Shouldn’t Goku and Vegeta have Godly Ki in their Base forms now???

[GodVegetto91]

I think Toriyama is to blame. He was the one who came up with absorbing SSG in base, he made base Goku beat up the much stronger Freeza... and he was the one who wrote on a napkin the U6 tournament with mid-Z tier characters for the following arc.

Toei, blindly follow Toriyama's route, I guess believing he would stick to what he wrote for the movies, while Toyo was smarter and took measures just in case Toriyama had more inconsistencies in his back pocket.

This is why I always say that Toyotaro is just simply a better writer than Toriyama.. There really is no polite way to say this.

Well, it's harder to create something from scratch than it is to do so from something that already exists. So I think, Toyotaro has it easier in many ways than Toriyama-san ever did. Though the pressure that's on his shoulders is quite immense. Toriyama-san needs someone to bounce ideas of off or someone to correct certain aspects of his stories. I think his editors did a lot for Dragon Ball over the years. I think Toriyama-san's writing is more artistic while Toyotaro's is more technical. Them working together is a good combo. By the end of Super, I could see myself agreeing with you, but so far it still feels too early too judge for me.

Toriyama has fucked up in recent years aswell. Such as straight up forgetting things from the original manga or the guidebooks, creating the universe 6 tournament arc as spoken about above.^^^ Among many other things. And we know for a fact that right now he does not have any pressure or stress in his life as he did before (he has all the time in the world.) And the fact that he had so much help from editors in the past does not make him look good at all, rather the opposite is the case. Toyotaro is far more bright and has a much better memory and mental clarity than Toriyama. That doesn’t mean that he’s perfect ofcourse. But there really is no legit way to defend the old man after all of this. I get that people like him for being the original dragon ball creator and even bringing this whole franchise into existence! (and for that, I have extreme levels of respect and admiration for him aswell!) but there comes a point where we have to accept the facts. Toriyama can come up with super cool concepts! But he’s just inconsistent, and forgetful about it... And he does not even take his own series too seriously and treats it with the same love and compassion as Toyotaro does (which is one of the WORST qualities an author can have.)

I’m objective.. I always give credit where credit’s due.. (And Toriyama deserves TONS of it!)

But I also give criticism if it’s absolutely necessary.. And in this case, it definitely is! There is a LOT to criticize him and Toei for...

All in all, I hope it’s all for the better! And we get a brilliant product in the end..

[pepd]

Spoiler:

This is why I always say that Toyotaro is just simply a better writer than Toriyama.. There really is no polite way to say this.

Well, it's harder to create something from scratch than it is to do so from something that already exists. So I think, Toyotaro has it easier in many ways than Toriyama-san ever did. Though the pressure that's on his shoulders is quite immense. Toriyama-san needs someone to bounce ideas of off or someone to correct certain aspects of his stories. I think his editors did a lot for Dragon Ball over the years. I think Toriyama-san's writing is more artistic while Toyotaro's is more technical. Them working together is a good combo. By the end of Super, I could see myself agreeing with you, but so far it still feels too early too judge for me.

Toriyama has fucked up in recent years aswell. Such as straight up forgetting things from the original manga or the guidebooks, creating the universe 6 tournament arc as spoken about above.^^^ Among many other things. And we know for a fact that right now he does not have any pressure or stress on his life as he did before (he has all the time in the world.) And the fact that he had so much help from editors in the past does not make him look good at all, rather the opposite is the case. Toyotaro is far more bright and has a much better memory and mental clarity than Toriyama. That doesn’t mean that he’s perfect ofcourse. But there really is no legit way to defend the old man after all of this. I get that people like him for being the original dragon ball creator and even bringing this whole franchise into existence! (and for that, I have extreme levels of respect and admiration for him aswell!) but there comes a point where we have to accept the facts. Toriyama can come up with super cool concepts! But he’s just inconsistent, and forgetful about it... And he does not even take his own series too seriously and treats it with the same love and compassion as Toyotaro does (which is one of the WORST qualities an author can have.)

I’m objective.. I always give credit where credit’s due.. (And Toriyama deserves TONS of it!)

But I also give criticism if it’s absolutely necessary.. And in this case, it definitely is! There is a LOT to criticize him and Toei for...

All in all, I hope it’s all for the better! And we get a brilliant product in the end..

