Vegeta not using IT and not mastering it due to Goku knowing it is bad

[super michael]

I mean really Vegeta learned from the Yardrat how to do IT, he even use IT from Yardrat to earth successful even though the distance is really far away. But just because Goku knows IT, that is the reason why Vegeta won't master and learn better how to use IT.

With IT Vegeta could use it with FSF or with Hakai. Vegeta could have used FSF on Moro gem on his head.

[Thani]

I mean really Vegeta learned from the Yardrat how to do IT, he even use IT from Yardrat to earth successful even though the distance is really far away. But just because Goku knows IT, that is the reason why Vegeta won't master and learn better how to use IT.

With IT Vegeta could use it with FSF or with Hakai. Vegeta could have used FSF on Moro gem on his head.

In universe Vegeta admitted he was pretty bad at IT, and that, but out of universe it's just Toriyama and Toyotaro wanting to maintain a certain status quo.

In fact, the idea that Vegeta ONLY learned Forces Spirit Fission is ridiculous, since it's an advanced technique.

[UpFromTheSkies]

It does seem very in character for Vegeta to want nothing to do with a technique that Goku uses. That's his rival and he doesn't want to get better by imitating him, he wants to make his own path.

[super michael]

I mean really Vegeta learned from the Yardrat how to do IT, he even use IT from Yardrat to earth successful even though the distance is really far away. But just because Goku knows IT, that is the reason why Vegeta won't master and learn better how to use IT.

With IT Vegeta could use it with FSF or with Hakai. Vegeta could have used FSF on Moro gem on his head.

In universe Vegeta admitted he was pretty bad at IT, and that, but out of universe it's just Toriyama and Toyotaro wanting to maintain a certain status quo.

In fact, the idea that Vegeta ONLY learned Forces Spirit Fission is ridiculous, since it's an advanced technique.

In universe Vegeta learned IT in less than a day, even though he didn't master it he successfully pull of IT from Yardrat to Earth. Vegeta took many months to successfully learn FSF, that didn't stop him from mastering that technique.

Out of universe you are 100% correct.

It does seem very in character for Vegeta to want nothing to do with a technique that Goku uses. That's his rival and he doesn't want to get better by imitating him, he wants to make his own path.

Vegeta didn't have any problem using Kienza which Krillin used against Nappa. Vegeta didn't have any problem gaining Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God like Goku. At one point Vegeta wanted to gain Ultra Instinct like Goku.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Vegeta didn't have any problem using Kienza which Krillin used against Nappa. Vegeta didn't have any problem gaining Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God like Goku. At one point Vegeta wanted to gain Ultra Instinct like Goku.

He might borrow an attack for a one off use, but he isn't going to use it regularly, it just wouldn't be in character for him. As for transformations, they're not really techniques but Saiyan forms, and he is a Saiyan.

[TBMx]

Vegeta's on this stupid Men Going Their Own Way schtick. So rather than be good, he'd rather be unique. Saiyans Going Their Own Way. SGTOW.

Don't worry about being effective. Only ego matters. Pride. Better to job than to imitate.

[LoganForkHands73]

Back when I first joined this forum, this made me have a minor meltdown in the main manga thread which I'm not proud of (apologies again Marlowe, I was going through some stuff at the time, I guess), but even after simmering down considerably, I still see the whole scene of Vegeta abandoning IT as facepalm-inducing. Whichever way you look at it, teleportation is an insanely useful technique to have in any arsenal. It's probably Goku's most practical technique, I mean, he can instantaneously move anywhere in the universe so long as he can detect a person's ki, as the name implies. Vegeta, supremely talented so-n-so he is, learns to get from Yardrat to Earth within a few minutes of instruction after mastering every other Spirit technique but arbitrarily decides he won't do it again even though he just showed he easily can. Vegeta always seems humiliated about having to grab hold of Goku's wrist or shoulder (no hand-holding!) whenever they have to teleport somewhere. Surely it makes more sense for Vegeta to understand that being able to do it solo will make him more independent from Goku?

