Vegeta.

Vegeta learning Hakai doesn't provide any answer to the increased strength, speed, accuracy and auto dodge of UI. So this is a case of being different to be different instead of being different in a way thats in line with his stated goal of surpassing Goku. Being different in a way that is in line with his goals is good. Being differerent just for the sake of it is Rian Johnson style "subvert expectations" bad.

[Kinokima]

Vegeta's stated goal is actually to surpass Goku. Not merely to be different. A character who isn't trying to fulfill their stated goal and is instead doing something just for the audience's interest, is a bad character. EITHER have him say he doesn't care about being the best anymore, and just wants to be his own man, OR have him take the most efficient route within his capabilities. One or the other. IT was within his capabilities seeing how he pulled off a jump across the cosmos and learned to do it in 5 minutes.

Except EVERY TIME Vegeta does the same thing as Goku he doesn’t surpass him. Realizing something isn’t working for you and trying something else is the opposite of just being prideful

It just sounds like no matter what Vegeta does you will say it is bad because it is not UI.

Not true. And I don't know what manga you're reading.

When Vegeta did the same thing as Goku with the SSG, SSB, MSSB line, he was actually equal to Goku. Its only when they split off with UI Omen and SSBE that Goku became superior. Then the gap widened further as they did their separate training in the Moro arc, with Goku having a whole level above Vegeta.

Vegeta learning Hakai doesn't provide any answer to the increased strength, speed, accuracy and auto dodge of UI. So this is a case of being different to be different instead of being different in a way thats in line with his stated goal of surpassing Goku. Being different in a way that is in line with his goals is good. Being differerent just for the sake of it is Rian Johnson style "subvert expectations" bad.

The only time Vegeta and Goku were equal was when they got Blue and we were shown they got the form at the same time that was the ONLY reason they were “Equal” . Vegeta will easily be equal to Goku again if they want him to be. But when it matters Goku will surpass Vegeta again to beat the main villain.

[TBMx]

Except EVERY TIME Vegeta does the same thing as Goku he doesn’t surpass him. Realizing something isn’t working for you and trying something else is the opposite of just being prideful

It just sounds like no matter what Vegeta does you will say it is bad because it is not UI.

Not true. And I don't know what manga you're reading.

When Vegeta did the same thing as Goku with the SSG, SSB, MSSB line, he was actually equal to Goku. Its only when they split off with UI Omen and SSBE that Goku became superior. Then the gap widened further as they did their separate training in the Moro arc, with Goku having a whole level above Vegeta.

Vegeta learning Hakai doesn't provide any answer to the increased strength, speed, accuracy and auto dodge of UI. So this is a case of being different to be different instead of being different in a way thats in line with his stated goal of surpassing Goku. Being different in a way that is in line with his goals is good. Being differerent just for the sake of it is Rian Johnson style "subvert expectations" bad.

The only time Vegeta and Goku were equal was when they got Blue and we were shown they got the form at the same time that was the ONLY reason they were “Equal” . Vegeta will easily be equal to Goku again if they want him to be. But when it matters Goku will surpass Vegeta again to beat the main villain.

They were equal at the SSG level, SSB, level and MSSB level. Then from that point on when they split, Goku became superior.

You say it doesn't matter to you if Vegeta surpasses Goku. As long as he's different.

The problem is it matters to Vegeta. By his own words. So by what metric has Vegeta surpassed Goku?

MUI Goku has better strength, speed, accuracy, skill and timing. All the components of a fight. Vegeta can Hakai better ...maybe. Goku Hakai'd half a god's face and body. Vegeta's just Hakai'd logs so far. Whether he's even better in that regard remains to be seen.

And as for IT. Again, how does not learning it help his stated goal of surpassing Goku? How does he expect to use FSF against faster opponents? Are opponents who are faster an inconceivable possibility to this Vegeta? The way he's been portrayed it wouldn't surprise me.

Again, if he said he didn't care about being the best and just wanted to be a MGTOW, I'd have no complaint. Yet thats not where he is.

[Kinokima]

Not true. And I don't know what manga you're reading.

When Vegeta did the same thing as Goku with the SSG, SSB, MSSB line, he was actually equal to Goku. Its only when they split off with UI Omen and SSBE that Goku became superior. Then the gap widened further as they did their separate training in the Moro arc, with Goku having a whole level above Vegeta.

