Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Peach
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Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Peach » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:19 am

They teamed up against Buu, Zamasu, Jiren, Broly, and Moro. Why not team up against Beerus and finally put that cat in his place?

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Koitsukai » Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:13 am

For what reason? he is not in their way nor poses any kind of threat.

On the contrary, he's been more than helpful, specially this current arc, becoming Vegeta's sensei.
Against Moro, if Beerus didn't feel like eating Earth's food, Merus would've never been near by to die for Goku and help him master UI.
They owe him a lot, the god forms are a direct consequence of Beerus' presence, not to mention Earth is still rotating on its axis because Beerus spared it in BoG. And because he let Whis turn back time in RoF.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Thani » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:06 pm

Koitsukai wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:13 am For what reason? he is not in their way nor poses any kind of threat.

On the contrary, he's been more than helpful, specially this current arc, becoming Vegeta's sensei.
Against Moro, if Beerus didn't feel like eating Earth's food, Merus would've never been near by to die for Goku and help him master UI.
They owe him a lot, the god forms are a direct consequence of Beerus' presence, not to mention Earth is still rotating on its axis because Beerus spared it in BoG. And because he let Whis turn back time in RoF.
On that note, the way Beerus' desire of Earth food was portrayed was so convenient that it felt like it was his way of going to Earth to help out.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:13 pm

Well, this was basically addressed in Revival of F when Whis mentioned that if they really tried to work together, Goku and Vegeta might already be able to challenge Beerus, so I guess the simplest reason is that Goku and Vegeta don't generally want to team up.

While Dragon Ball Super has made great play of Goku and Vegeta needing to work together, it has managed to generate the preconditions for most of its twists and turns by them eschewing this until absolutely forced to do otherwise - for Zamas, they take turns (which gives Black most of his power in the early part of the arc), and continue to try to insist on this even when hopelessly outclassed later on; for the Tournament of Power, Goku and Vegeta immediately go separate ways to do their own thing rather than working as a team, and they each challenge Jiren individually, not teaming up until all the other attempts have been made and time is almost up; they also take turns with Broly (like with Black, their individual actions give him most of his power, which in turn creates the need to work together by the end), and with Moro (and again, they give him his start in gaining power), and now in the Granolah arc they're being framed as a pair who are principally opposing each other as rivals and proxies of their respective masters, rather than as a pair who will be working together in the coming confrontation.

Considering this (and the fact that they have both voiced a preference for fighting alone whenever it's brought up - Vegeta more vociferously than Goku, but Goku always basically agrees with the sentiment: two examples are Revival of F itself and the beginning of the Moro arc), I would think it wholly uncharacteristic for them to lay this aside specifically to take on the individual who has been one of their key spurs to independent development over the series so far; the prospect of being able to defeat Beerus one-on-one is probably one of the main attractions of their continued engagement.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:42 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:13 pm Well, this was basically addressed in Revival of F when Whis mentioned that if they really tried to work together, Goku and Vegeta might already be able to challenge Beerus, so I guess the simplest reason is that Goku and Vegeta don't generally want to team up.

While Dragon Ball Super has made great play of Goku and Vegeta needing to work together, it has managed to generate the preconditions for most of its twists and turns by them eschewing this until absolutely forced to do otherwise - for Zamas, they take turns (which gives Black most of his power in the early part of the arc), and continue to try to insist on this even when hopelessly outclassed later on; for the Tournament of Power, Goku and Vegeta immediately go separate ways to do their own thing rather than working as a team, and they each challenge Jiren individually, not teaming up until all the other attempts have been made and time is almost up; they also take turns with Broly (like with Black, their individual actions give him most of his power, which in turn creates the need to work together by the end), and with Moro (and again, they give him his start in gaining power), and now in the Granolah arc they're being framed as a pair who are principally opposing each other as rivals and proxies of their respective masters, rather than as a pair who will be working together in the coming confrontation.

Considering this (and the fact that they have both voiced a preference for fighting alone whenever it's brought up - Vegeta more vociferously than Goku, but Goku always basically agrees with the sentiment: two examples are Revival of F itself and the beginning of the Moro arc), I would think it wholly uncharacteristic for them to lay this aside specifically to take on the individual who has been one of their key spurs to independent development over the series so far; the prospect of being able to defeat Beerus one-on-one is probably one of the main attractions of their continued engagement.
Agreed on this 100%. However, I'll add that they're both adults and should start acting like one. They've been shown time and time again that their stubborness on not working together is detrimental, and they actually accomplish greater things when teaming up. They don't have to like it, but they should acknowledge the fact. Which they don't.

