Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mr_CINDER » Mon May 23, 2022 11:24 am

ObnoxiousNamek wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 9:01 am The tools they are using are great based on that livestream seminar Graphinica had. They are actually using Maya (Although why use Unreal Engine at all for rendering when you have Maya which has be certified for movie production). The problem why the film still looks like shit and will continue to look like utter shit no matter how many fake delays excuses Toei gives is simply the talent is godawful. Having a no name like Tetsuro Kodama as a director on this film is like having a line cook who is masquerading as a Michelin star chef while being presented some of the most expensive/exotic ingredients known to man and ultimately produces a grilled cheese sandwich with a spoiled banana sticking out the sides & actually having the gall to think you made a dish that’s the crème de la crème.
before Joker which went on to became highest grossing R rated movie ever Todd Philips only directed comedy movies like The hangover series, Duedate etc , I think this is the same situation with Kodama.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ZeroNeonix » Mon May 23, 2022 11:28 am

Zamasu had a motivation. Many movie villains don't really have one, or when they do, it's really stupid. Broly going on a killing spree because Goku cried when they were little was such a stupid motivation, it turned me off of the original character. Bojack, I guess, wants to rule the universe or something.

Janemba was made up of all the evil they were drawing out of those who were sent to Hell, so it makes sense he'd be a mindless, evil monster. But he's basically Kid Buu. No lines, no personality, but cool powers. Mindlessly destructive.

Androids 13, 14, and 15 were basically a repeat of the canonical Android Saga. Their motivation is to kill Goku, because they were programmed to. That's it.

Lord Slug was the most interesting movie villain to me, although he's basically a King Piccolo reboot. He is an evil Namekian who starts off old, but uses the Dragon Balls to make himself young again, unlike Piccolo who was reincarnated via an egg to become young. Lord Slug becomes a giant, just like Piccolo... Wait, why didn't Piccolo become giant too in the movie? We know he can do it. But when he did it, he had less success. Goku said it just made him a bigger target. Guess Slug is just...better. I don't know. After Slug wishes for eternal youth, I'm not sure what his next goal is. Just evil, I guess.

Turles was the generic "evil doppelganger of the protagonist" trope. I like that later material recontextualized the Fruit of the Tree of Might (of Knowledge of Good and Evil) into a forbidden fruit of the gods. Makes you wonder how Turles got his hands on it. But his motivation is again basically nonexistent. He uses the fruit to become stronger. Maybe he would have later gone to challenge Frieza, and fail miserably, but I don't believe that was ever stated.

Simple villains are fine. They can be fun. But it's nice to have some depth to the villains too. That's why I prefer Super Broly, and look forward to his return. He's got more going for him than his original counterpart.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ObnoxiousNamek » Mon May 23, 2022 11:40 am

Zelvin wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 10:23 am
It's already been said, but repeating Gohan reviving his "Ultimate" power is just poor writing. He went from wanting to keep up both his studies and training following the ToP and the events of the Moro Arc in the manga, to...just being a family man again and eschewing all his training again. Just like what happened following the Buu arc and what happened after the Cell Games. We've already done this character arc for him before. And this continues to be a problem with the series at large. Where they just reset character development to retell the same story beats and lessons again instead of just trying to grow the story forward naturally.

But again, as we've seen, they keep coming back to the same dry well for ideas they've already used. And are digging through the bedrock at the bottom to see if there's anything they haven't already reused to death. And what we got was a mish-mash of elements from previous DBZ movies. Which is just another reason why I can't find any interest in the movie. It's ultimately filler that rehashes the same points as previous works. It may be nice to see Pan, but that's it. Ultimately all I can suggest is to wait for the movie to come out on sale at some point if you're really interested.
The writers are either knowingly or unknowingly working against each other. Like the anime staff or toyotaro didnt tell toriyama they already did the Gohan is back schtick. Which is why this is happening again for the 3rd time. Its like there is no organization or communication between the ppl working on this franchise.

Ppl wont have to wait for a sale just wait till the full synopsis leak is online to get the story no need to watch the janky CGI. Although I'm sure anyone that knows toriyamas extremely basic toddler level writing you can pretty much predict the whole movie just from the trailer. i mean ffs this movie has a plot so thin I feel like if an ant were to crawl on the script toriyama “wrote” it would disintegrate into ash like the heroes at the end of Infinity War.


I've said before get a new scriptwriter & a good character designer for the movies and preferably somone whos not a franchise fanboy and you can begin to turn this franchise around.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by WittyUsername » Mon May 23, 2022 5:59 pm

ZeroNeonix wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:28 am Zamasu had a motivation. Many movie villains don't really have one, or when they do, it's really stupid. Broly going on a killing spree because Goku cried when they were little was such a stupid motivation, it turned me off of the original character. Bojack, I guess, wants to rule the universe or something.

Janemba was made up of all the evil they were drawing out of those who were sent to Hell, so it makes sense he'd be a mindless, evil monster. But he's basically Kid Buu. No lines, no personality, but cool powers. Mindlessly destructive.

Androids 13, 14, and 15 were basically a repeat of the canonical Android Saga. Their motivation is to kill Goku, because they were programmed to. That's it.

Lord Slug was the most interesting movie villain to me, although he's basically a King Piccolo reboot. He is an evil Namekian who starts off old, but uses the Dragon Balls to make himself young again, unlike Piccolo who was reincarnated via an egg to become young. Lord Slug becomes a giant, just like Piccolo... Wait, why didn't Piccolo become giant too in the movie? We know he can do it. But when he did it, he had less success. Goku said it just made him a bigger target. Guess Slug is just...better. I don't know. After Slug wishes for eternal youth, I'm not sure what his next goal is. Just evil, I guess.