Vegeta learning Hakai doesn't provide any answer to the increased strength, speed, accuracy and auto dodge of UI. So this is a case of being different to be different instead of being different in a way thats in line with his stated goal of surpassing Goku. Being different in a way that is in line with his goals is good. Being differerent just for the sake of it is Rian Johnson style "subvert expectations" bad.

The only time Vegeta and Goku were equal was when they got Blue and we were shown they got the form at the same time that was the ONLY reason they were “Equal” . Vegeta will easily be equal to Goku again if they want him to be. But when it matters Goku will surpass Vegeta again to beat the main villain.

They were equal at the SSG level, SSB, level and MSSB level. Then from that point on when they split, Goku became superior.

You say it doesn't matter to you if Vegeta surpasses Goku. As long as he's different.

The problem is it matters to Vegeta. By his own words. So by what metric has Vegeta surpassed Goku?

MUI Goku has better strength, speed, accuracy, skill and timing. All the components of a fight. Vegeta can Hakai better ...maybe. Goku Hakai'd half a god's face and body. Vegeta's just Hakai'd logs so far. Whether he's even better in that regard remains to be seen.

And as for IT. Again, how does not learning it help his stated goal of surpassing Goku? How does he expect to use FSF against faster opponents? Are opponents who are faster an inconceivable possibility to this Vegeta? The way he's been portrayed it wouldn't surprise me.

Again, if he said he didn't care about being the best and just wanted to be a MGTOW, I'd have no complaint. Yet thats not where he is.

They weren’t equal with God because Goku got God before Vegeta. When Vegeta got it it was largely irrelevant once they introduced Blue and that became the main form.

And so Vegeta gets to do the same thing as Goku and be “equal” to him for a short time until Goku get a new form or move or whatever else that will always put him above Vegeta in the end.

Beerus literally says Hakai can surpass UI. While again I know Vegeta is not going to actually surpass Goku for more than maybe 1/2 a chapter. I have no reason to doubt Beerus word that it is possible for Hakai to surpass UI (retcon or not) . So yes if the narrative wants Vegeta to be “equal” to Goku they can just as easily do it with Hakai as with UI. The path you think Vegeta needs to take to be stronger is irrelevant because the story itself is now saying this is not the case.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Let's keep it that way. Let's not homogenize the cast by taking away their unique things and giving it to other characters.

[Krillin1994]

Let's keep it that way. Let's not homogenize the cast by taking away their unique things and giving it to other characters.

I mean Beerus and Whis giving Vegeta and Goku their respective marks hopefully shows that Toyotaro is embracing the divergence of the paths of these two.

Whilst I don’t necessarily think that will see unique transformations in future (yes it’s probably against Vegeta getting UI)

But despite that divergence I don’t think it necessarily means unique forms for the two. Obviously Vegeta is not getting UI, but this new UI information basically means that since Goku can master it in base, Vegeta and Goku can still get some other transformation then Goku just uses UI in that form.

[GodVegetto91]

The only time Vegeta and Goku were equal was when they got Blue and we were shown they got the form at the same time that was the ONLY reason they were “Equal” . Vegeta will easily be equal to Goku again if they want him to be. But when it matters Goku will surpass Vegeta again to beat the main villain.

They were equal at the SSG level, SSB, level and MSSB level. Then from that point on when they split, Goku became superior.

You say it doesn't matter to you if Vegeta surpasses Goku. As long as he's different.

The problem is it matters to Vegeta. By his own words. So by what metric has Vegeta surpassed Goku?

MUI Goku has better strength, speed, accuracy, skill and timing. All the components of a fight. Vegeta can Hakai better ...maybe. Goku Hakai'd half a god's face and body. Vegeta's just Hakai'd logs so far. Whether he's even better in that regard remains to be seen.

And as for IT. Again, how does not learning it help his stated goal of surpassing Goku? How does he expect to use FSF against faster opponents? Are opponents who are faster an inconceivable possibility to this Vegeta? The way he's been portrayed it wouldn't surprise me.

Again, if he said he didn't care about being the best and just wanted to be a MGTOW, I'd have no complaint. Yet thats not where he is.

They weren’t equal with God because Goku got God before Vegeta. When Vegeta got it it was largely irrelevant once they introduced Blue and that became the main form.

And so Vegeta gets to do the same thing as Goku and be “equal” to him for a short time until Goku get a new form or move or whatever else that will always put him above Vegeta in the end.