Vegeta relentlessly trying to "go his own way" is all well and good, it's not exactly out-of-character, but it feels needlessly regressive for him to refuse to learn a useful move for no justifiable reason beyond "heh, I don't need anything you've got, Kakarot!" He's just making life more difficult for himself. By that logic, he might as well just abandon every other ki blast technique, every Super Saiyan form, since Goku did all of those first. While Vegeta has been angsting about wanting to find his own path in life, which is great, relatable stuff, he's always been reasonably pragmatic when it comes to combat. To me, it does feel like Toriyama and Toyotaro were clumsily trying to maintain a sense of status quo, as Thani said. Like Goku has to be the only one who can teleport, because that's how it's always been.

But whatever, it's no big deal, what's done is done. It would be nice if they tie this back into Vegeta's ongoing growth -- have him realise that failing to master IT was a bit of a detrimental decision in the long run. Goku will probably tease him over it, like "Oi Vegeta, you can still teleport, can't you? Heehee."

[TBMx]

Back when I first joined this forum, this made me have a minor meltdown in the main manga thread which I'm not proud of (apologies again Marlowe, I was going through some stuff at the time, I guess), but even after simmering down considerably, I still see the whole scene of Vegeta abandoning IT as facepalm-inducing. Whichever way you look at it, teleportation is an insanely useful technique to have in any arsenal. It's probably Goku's most practical technique, I mean, he can instantaneously move anywhere in the universe so long as he can detect a person's ki, as the name implies. Vegeta, supremely talented so-n-so he is, learns to get from Yardrat to Earth within a few minutes of instruction after mastering every other Spirit technique but arbitrarily decides he won't do it again even though he just showed he easily can. Vegeta always seems humiliated about having to grab hold of Goku's wrist or shoulder (no hand-holding!) whenever they have to teleport somewhere. Surely it makes more sense for Vegeta to understand that being able to do it solo will make him more independent from Goku?

Vegeta relentlessly trying to "go his own way" is all well and good, it's not exactly out-of-character, but it feels needlessly regressive for him to refuse to learn a useful move for no justifiable reason beyond "heh, I don't need anything you've got, Kakarot!" He's just making life more difficult for himself. By that logic, he might as well just abandon every other ki blast technique, every Super Saiyan form, since Goku did all of those first. While Vegeta has been angsting about wanting to find his own path in life, which is great, relatable stuff, he's always been reasonably pragmatic when it comes to combat. To me, it does feel like Toriyama and Toyotaro were clumsily trying to maintain a sense of status quo, as Thani said. Like Goku has to be the only one who can teleport, because that's how it's always been.

But whatever, it's no big deal, what's done is done. It would be nice if they tie this back into Vegeta's ongoing growth -- have him realise that failing to master IT was a bit of a detrimental decision in the long run. Goku will probably tease him over it, like "Oi Vegeta, you can still teleport, can't you? Heehee."

So when Vegeta inevitably, repeatedly remains Goku's inferior and he jobs, what are we supposed to feel after Vegeta makes decisions like that? Are we meant to laugh?

[Jack Bz]

I always thought it would have been much funnier for the manga to make us think Vegeta is going to teleport to earth, but then just teleports into the trash (as he did in the manga) and then opts to just have himself teleported by someone else as always.

[TBMx]

Whats even funnier is that Vegeta lost because he couldn't catch Moro in time. IT would have been real useful there.

Oh wait, he actually did get there before Moro finished eating and instead of killing him he asked what Moro was doing.



What a bum.

[Kinokima]

I always find it funny that people act if Vegeta copies Goku that he is going to somehow be equal or stronger than Goku because that worked in his favor before. No matter what decisions Vegeta makes he will always be behind Goku in the end because that is the status Quo the writers (whether it be Toyo, Toei or Toriyama) will always keep him at.

As for Instant Transmission it is obvious Toyo just wanted Vegeta to do it once to be cool but wants to keep it as Goku’s signature move


Vegeta is basically set out to lose no matter what he does. The series tries to pretend that is not the case but that is how he is treated in the narrative. I guarantee if he mastered IT it would make no difference to this status quo.