And it's getting really old, really fast.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Magnificent Ponta » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:49 pm

Thani wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:42 pmThey've been shown time and time again that their stubborness on not working together is detrimental, and they actually accomplish greater things when teaming up. They don't have to like it, but they should acknowledge the fact.
I don't disagree with this, but it's worth bearing in mind that some added nuance has been brought to this dynamic by the fact that their individual, increasingly separate strivings have given them the wherewithal to actually resolve these challenges - in relatively small but significant ways in the Future Trunks and Tournament of Power arcs, but most notably and recently, Goku's delving deeper into Ultra Instinct and Vegeta's Spirit Control in the Moro arc, which necessitated a parting before a united resolution - one suspects something similar for the current progress of the Granolah arc.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Thani » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:54 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:49 pm
Thani wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:42 pmThey've been shown time and time again that their stubborness on not working together is detrimental, and they actually accomplish greater things when teaming up. They don't have to like it, but they should acknowledge the fact.
I don't disagree with this, but it's worth bearing in mind that some added nuance has been brought to this dynamic by the fact that their individual, increasingly separate strivings have given them the wherewithal to actually resolve these challenges - in relatively small but significant ways in the Future Trunks and Tournament of Power arcs, but most notably and recently, Goku's delving deeper into Ultra Instinct and Vegeta's Spirit Control in the Moro arc, which necessitated a parting before a united resolution - one suspects something similar for the current progress of the Granolah arc.
Agreed. It does feels like this is what Toyo is heading to, and I sure hope it's the case.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Jack Bz » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:03 pm

Magnificent Ponta wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:13 pm Well, this was basically addressed in Revival of F when Whis mentioned that if they really tried to work together, Goku and Vegeta might already be able to challenge Beerus, so I guess the simplest reason is that Goku and Vegeta don't generally want to team up.

While Dragon Ball Super has made great play of Goku and Vegeta needing to work together, it has managed to generate the preconditions for most of its twists and turns by them eschewing this until absolutely forced to do otherwise - for Zamas, they take turns (which gives Black most of his power in the early part of the arc), and continue to try to insist on this even when hopelessly outclassed later on; for the Tournament of Power, Goku and Vegeta immediately go separate ways to do their own thing rather than working as a team, and they each challenge Jiren individually, not teaming up until all the other attempts have been made and time is almost up; they also take turns with Broly (like with Black, their individual actions give him most of his power, which in turn creates the need to work together by the end), and with Moro (and again, they give him his start in gaining power), and now in the Granolah arc they're being framed as a pair who are principally opposing each other as rivals and proxies of their respective masters, rather than as a pair who will be working together in the coming confrontation.

Considering this (and the fact that they have both voiced a preference for fighting alone whenever it's brought up - Vegeta more vociferously than Goku, but Goku always basically agrees with the sentiment: two examples are Revival of F itself and the beginning of the Moro arc), I would think it wholly uncharacteristic for them to lay this aside specifically to take on the individual who has been one of their key spurs to independent development over the series so far; the prospect of being able to defeat Beerus one-on-one is probably one of the main attractions of their continued engagement.
Good post. Obviously it was clear that Goku and Vegeta teaming up would have solved many problems before they begun, but I somehow never noticed that it's been a recurring theme that them taking turns is the reason the enemies get so strong in the first place.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Lionel » Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:56 pm

Beerus doesn't present an existential threat to the lives and worlds of the Saiyan pair as the consequences of the Tournament of Power and eventually Broly did. If there's viable alternatives they can take advantage of on their own then they'll no doubt capitalise on them rather than turn to their rival. It's one of the greatest liabilities of having to depend on these two whimful self-gratifying aliens for your survival because the writer is keen on reinforcing the hopeless dependency mindset of everyone else towards Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Trouser » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:56 pm

He's not a threat. He's just annoying cat. BUT if there were a fight, Gogeta/Vegetto should kick his ass (originally Goku with Blue Kaioken should beat him, but retcons...).
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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Polyphase Avatron » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:26 am

The only time he was an actual threat that would have required such a thing, Vegeta was too weak.
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Re: Why don't Goku and Vegeta just team up against Beerus?

Post by Cipher » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:10 am

Why would they? They don’t want to kill him, and beating him together wouldn’t prove the one thing they want to prove with him anyway, which is that they can beat him on their own.

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