Beerus literally says Hakai can surpass UI. While again I know Vegeta is not going to actually surpass Goku for more than maybe 1/2 a chapter. I have no reason to doubt Beerus word that it is possible for Hakai to surpass UI (retcon or not) . So yes if the narrative wants Vegeta to be “equal” to Goku they can just as easily do it with Hakai as with UI. The path you think Vegeta needs to take to be stronger is irrelevant because the story itself is now saying this is not the case.

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[BWri]

Let's keep it that way. Let's not homogenize the cast by taking away their unique things and giving it to other characters.

I mean, Goku's whole moveset is taken from other characters. Anything taken from Goku doesn't even count because Goku didn't invent it. Tien should've patented his moveset decades ago. He'd be filthy rich.

[Mr Baggins]

Back when I first joined this forum, this made me have a minor meltdown in the main manga thread which I'm not proud of (apologies again Marlowe, I was going through some stuff at the time, I guess), but even after simmering down considerably, I still see the whole scene of Vegeta abandoning IT as facepalm-inducing.

Just saw this post.

Trust me, no hard feelings at all here. I too was going through some major personal stuff at the time, and I think it showed through my own posts then, but the silver lining is that the whole past year really allowed me to reflect on who I am as a person and strive to do better. I'm still not quite sure why my original account was deleted, and as much as I'd love to have it back, I guess I'm content with the idea that that may never happen. I'll always stick to self-improvement either way.

I totally understand why people feel the manga's approach of having Vegeta refuse to learn IT feels like an attempt to maintain the "status quo", but I'd still say this is overall in keeping with Vegeta's character. I'd actually go further and argue that it serves as commentary on Vegeta's tendency to keep his pride intact despite his own growth throughout Super; he's still an arrogant bastard who wants to follow his own path, inconveniences be damned. Vegeta is (to this day) a flawed character, but one arguably central ethos of Dragon Ball is that it's all about flawed characters betraying practicalities in favor of their own vices. Goku and Vegeta are practically identical in that regard, and even some of the more innocent characters (i.e. Gohan) went through similar situations when given their own spotlight in the original manga.

An interesting takeaway is that Vegeta's humiliations, at their core, aren't caused by Goku -- they're always caused by Vegeta and his mindset, just as Goku's slip-ups likewise originate from his own. These guys might develop, but they never truly learn from their core issues. I think it's par for the course when it comes to distinguishing DB from its modern contemporaries.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta is (to this day) a flawed character, but one arguably central ethos of Dragon Ball is that it's all about flawed characters betraying practicalities in favor of their own vices.

That's...a really good point, to be honest. Practicality isn't exactly the first thing on Goku and Vegeta's list of priorities when it comes to learning techniques.

Anyway, I have already expressed my dissatisfaction here with this particular point of his training, I genuinely believe that it would have been a very interesting addition to his arsenal, since unlike Spirit Fission, IT is a less situational technique that Vegeta could make more consistent use as a reminder of what he inherited from Yardrat training.

But a point worth mentioning is that Vegeta didn’t have time to learn IT at all. He spent months polishing his spirit and learning a specific technique to face Moro. He basically pulled the Instant Transmission on his second attempt, with no specific training or prior preparation for it, so it makes sense that it was not something he could have reliably used in the fight against Moro. I believe that eventually he could have decided to keep it if he continued his Spirit Control training after Moro, but he is on another path in terms of power now

[LoganForkHands73]

Just saw this post.

Trust me, no hard feelings at all here. I too was going through some major personal stuff at the time, and I think it showed through my own posts then, but the silver lining is that the whole past year really allowed me to reflect on who I am as a person and strive to do better. I'm still not quite sure why my original account was deleted, and as much as I'd love to have it back, I guess I'm content with the idea that that may never happen. I'll always stick to self-improvement either way.

I totally understand why people feel the manga's approach of having Vegeta refuse to learn IT feels like an attempt to maintain the "status quo", but I'd still say this is overall in keeping with Vegeta's character. I'd actually go further and argue that it serves as commentary on Vegeta's tendency to keep his pride intact despite his own growth throughout Super; he's still an arrogant bastard who wants to follow his own path, inconveniences be damned. Vegeta is (to this day) a flawed character, but one arguably central ethos of Dragon Ball is that it's all about flawed characters betraying practicalities in favor of their own vices. Goku and Vegeta are practically identical in that regard, and even some of the more innocent characters (i.e. Gohan) went through similar situations when given their own spotlight in the original manga.