The only difference is having Goku and Vegeta follow different paths makes it more interesting for us because at least we are seeing something different from each character. And while I doubt Vegeta following his own path means he will finally beat a main villain (yeah right ) maybe he will be able to contribute in meaningful ways that are different from Goku.


Edit: Also Vegeta would not have had time to Master IT to have made a difference in the Moro fight. The point is he learned it to do it once to get back to Earth quickly and not make the Yadratians who had helped him break a rule of theirs.

[TBMx]

I always find it funny that people act if Vegeta copies Goku that he is going to somehow be equal or stronger than Goku because that worked in his favor before. No matter what decisions Vegeta makes he will always be behind Goku in the end because that is the status Quo the writers (whether it be Toyo, Toei or Toriyama) will always keep him at.

As for Instant Transmission it is obvious Toyo just wanted Vegeta to do it once to be cool but wants to keep it as Goku’s signature move


Vegeta is basically set out to lose no matter what he does. The series tries to pretend that is not the case but that is how he is treated in the narrative. I guarantee if he mastered IT it would make no difference to this status quo.

The only difference is having Goku and Vegeta follow different paths makes it more interesting for us because at least we are seeing something different from each character. And while I doubt Vegeta following his own path means he will finally beat a main villain (yeah right ) maybe he will be able to contribute in meaningful ways that are different from Goku.


Edit: Also Vegeta would not have had time to Master IT to have made a difference in the Moro fight. The point is he learned it to do it once to get back to Earth quickly and not make the Yadratians who had helped him break a rule of theirs.

No I disagree. There's definitely 2 Vegeta's in DBS. The Pre - Top Vegeta and post. Pre ToP, Vegeta was a good character. I can pinpoint the moment he became trash. It was the "I never had a mentor" speech. From that point on he became a total ignoramus. Who's every decision went contrary to his stated goal of surpassing Goku.

[Kinokima]

I always find it funny that people act if Vegeta copies Goku that he is going to somehow be equal or stronger than Goku because that worked in his favor before. No matter what decisions Vegeta makes he will always be behind Goku in the end because that is the status Quo the writers (whether it be Toyo, Toei or Toriyama) will always keep him at.

As for Instant Transmission it is obvious Toyo just wanted Vegeta to do it once to be cool but wants to keep it as Goku’s signature move


Vegeta is basically set out to lose no matter what he does. The series tries to pretend that is not the case but that is how he is treated in the narrative. I guarantee if he mastered IT it would make no difference to this status quo.

The only difference is having Goku and Vegeta follow different paths makes it more interesting for us because at least we are seeing something different from each character. And while I doubt Vegeta following his own path means he will finally beat a main villain (yeah right ) maybe he will be able to contribute in meaningful ways that are different from Goku.


Edit: Also Vegeta would not have had time to Master IT to have made a difference in the Moro fight. The point is he learned it to do it once to get back to Earth quickly and not make the Yadratians who had helped him break a rule of theirs.

No I disagree. There's definitely 2 Vegeta's in DBS. The Pre - Top Vegeta and post. Pre ToP, Vegeta was a good character. I can pinpoint the moment he became trash. It was the "I never had a mentor" speech. From that point on he became a total ignoramus. Who's every decision went contrary to his stated goal of surpassing Goku.

Every post of yours on here is about how awful Vegeta is. It is your opinion I get that but every post of yours comes off as extreme exaggeration to say how awful Vegeta is so it feels like trolling even if that is not what you are trying to do.

Criticism is fine but it should be constructive not let me point out how everything about this character is just bad & stupid. Again as my previous post is trying to imply Vegeta and what he accomplishes in the end is dictated by the narrative. Not saying Vegeta never makes the wrong choices because of course he does (and that doesn’t make a bad character) but even when he makes good choices he is not going to win because that is just not his role in the story.

In the last arc Vegeta had a move that directly countered Moro and that still wasn’t enough because it wasn’t his role to win. That’s what it comes down to in the end.

[TBMx]

I always find it funny that people act if Vegeta copies Goku that he is going to somehow be equal or stronger than Goku because that worked in his favor before. No matter what decisions Vegeta makes he will always be behind Goku in the end because that is the status Quo the writers (whether it be Toyo, Toei or Toriyama) will always keep him at.