We don't know what exactly has Toriyama made for DBS, and he doesn't have to consider or remember fan interpretations, theories or guidebooks

[GodVegetto91]

Spoiler:

Well, it's harder to create something from scratch than it is to do so from something that already exists. So I think, Toyotaro has it easier in many ways than Toriyama-san ever did. Though the pressure that's on his shoulders is quite immense. Toriyama-san needs someone to bounce ideas of off or someone to correct certain aspects of his stories. I think his editors did a lot for Dragon Ball over the years. I think Toriyama-san's writing is more artistic while Toyotaro's is more technical. Them working together is a good combo. By the end of Super, I could see myself agreeing with you, but so far it still feels too early too judge for me.

Toriyama has fucked up in recent years aswell. Such as straight up forgetting things from the original manga or the guidebooks, creating the universe 6 tournament arc as spoken about above.^^^ Among many other things. And we know for a fact that right now he does not have any pressure or stress on his life as he did before (he has all the time in the world.) And the fact that he had so much help from editors in the past does not make him look good at all, rather the opposite is the case. Toyotaro is far more bright and has a much better memory and mental clarity than Toriyama. That doesn’t mean that he’s perfect ofcourse. But there really is no legit way to defend the old man after all of this. I get that people like him for being the original dragon ball creator and even bringing this whole franchise into existence! (and for that, I have extreme levels of respect and admiration for him aswell!) but there comes a point where we have to accept the facts. Toriyama can come up with super cool concepts! But he’s just inconsistent, and forgetful about it... And he does not even take his own series too seriously and treats it with the same love and compassion as Toyotaro does (which is one of the WORST qualities an author can have.)

I’m objective.. I always give credit where credit’s due.. (And Toriyama deserves TONS of it!)

But I also give criticism if it’s absolutely necessary.. And in this case, it definitely is! There is a LOT to criticize him and Toei for...

All in all, I hope it’s all for the better! And we get a brilliant product in the end..

We don't know what exactly has Toriyama made for DBS, and he doesn't have to consider or remember fan interpretations, theories or guidebooks

Guidebooks info was based on the original manga. Toyotaro already incorporated it into his manga. It’s canon now. There’s no way you could possibly defend Toriyama for his wrongs. Luckily Toyotaro fixed the timelines and character ages now, so we’re already saved. Toriyama forgot actual things that happened in the manga, that are AS FAR REMOVED from “fan theories” and “interpretations” and “headcanon” as possible. You really should know what you’re criticizing first before commenting.

[pepd]

Spoiler:

Toriyama has fucked up in recent years aswell. Such as straight up forgetting things from the original manga or the guidebooks, creating the universe 6 tournament arc as spoken about above.^^^ Among many other things. And we know for a fact that right now he does not have any pressure or stress on his life as he did before (he has all the time in the world.) And the fact that he had so much help from editors in the past does not make him look good at all, rather the opposite is the case. Toyotaro is far more bright and has a much better memory and mental clarity than Toriyama. That doesn’t mean that he’s perfect ofcourse. But there really is no legit way to defend the old man after all of this. I get that people like him for being the original dragon ball creator and even bringing this whole franchise into existence! (and for that, I have extreme levels of respect and admiration for him aswell!) but there comes a point where we have to accept the facts. Toriyama can come up with super cool concepts! But he’s just inconsistent, and forgetful about it... And he does not even take his own series too seriously and treats it with the same love and compassion as Toyotaro does (which is one of the WORST qualities an author can have.)

I’m objective.. I always give credit where credit’s due.. (And Toriyama deserves TONS of it!)

But I also give criticism if it’s absolutely necessary.. And in this case, it definitely is! There is a LOT to criticize him and Toei for...

All in all, I hope it’s all for the better! And we get a brilliant product in the end..

We don't know what exactly has Toriyama made for DBS, and he doesn't have to consider or remember fan interpretations, theories or guidebooks

Guidebooks info was based on the original manga.

Based on his work. And made by thirds.

Toyotaro already incorporated it into his manga. It’s canon now.

I wont even bother with this, but I would like to point out that you yourself are admitting that at least it wasn't before.

There’s no way you could possibly defend Toriyama for his wrongs. Toriyama forgot actual things that happened in the manga, that are AS FAR REMOVED from “fan theories” and “interpretations” and “headcanon” as possible. You really should know what you’re criticizing first before commenting.

I was responding to what you said and I underlined: that Toriyama forgets things from the manga and guidebooks.
I'm pretty sure he forgets things from the manga, he himself has mentioned it multiple times, and he should obviously consider the original manga. But since you said that he forgets things from the guidebooks, I thought you may be also wrong/deceptive about "forgetting things from the manga", and pointed out that he doesn't have to consider the "things from the manga" that are not actually "things from the manga", but fan interpretations.