An interesting takeaway is that Vegeta's humiliations, at their core, aren't caused by Goku -- they're always caused by Vegeta and his mindset, just as Goku's slip-ups likewise originate from his own. These guys might develop, but they never truly learn from their core issues. I think it's par for the course when it comes to distinguishing DB from its modern contemporaries.

Hey man, great to see you again. It's all good, this year has changed everyone in some ways. I've thought about maybe chatting with the mods about understanding what happened with your old account, I greatly miss seeing that Super Saiyan God Goku avatar in the manga thread. I'll try to keep my nose out.

I honestly agree with most of that. Although Toriyama admits he doesn't deal with psychology in his work, Vegeta is an enduring character because his growth isn't some linear path of him becoming a good boy after learning all his lessons. The Moro arc saw him make the greatest strides in development since either the Buu or Beerus arcs, but from the minute he came back to settle the score with Moro, he was still gloating and bragging and wasting time as he's always keen to do. I think the latest chapters have been brilliant at showing Vegeta's alienation and aimlessness in finding a new sense of direction in life. While there's criticism against that in this thread, I personally think that's a huge strength -- he won't always be consistent in his goals because he doesn't really know them himself anymore. Does anyone? Goku's overall goals have never really changed, vague as they are, but Vegeta... he's just hanging around at this point and he knows it.

My personal preferred direction, which I'm glad the manga is following, would be to see him continue to find kinship in Beerus and drift away from Goku. If there's anyone else who understands the exact same insecurities about being left in the dust, it's him.

[Kinokima]

I still don’t feel Vegeta not continuing to learn IT is meant to be a flaw. Sure Vegeta can be very prideful and him wanting to find his own way to surpass Goku is at least partially based on pride.

But the IT was meant as a one off cool scene. Like I said he only did it that one time because it was against the Yadratian’s laws to take him to Earth themselves. But that law in itself was written in there to have an excuse for Vegeta do the move. If Toyo had not written in that random law then the Yadratians could easily have just taken Vegeta to Earth and we would never have seen Vegeta use IT at all.

Also for everyone who is saying Vegeta is just being prideful and doesn’t want to use the move. His response to Goku sounds more like a wink to the audience “worry not I have no intention of pilfering your signature move”. There is no mockery or arrogant statement in that line. It just sounds like Toyo is telling the audience this is a one off thing.

And for all the people who wanted Vegeta to use IT permanently there are just as many people I saw who want Goku to have things that are just his. And IT has been a Goku thing for well forever.

[LoganForkHands73]

I still don’t feel Vegeta not continuing to learn IT is meant to be a flaw. Sure Vegeta can be very prideful and him wanting to find his own way to surpass Goku is at least partially based on pride.

But the IT was meant as a one off cool scene. Like I said he only did it that one time because it was against the Yadratian’s laws to take him to Earth themselves. But that law in itself was written in there to have an excuse for Vegeta do the move. If Toyo had not written in that random law then the Yadratians could easily have just taken Vegeta to Earth and we would never have seen Vegeta use IT at all.

Also for everyone who is saying Vegeta is just being prideful and doesn’t want to use the move. His response to Goku sounds more like a wink to the audience “worry not I have no intention of pilfering your signature move”. There is no mockery or arrogant statement in that line. It just sounds like Toyo is telling the audience this is a one off thing.

And for all the people who wanted Vegeta to use IT permanently there are just as many people I saw who want Goku to have things that are just his. And IT has been a Goku thing for well forever.

I agree that that's likely the case, though Vegeta does seem generally smug in that scene. He says something along the lines of "Of course I did it, I'm more talented than you, Kakarrot". I think his pride was still talking there.

However, Vegeta and Goku have a great number of distinct things between them now. Vegeta has all his classic signature attacks, his Yardrat Spirit techniques, Super Saiyan Blue Evolved, his new Hakaishin training, etc. Goku has all his regular moves plus Ultra Instinct. Personally speaking, I just want to see some more visual switch-ups. If that just means seeing Goku and Vegeta teleport somewhere separately rather than Vegeta always having to awkwardly grab Goku's shoulder every time, that'll be welcomed.

But enough about IT, I wanna see Vegeta use the whole range of new techniques he learned on Yardrat to make up for it. I'm talkin' size alteration, cloning, illusion casting, the whole shebang.