As for Instant Transmission it is obvious Toyo just wanted Vegeta to do it once to be cool but wants to keep it as Goku’s signature move


Vegeta is basically set out to lose no matter what he does. The series tries to pretend that is not the case but that is how he is treated in the narrative. I guarantee if he mastered IT it would make no difference to this status quo.

The only difference is having Goku and Vegeta follow different paths makes it more interesting for us because at least we are seeing something different from each character. And while I doubt Vegeta following his own path means he will finally beat a main villain (yeah right ) maybe he will be able to contribute in meaningful ways that are different from Goku.


Edit: Also Vegeta would not have had time to Master IT to have made a difference in the Moro fight. The point is he learned it to do it once to get back to Earth quickly and not make the Yadratians who had helped him break a rule of theirs.

No I disagree. There's definitely 2 Vegeta's in DBS. The Pre - Top Vegeta and post. Pre ToP, Vegeta was a good character. I can pinpoint the moment he became trash. It was the "I never had a mentor" speech. From that point on he became a total ignoramus. Who's every decision went contrary to his stated goal of surpassing Goku.

Every post of yours on here is about how awful Vegeta is. It is your opinion I get that but every post of yours comes off as extreme exaggeration to say how awful Vegeta is so it feels like trolling even if that is not what you are trying to do.

Criticism is fine but it should be constructive not let me point out how everything about this character is just bad & stupid. Again as my previous post is trying to imply Vegeta and what he accomplishes in the end is dictated by the narrative. Not saying Vegeta never makes the wrong choices because of course he does but even when he makes good choices he not going to win because that is just not his role in the story.

In the last arc Vegeta had a move that directly countered Moro and that still wasn’t enough because it wasn’t his role to win. That’s what it comes down to in the end.

Get constructive fo what? I'm not writing this stuff. But if you want to know what I think should have happened, Vegeta should have gotten UI Omen from his 3 years of training for it since RoF and his Spirit Control training. Omen would have been achieved by learning to empty your mind. From there Goku and Vegeta would divert into opposing ideologies. Goku would calm his heart, leading to the white haired UI Mastered and Vegeta would correctly say that doesn't suit him, so learn Hakai and think of destruction
only as Beerus said. This would change his Omen form into come kind of new Hakai form.

Instead of what I'm going to suspect they will do. Have Vegeta waste the years with Whis, deny he ever had a mentor with Whis, be unable to even do Roshi style fake UI - Learn Spirit Control, only to forget about its principles and go back to raging mid battle, then go learn Hakai even though he's the kind of guy who asks permission from Jaco of all people to destroy someone, then Hakai a few rocks and logs, just say this somehow makes him rival MUI (thus cheapening MUI) and magically asspull some new Hakai form from that.

It would likely be a similar destination in the end, but a much more believable route that doesn't make Vegeta look like a bum.

And for all the reasons stated in this topic already he would have kept Instant Transmission, even if he wouldn't use it much. Hed be motivated to not want to hold Goku's hand all the time.

It's funny he's on this Men Going Their Own Way thing yet is happy to keep holding Goku's hand to go places.

Constructive enough for you?

[Thani]

I don't think they're such radically different characters, honestly. Vegeta merely came to a realisation in the ToP. My only problem with it is that it was sudden, not foreshadowed nor built up on. In the anime, at the least, there was an episode with Vegeta trying and failing to pull UI off, only to realise it doesn't fit him and abandon the idea of pursuing Goku and doing his own thing from now on.

To me, the worst part in the manga, is that Vegeta's realisation not only was sudden, but was accompanied by Blue Evolution and Toppo's defeat at the same time. Vegeta was given three wins at the same time, in character, power and victory in battle, for the pettiest reason possible - he saw Goku gaining a new form. It also illustrates the problem with the manga ToP, in that everything was so rushed one barely had time to appreciate the plot beats or show many of the actual fights - they had to compress three plot points in a single panel in order to reach the time limit. I shit you not:

Spoiler:

[TBMx]

So how does Vegeta expect to use FSF against opponents who are faster than him if he refuses Teleportation? Just take a chance and swing? Punch and hope? Or is FSF a one time only technique too? What isn't a one time only technique with him?