You really should know what you’re criticizing first before commenting.

The irony, I guess.
This is laughable and eye-rolling, but for some, specially news to the forum, may be actually discouraging, so it would be nice to avoid this attitude.

[JewyB]

I'm also of the opinion that the guidebooks shouldn't be considered "canon"(here we go), they were made by third parties, as said, and Toriyama shouldn't have to use them as reference for his world he created.

There are many examples of film writers having their properties taken away, having sequels made, then being hired back and ignoring the sequel, because it was made by a third party. Whilst the guidebooks aren't exactly Heroes level of "fanfiction", they were still written by someone else, and as such if he wants to ignore them when i comes to his own written work, he is well within his right. Otherwise where do we draw the line on what has to be accepted?

[BWri]

I'm also of the opinion that the guidebooks shouldn't be considered "canon"(here we go), they were made by third parties, as said, and Toriyama shouldn't have to use them as reference for his world he created.

There are many examples of film writers having their properties taken away, having sequels made, then being hired back and ignoring the sequel, because it was made by a third party. Whilst the guidebooks aren't exactly Heroes level of "fanfiction", they were still written by someone else, and as such if he wants to ignore them when i comes to his own written work, he is well within his right. Otherwise where do we draw the line on what has to be accepted?

This makes sense, but it also sucks to have an author who would rather introduce retcon on top of retcon rather than look back and adhere to the principles of his own creation that he himself created. That's why, in lieu of him using the guidebooks (which I don't even think are always correct) he would be better served having a "lorekeeper" who he confers with when he's writing. They would effectively function as his old editors, helping to guide his vision but ultimately Toriyama-san would possess the final say. In this way if he does decide to create retcons it's because he wants to and not because his memory is bad or doesn't have the proper details on hand.

I also wouldn't mind an official statement thanking the guidebook crew but finally putting to rest that power rankings and transformation multipliers aren't canon to his work.

[GodVegetto91]

What I am mainly referring to here is Kaioshin’s statement during the Buu Arc about Majin Buu supposively having first appeared during a time when “humans were first starting to learn to walk on 2 legs”, which, in the real world, would be about 5 to 6 million years BCE..
(This is from Toriyama’s OWN “canon” Dragon Ball Manga btw...!)

So the Daizenshuu obviously took that statement from the Manga to mean that it was around 5 million years prior to the events of DBZ. (Great move!) and I fully support them in that.

Then many years (decades even!) later, Toriyama casually decided to straight up ignore and retcon that (his very own statements and implications in the manga), by saying that Kaioshin is only a measly 75.000 years old (as opposed to 5 million) This is a classic case of old Toriyama being forgetful again.

So I’m glad we have someone competent in charge of Dragon Ball now in Toyotaro. I think he has done far more good than bad since his time when Super began. And I can almost say nothing but good and positive things about him, even though my expectations are very low and my demands are very high.

[Aim]

Considering that they have mastered Godly techniques which possess Godly Ki (Beerus has God ki), Goku’s silver haired UI also has God ki (confirmed a couple of times.).

And perhaps most importantly, TOPPO had God ki in his normal state (In fact, Toppo doesn’t even HAVE any transformations at all.) And he’s also confirmed a born mortal like Goku and Vegeta, yet he had God ki, despite having shown NO hint of having Hakai at his disposal, which Vegeta now actually DOES HAVE in his Base form!

Toppo likely doesn’t have Hakai, and just “regular God ki” like SSG, SSB, and SSBE have, while Vegeta now does! (A HIGHER “God” power...)

What do you guys think???

I think RoF had it so they’d basically absorbed the god ki, thus becoming “God like Saiyan’s”, key word like. When they turned into SS they naturally progressed to SSGSS, though I’m unsure if this is something Toriyama wanted then retconned or if it was something Toei cooked up while high.

I do remember Toriyama saying something akin to Son only going to use SS and the god forms from now on, or train the SS form to surpass SS2 and 3.

[Hugo Boss]

I think RoF had it so they’d basically absorbed the god ki, thus becoming “God like Saiyan’s”, key word like. When they turned into SS they naturally progressed to SSGSS, though I’m unsure if this is something Toriyama wanted then retconned or if it was something Toei cooked up while high.

I do remember Toriyama saying something akin to Son only going to use SS and the god forms from now on, or train the SS form to surpass SS2 and 3.

Between Battle of Gods and Resurrection of Freeza Toriyama said this..