[Kinokima]

I still don’t feel Vegeta not continuing to learn IT is meant to be a flaw. Sure Vegeta can be very prideful and him wanting to find his own way to surpass Goku is at least partially based on pride.

But the IT was meant as a one off cool scene. Like I said he only did it that one time because it was against the Yadratian’s laws to take him to Earth themselves. But that law in itself was written in there to have an excuse for Vegeta do the move. If Toyo had not written in that random law then the Yadratians could easily have just taken Vegeta to Earth and we would never have seen Vegeta use IT at all.

Also for everyone who is saying Vegeta is just being prideful and doesn’t want to use the move. His response to Goku sounds more like a wink to the audience “worry not I have no intention of pilfering your signature move”. There is no mockery or arrogant statement in that line. It just sounds like Toyo is telling the audience this is a one off thing.

And for all the people who wanted Vegeta to use IT permanently there are just as many people I saw who want Goku to have things that are just his. And IT has been a Goku thing for well forever.

I agree that that's likely the case, though Vegeta does seem generally smug in that scene. He says something along the lines of "Of course I did it, I'm more talented than you, Kakarrot". I think his pride was still talking there.

Actually he doesn’t say anything of the kind and even says he probably couldn’t pull it off again. He does brag in the typical Vegeta fashion but it’s just to say he has a better move of his own (which is of course debatable since we are likely never to see it used again but I hope I am wrong here)

[GodVegetto91]

Let's keep it that way. Let's not homogenize the cast by taking away their unique things and giving it to other characters.

“Homogenize”???!

Never heard of that word before!

[Zeru14]

Let's keep it that way. Let's not homogenize the cast by taking away their unique things and giving it to other characters.

I mean, Goku's whole moveset is taken from other characters. Anything taken from Goku doesn't even count because Goku didn't invent it. Tien should've patented his moveset decades ago. He'd be filthy rich.

Yeah that argument never made sense to me and I wish people would stop using it, when its pretty standard for people who've studied under the same master/school to use the same abilities. In Naruto/Baruto, One Piece, Black Clover we see it all the time. Ryu and Ken from Street Fighter are really good examples of this. As stated the majority of Goku's moveset he learned from studying under others, so when Vegeta stated he wont be using Instant Transmission because it "Kakarot's", that logic is flawed because he didn't invent it.

Toriyama has always limited other cast members to keep the status quo to keep Goku ahead and make him "special" and making the plot completely dependent on him, he doesn't know how or care to write a group story, none of the others ever drank the divine water, he waited to have them use weighted clothing until the Saiyan Saga(despite them knowing about for over four years), learn Kaioken, gravity train from 10 to 100+, have their potential unlocked(since the Grand Elder most likely kept his body after death this could be done) or the Old Kai could do it, use the Time Chamber, learn the fusion dance, or go to Yadrat to learn spiritual calmness to maximize their energy flow. Heck, Future Trunks could've gone through the God Ritual in the Zamasu Arc, since he was in a timeline where the number of pure hearted saiyans existed, but since no one but Goku and Vegeta is allowed to have that power, the story completely ignores that option.

[TBMx]

Told you so. UI is shown to be massively superior. Just like I said it would be, something that was, and is, easily forseeable. Vegeta achieved his goal if being different from Goku in and of itself was his goal. If his goal was being able to beat UI Goku, then he never stood a chance by learning Hakai and that was obvious from the start. And should have been obvious to him.

Vegeta getting destroyed by Gas's IT was easily forseeable.
If you don't develop answers to these things, you become victims of them. If Vegeta's fine being a victim cos he gets to be different than okay. Carry on .

[super michael]

Told you so. UI is shown to be massively superior. Just like I said it would be, something that was, and is, easily forseeable. Vegeta achieved his goal if being different from Goku in and of itself was his goal. If his goal was being able to beat UI Goku, then he never stood a chance by learning Hakai and that was obvious from the start. And should have been obvious to him.

Vegeta getting destroyed by Gas's IT was easily forseeable.
If you don't develop answers to these things, you become victims of them. If Vegeta's fine being a victim cos he gets to be different than okay. Carry on .

UI seems to have many advantages such as these below:

• Auto dodging

• Auto harden

• Avatar of himself

UE advantage is getting stronger everytime they get hit. Basically it is good for tanking.

UI seems better than UE in my opinion.

True Vegeta has no counter against UI user and IT user.