[Kinokima]

No I disagree. There's definitely 2 Vegeta's in DBS. The Pre - Top Vegeta and post. Pre ToP, Vegeta was a good character. I can pinpoint the moment he became trash. It was the "I never had a mentor" speech. From that point on he became a total ignoramus. Who's every decision went contrary to his stated goal of surpassing Goku.

Every post of yours on here is about how awful Vegeta is. It is your opinion I get that but every post of yours comes off as extreme exaggeration to say how awful Vegeta is so it feels like trolling even if that is not what you are trying to do.

Criticism is fine but it should be constructive not let me point out how everything about this character is just bad & stupid. Again as my previous post is trying to imply Vegeta and what he accomplishes in the end is dictated by the narrative. Not saying Vegeta never makes the wrong choices because of course he does but even when he makes good choices he not going to win because that is just not his role in the story.

In the last arc Vegeta had a move that directly countered Moro and that still wasn’t enough because it wasn’t his role to win. That’s what it comes down to in the end.

Get constructive fo what? I'm not writing this stuff. But if you want to know what I think should have happened, Vegeta should have gotten UI Omen from his 3 years of training for it since RoF and his Spirit Control training. Omen would have been achieved by learning to empty your mind. From there Goku and Vegeta would divert into opposing ideologies. Goku would calm his heart, leading to the white haired UI Mastered and Vegeta would correctly say that doesn't suit him, so learn Hakai and think of destruction
only as Beerus said. This would change his Omen form into come kind of new Hakai form.

Instead of what I'm going to suspect they will do. Have Vegeta waste the years with Whis, deny he ever had a mentor with Whis, be unable to even do Roshi style fake UI - Learn Spirit Control, only to forget about its principles and go back to raging mid battle, then go learn Hakai even though he's the kind of guy who asks permission from Jaco of all people to destroy someone, then Hakai a few rocks and logs, just say this somehow makes him rival MUI (thus cheapening MUI) and magically asspull some new Hakai form from that.

It would likely be a similar destination in the end, but a much more believable route that doesn't make Vegeta look like a bum.

And for all the reasons stated in this topic already he would have kept Instant Transmission, even if he wouldn't use it much. Hed be motivated to not want to hold Goku's hand all the time.

It's funny he's on this Men Going Their Own Way thing yet is happy to keep holding Goku's hand to go places.

Constructive enough for you?

Vegeta doing his own thing separate from Goku is not about ultimately making Vegeta stronger than Goku it’s about making the two characters distinct and being able to do different things with each character.

Also what people are missing in this thread about IT is Vegeta learned it quickly (and as I mentioned already) was not to get one over on Goku but to not make the Yadratians break their rule. Now from a narrative perspective like I said Toyo just wanted to give Vegeta a cool one off moment but from a character perspective Vegeta was doing something he didn’t have interest in (which he says earlier in the arc too) to not inconvenience the Yadratians. If anything that scene showed growth on Vegeta’s part. But instead people are fixated on Vegeta needing to use IT instead of the reason he learned it quickly in the first place (even if you could argue the rule itself was dumb which I don’t disagree with) .


Vegeta always just doing the same thing as Goku just after Goku gets old quick and in the end he is still behind Goku. It would have been the same thing with UI. Vegeta would get UI and in the next chapter Goku would have moved onto something else. That is how it always is.

So now UI May ultimately be stronger than Hakai but at least they can do different things with Goku & Vegeta and we don’t know how Vegeta’s Hakai is going be applied in the story.



Edit: Thani I agree I hated how Vegeta for SSBE in the manga too. A lot of fans hated the My Bulma/Cabba scene in the anime but I actually liked that moment much more.

I am certainly not saying every scene with Vegeta is well written or without problems. I also hated the no teacher line. But I think the argument that everything Vegeta does is wrong and every decision he makes is idiotic and regression and this is why he is always so behind Goku is just silly.