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

This is basically what happens when they train with Whis. They don’t use Super Saiyan until they unlock SSGSS. It’s actually not about surpassing SS2 or SS3, it’s not it. More like these forms having less cost-benefit.

As for the first part of your post…

Saiyan beyond God (神を超えたサイヤ人 Kami wo koeta Saiya-jin, lit. "Saiyan who has surpassed a God"), also called God-like Saiyan, is an empowered state of being undertaken by Saiyans who gain control of Super Saiyan God, and gain the ability to utilize god-like power without having to change their form.

It doesn’t talk about absorbing or emitting god ki, but rather gaining the ability to utilize god-like power. This is probably a product of their base form being pushed very far by Whis. It’s worth noting that Goku’s ki in this state can be sensed, but in SSGSS it can’t.

[Thani]

What I am mainly referring to here is Kaioshin’s statement during the Buu Arc about Majin Buu supposively having first appeared during a time when “humans were first starting to learn to walk on 2 legs”, which, in the real world, would be about 5 to 6 million years BCE..
(This is from Toriyama’s OWN “canon” Dragon Ball Manga btw...!)

So the Daizenshuu obviously took that statement from the Manga to mean that it was around 5 million years prior to the events of DBZ. (Great move!) and I fully support them in that.

Then many years (decades even!) later, Toriyama casually decided to straight up ignore and retcon that (his very own statements and implications in the manga), by saying that Kaioshin is only a measly 75.000 years old (as opposed to 5 million) This is a classic case of old Toriyama being forgetful again.

So I’m glad we have someone competent in charge of Dragon Ball now in Toyotaro. I think he has done far more good than bad since his time when Super began. And I can almost say nothing but good and positive things about him, even though my expectations are very low and my demands are very high.

But wait, when did Toriyama say that Shin is 75k years old?

[GodVegetto91]

What I am mainly referring to here is Kaioshin’s statement during the Buu Arc about Majin Buu supposively having first appeared during a time when “humans were first starting to learn to walk on 2 legs”, which, in the real world, would be about 5 to 6 million years BCE..
(This is from Toriyama’s OWN “canon” Dragon Ball Manga btw...!)

So the Daizenshuu obviously took that statement from the Manga to mean that it was around 5 million years prior to the events of DBZ. (Great move!) and I fully support them in that.

Then many years (decades even!) later, Toriyama casually decided to straight up ignore and retcon that (his very own statements and implications in the manga), by saying that Kaioshin is only a measly 75.000 years old (as opposed to 5 million) This is a classic case of old Toriyama being forgetful again.

So I’m glad we have someone competent in charge of Dragon Ball now in Toyotaro. I think he has done far more good than bad since his time when Super began. And I can almost say nothing but good and positive things about him, even though my expectations are very low and my demands are very high.

But wait, when did Toriyama say that Shin is 75k years old?

In a random interview a couple of years back. It’s translated here on Kanzenshuu somewhere.

[TheQuestioner]

Considering that they have mastered Godly techniques which possess Godly Ki (Beerus has God ki), Goku’s silver haired UI also has God ki (confirmed a couple of times.).

And perhaps most importantly, TOPPO had God ki in his normal state (In fact, Toppo doesn’t even HAVE any transformations at all.) And he’s also confirmed a born mortal like Goku and Vegeta, yet he had God ki, despite having shown NO hint of having Hakai at his disposal, which Vegeta now actually DOES HAVE in his Base form!

Toppo likely doesn’t have Hakai, and just “regular God ki” like SSG, SSB, and SSBE have, while Vegeta now does! (A HIGHER “God” power...)

What do you guys think???

I disagree, just because Vegeta has mild control over Hakai doesn't mean he can use God Ki in his base unless there's an indication in the manga supporting that claim. Goku could use Hakai in SSGSS and currently in the manga, for some bizarre reason, the presence of God Ki in the god forms seems to be inconsistent. Vegeta seems to imply that only Goku's UI has God Ki.



Gohan states that they can't detect the chi of Goku when he's blitzing around beating up Saganbo, implying that he and the others can sense Goku in his usual forms.



This conflicts with this.



So overall, I have no clue what the hell is going on with God Ki in this series.

[LoganForkHands73]

With regards to the whole God ki sense thing, is it possible that the other Z-Warriors have just acclimatised themselves to sensing Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan God forms after being exposed to them for so long? Ultra Instinct is repeating the same beat of it being the new undetectable hotness, but Gohan and the others will probably learn to sense that as well.