[Thani]

Edit: Thani I agree I hated how Vegeta for SSBE in the manga too. A lot of fans hated the My Bulma/Cabba scene in the anime but I actually liked that moment much more.

I am certainly not saying every scene with Vegeta is well written or without problems. I also hated the no teacher line. But I think the argument that everything Vegeta does is wrong and every decision he makes is idiotic and regression and this is why he is always so behind Goku is just silly.

Right, I also hated how that undermined Toppo as a fighter, who's supposed to be a God of Destruction in training, yet he never does anything unique at all in the arc and was eliminated as an afterthought. It was, to me, the worst moment of the arc, hands down.

[TBMx]

Every post of yours on here is about how awful Vegeta is. It is your opinion I get that but every post of yours comes off as extreme exaggeration to say how awful Vegeta is so it feels like trolling even if that is not what you are trying to do.

Criticism is fine but it should be constructive not let me point out how everything about this character is just bad & stupid. Again as my previous post is trying to imply Vegeta and what he accomplishes in the end is dictated by the narrative. Not saying Vegeta never makes the wrong choices because of course he does but even when he makes good choices he not going to win because that is just not his role in the story.

In the last arc Vegeta had a move that directly countered Moro and that still wasn’t enough because it wasn’t his role to win. That’s what it comes down to in the end.

Get constructive fo what? I'm not writing this stuff. But if you want to know what I think should have happened, Vegeta should have gotten UI Omen from his 3 years of training for it since RoF and his Spirit Control training. Omen would have been achieved by learning to empty your mind. From there Goku and Vegeta would divert into opposing ideologies. Goku would calm his heart, leading to the white haired UI Mastered and Vegeta would correctly say that doesn't suit him, so learn Hakai and think of destruction
only as Beerus said. This would change his Omen form into come kind of new Hakai form.

Instead of what I'm going to suspect they will do. Have Vegeta waste the years with Whis, deny he ever had a mentor with Whis, be unable to even do Roshi style fake UI - Learn Spirit Control, only to forget about its principles and go back to raging mid battle, then go learn Hakai even though he's the kind of guy who asks permission from Jaco of all people to destroy someone, then Hakai a few rocks and logs, just say this somehow makes him rival MUI (thus cheapening MUI) and magically asspull some new Hakai form from that.

It would likely be a similar destination in the end, but a much more believable route that doesn't make Vegeta look like a bum.

And for all the reasons stated in this topic already he would have kept Instant Transmission, even if he wouldn't use it much. Hed be motivated to not want to hold Goku's hand all the time.

It's funny he's on this Men Going Their Own Way thing yet is happy to keep holding Goku's hand to go places.

Constructive enough for you?

Vegeta doing his own thing separate from Goku is not about ultimately making Vegeta stronger than Goku it’s about making the two characters distinct and being able to do different things with each character.

Also what people are missing in this thread about IT is Vegeta learned it quickly (and as I mentioned already) was not to get one over on Goku but to not make the Yadratians break their rule. Now from a narrative perspective like I said Toyo just wanted to give Vegeta a cool one off moment but from a character perspective Vegeta was doing something he didn’t have interest in (which he says earlier in the arc too) to not inconvenience the Yadratians. If anything that scene showed growth on Vegeta’s part. But instead people are fixated on Vegeta needing to use IT instead of the reason he learned it quickly in the first place (even if you could argue the rule itself was dumb which I don’t disagree with) .


Vegeta always just doing the same thing as Goku just after Goku gets old quick and in the end he is still behind Goku. It would have been the same thing with UI. Vegeta would get UI and in the next chapter Goku would have moved onto something else. That is how it always is.

So now UI May ultimately be stronger than Hakai but at least they can do different things with Goku & Vegeta and we don’t know how Vegeta’s Hakai is going be applied in the story.



Edit: Thani I agree I hated how Vegeta for SSBE in the manga too. A lot of fans hated the My Bulma/Cabba scene in the anime but I actually liked that moment much more.

I am certainly not saying every scene with Vegeta is well written or without problems. I also hated the no teacher line. But I think the argument that everything Vegeta does is wrong and every decision he makes is idiotic and regression and this is why he is always so behind Goku is just silly.

Vegeta's stated goal is actually to surpass Goku. Not merely to be different. A character who isn't trying to fulfill their stated goal and is instead doing something just for the audience's interest, is a bad character. EITHER have him say he doesn't care about being the best anymore, and just wants to be his own man, OR have him take the most efficient route within his capabilities. One or the other. IT was within his capabilities seeing how he pulled off a jump across the cosmos and learned to do it in 5 minutes.

[Kinokima]

Get constructive fo what? I'm not writing this stuff. But if you want to know what I think should have happened, Vegeta should have gotten UI Omen from his 3 years of training for it since RoF and his Spirit Control training. Omen would have been achieved by learning to empty your mind. From there Goku and Vegeta would divert into opposing ideologies. Goku would calm his heart, leading to the white haired UI Mastered and Vegeta would correctly say that doesn't suit him, so learn Hakai and think of destruction
only as Beerus said. This would change his Omen form into come kind of new Hakai form.

Instead of what I'm going to suspect they will do. Have Vegeta waste the years with Whis, deny he ever had a mentor with Whis, be unable to even do Roshi style fake UI - Learn Spirit Control, only to forget about its principles and go back to raging mid battle, then go learn Hakai even though he's the kind of guy who asks permission from Jaco of all people to destroy someone, then Hakai a few rocks and logs, just say this somehow makes him rival MUI (thus cheapening MUI) and magically asspull some new Hakai form from that.

It would likely be a similar destination in the end, but a much more believable route that doesn't make Vegeta look like a bum.

And for all the reasons stated in this topic already he would have kept Instant Transmission, even if he wouldn't use it much. Hed be motivated to not want to hold Goku's hand all the time.

It's funny he's on this Men Going Their Own Way thing yet is happy to keep holding Goku's hand to go places.

Constructive enough for you?

Vegeta doing his own thing separate from Goku is not about ultimately making Vegeta stronger than Goku it’s about making the two characters distinct and being able to do different things with each character.

Also what people are missing in this thread about IT is Vegeta learned it quickly (and as I mentioned already) was not to get one over on Goku but to not make the Yadratians break their rule. Now from a narrative perspective like I said Toyo just wanted to give Vegeta a cool one off moment but from a character perspective Vegeta was doing something he didn’t have interest in (which he says earlier in the arc too) to not inconvenience the Yadratians. If anything that scene showed growth on Vegeta’s part. But instead people are fixated on Vegeta needing to use IT instead of the reason he learned it quickly in the first place (even if you could argue the rule itself was dumb which I don’t disagree with) .


Vegeta always just doing the same thing as Goku just after Goku gets old quick and in the end he is still behind Goku. It would have been the same thing with UI. Vegeta would get UI and in the next chapter Goku would have moved onto something else. That is how it always is.

So now UI May ultimately be stronger than Hakai but at least they can do different things with Goku & Vegeta and we don’t know how Vegeta’s Hakai is going be applied in the story.



Edit: Thani I agree I hated how Vegeta for SSBE in the manga too. A lot of fans hated the My Bulma/Cabba scene in the anime but I actually liked that moment much more.

I am certainly not saying every scene with Vegeta is well written or without problems. I also hated the no teacher line. But I think the argument that everything Vegeta does is wrong and every decision he makes is idiotic and regression and this is why he is always so behind Goku is just silly.

Vegeta's stated goal is actually to surpass Goku. Not merely to be different. A character who isn't trying to fulfill their stated goal and is instead doing something just for the audience's interest, is a bad character. EITHER have him say he doesn't care about being the best anymore, and just wants to be his own man, OR have him take the most efficient route within his capabilities. One or the other. IT was within his capabilities seeing how he pulled off a jump across the cosmos and learned to do it in 5 minutes.

Except EVERY TIME Vegeta does the same thing as Goku he doesn’t surpass him. Realizing something isn’t working for you and trying something else is the opposite of just being prideful

It just sounds like no matter what Vegeta does you will say it is bad because it is not UI.