[TheQuestioner]

With regards to the whole God ki sense thing, is it possible that the other Z-Warriors have just acclimatised themselves to sensing Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan God forms after being exposed to them for so long? Ultra Instinct is repeating the same beat of it being the new undetectable hotness, but Gohan and the others will probably learn to sense that as well.

I can definitely see that possibility as much as I dislike that idea, but as of right now, it is inconsistent.

[Grimlock]

is it possible that the other Z-Warriors have just acclimatised themselves to sensing Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan God forms after being exposed to them for so long?

When you get acclimatized to nothingness, nothingness will always be what you'll get. You won't all of a sudden start to feel anything else other than that.

Short and logical answer: no, not possible.

[TheQuestioner]

When you get acclimatized to nothingness, nothingness will always be what you'll get. You won't all of a sudden start to feel anything else other than that.

Short and logical answer: no, not possible.

It's illogical, but I certainly think it's possible for the manga to incorporate that, or just not address it.

[HeroR]

With regards to the whole God ki sense thing, is it possible that the other Z-Warriors have just acclimatised themselves to sensing Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan God forms after being exposed to them for so long? Ultra Instinct is repeating the same beat of it being the new undetectable hotness, but Gohan and the others will probably learn to sense that as well.

Mixing two things up.

In the manga, God Ki can't be sensed by anyone who isn't a god or isn't using god ki, while the anime has it that anyone with a big enough power level or some type of training can. Like Frieza in the Resurrection 'F' retelling could sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, but none of the Z-Fighters could. The Oracle Fish also took special note Vegeta could now sense god ki when he sensed Whis returning with Goku. Whis confirmed this when he said that both Goku and Vegeta could barely began to sense god ki.

UI stands out since the characters could 'sense' it, but not really. It was like with god ki when they couldn't sense it, but could feel great pressure. In UI's case, it was heat. However, many mistook this as the Z-Fighters sensing Goku, which is why people believed for a long time UI didn't used god ki, although it was called the form of the gods. The manga cleared this up by outright stating that yes, UI uses god ki.

In the manga, god ki is just not sensible at all outside of god users. They don't even feel pressure and UI being hot is only in the anime.

[BWri]

With regards to the whole God ki sense thing, is it possible that the other Z-Warriors have just acclimatised themselves to sensing Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan God forms after being exposed to them for so long? Ultra Instinct is repeating the same beat of it being the new undetectable hotness, but Gohan and the others will probably learn to sense that as well.

Mixing two things up.

In the manga, God Ki can't be sensed by anyone who isn't a god or isn't using god ki, while the anime has it that anyone with a big enough power level or some type of training can. Like Frieza in the Resurrection 'F' retelling could sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, but none of the Z-Fighters could. The Oracle Fish also took special note Vegeta could now sense god ki when he sensed Whis returning with Goku. Whis confirmed this when he said that both Goku and Vegeta could barely began to sense god ki.

UI stands out since the characters could 'sense' it, but not really. It was like with god ki when they couldn't sense it, but could feel great pressure. In UI's case, it was heat. However, many mistook this as the Z-Fighters sensing Goku, which is why people believed for a long time UI didn't used god ki, although it was called the form of the gods. The manga cleared this up by outright stating that yes, UI uses god ki.

In the manga, god ki is just not sensible at all outside of god users. They don't even feel pressure and UI being hot is only in the anime.

Nah, Logan's right. Even the manga is inconsistent with this. Piccolo could sense Vegeta's god strength in the Moro arc, hence his "Vegeta has gotten a lot stronger. I can barely recognize him" line. There are probably others but that's the most recent one that comes to mind.

It's either an inconsistency or Piccolo is measuring the vague pressure feeling of god ki like he seems to do in the anime or he can just flat out sense god ki or he can just tell Vegeta's stronger by the way he's fighting. At this point I'm not sure which, but it's likely not the last one since according to everyone else Vegeta wasn't doing well at that moment.

And yeah, Logan, I think a few of the mortal fighters like Piccolo have been honing their senses to god ki, enough to vaguely measure it. In the anime even the humans are accurate with this sense, but as we see with Piccolo he's able to deduce Vegeta's strength. Maybe he and Gohan will be able to sense UI next.

[Grimlock]

Piccolo is merged with Kami. With tweaks/retcons and whatnot, we can say he can sense god Ki because of that.

[BWri]

Piccolo is merged with Kami. With tweaks/retcons and whatnot, we can say he can sense god Ki because of that.

Makes sense. The anime never followed up on this possible thread so I figured it was off the table, but I can see it being a thing. Problem is, we need the story to at some point confirm that.