Turles was the generic "evil doppelganger of the protagonist" trope. I like that later material recontextualized the Fruit of the Tree of Might (of Knowledge of Good and Evil) into a forbidden fruit of the gods. Makes you wonder how Turles got his hands on it. But his motivation is again basically nonexistent. He uses the fruit to become stronger. Maybe he would have later gone to challenge Frieza, and fail miserably, but I don't believe that was ever stated.

Simple villains are fine. They can be fun. But it's nice to have some depth to the villains too. That's why I prefer Super Broly, and look forward to his return. He's got more going for him than his original counterpart.
For the record, the official explanation Movie 8 gives is that being near Goku caused Broly’s Saiyan instincts to awaken. It doesn’t mention anything about him being triggered by Goku’s crying.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Zelvin » Mon May 23, 2022 9:43 pm

WittyUsername wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 5:59 pm
ZeroNeonix wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:28 am Zamasu had a motivation. Many movie villains don't really have one, or when they do, it's really stupid. Broly going on a killing spree because Goku cried when they were little was such a stupid motivation, it turned me off of the original character.
For the record, the official explanation Movie 8 gives is that being near Goku caused Broly’s Saiyan instincts to awaken. It doesn’t mention anything about him being triggered by Goku’s crying.
I feel anyone who actually took time to think would see that Broly's obsession with Goku isn't tied solely to the crying. It was because of Pain. The pain caused by Goku's shrieking and that getting tied with and twisted with the pain of being stabbed, through which Goku's crying continued while Broly was left in horrific agony before getting dumped and left to die with Paragus. Honestly, Broly's tale is much more of a tragedy. Impaled and left to suffer on a dying planet, driven insane by agony and his own innate power, with no to help him, no one to save him from his own suffering, and raised solely to be a killing machine. The result was an unstoppable juggernaut.

If you look at it, the only real difference between Z-Broly and Super Broly is the fact King Vegeta tried to murder one the day he was born and the other he banished to a desolate world as a 5yr old.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ZeroNeonix » Tue May 24, 2022 1:24 am

WittyUsername wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 5:59 pm
ZeroNeonix wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:28 am Zamasu had a motivation. Many movie villains don't really have one, or when they do, it's really stupid. Broly going on a killing spree because Goku cried when they were little was such a stupid motivation, it turned me off of the original character. Bojack, I guess, wants to rule the universe or something.

Janemba was made up of all the evil they were drawing out of those who were sent to Hell, so it makes sense he'd be a mindless, evil monster. But he's basically Kid Buu. No lines, no personality, but cool powers. Mindlessly destructive.

Androids 13, 14, and 15 were basically a repeat of the canonical Android Saga. Their motivation is to kill Goku, because they were programmed to. That's it.

Lord Slug was the most interesting movie villain to me, although he's basically a King Piccolo reboot. He is an evil Namekian who starts off old, but uses the Dragon Balls to make himself young again, unlike Piccolo who was reincarnated via an egg to become young. Lord Slug becomes a giant, just like Piccolo... Wait, why didn't Piccolo become giant too in the movie? We know he can do it. But when he did it, he had less success. Goku said it just made him a bigger target. Guess Slug is just...better. I don't know. After Slug wishes for eternal youth, I'm not sure what his next goal is. Just evil, I guess.

Turles was the generic "evil doppelganger of the protagonist" trope. I like that later material recontextualized the Fruit of the Tree of Might (of Knowledge of Good and Evil) into a forbidden fruit of the gods. Makes you wonder how Turles got his hands on it. But his motivation is again basically nonexistent. He uses the fruit to become stronger. Maybe he would have later gone to challenge Frieza, and fail miserably, but I don't believe that was ever stated.

Simple villains are fine. They can be fun. But it's nice to have some depth to the villains too. That's why I prefer Super Broly, and look forward to his return. He's got more going for him than his original counterpart.
For the record, the official explanation Movie 8 gives is that being near Goku caused Broly’s Saiyan instincts to awaken. It doesn’t mention anything about him being triggered by Goku’s crying.
The proud Saiyan Vegeta was there the whole time. The Vegeta whose father attempted to murder Broly. Why was it the name "Kakarot" that set him off? Why is it the Saiyan with amnesia, dressed in Earthling clothes that Broly becomes fixated on?

Almost seems like this should have been Vegeta's story, but Toei couldn't let someone other than Goku have the spotlight. lol

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 24, 2022 6:10 am

JulieYBM wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:00 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 10:54 am
JulieYBM wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 10:46 am

There's nothing morally grey about committing genocide.
No, but when someone has a more complex motivation than just "rawr I'm evil so I'm going to kill everyone", it's fun to talk about it.

We can't talk about the motivations of the old DBZ movie villains because they are all generic pure evil monsters.

The reason why New Broly became so popular is because he wasn't just a generic evil brute like his DBZ counterpart. People liked that Toriyama gave more depth to this antagonist, who originally had none.
My only point was that Zamasu is not morally grey. That is the only argument I was making.
I don't know why you want to dismiss so easily that Zamasu was morally grey, when Toriyama even said that he wanted to create a moral conflict with this villain.

Was Zamasu morally grey when he decided to exterminate all mortals? No, he was too far gone at that point and stated to be beyond redemption.

Was he morally grey BEFORE that, when he was still a student? Yes. He wasn't bent on genocide yet and was willing to improve. He agreed to spar with Goku because he trusted Gowasu that, maybe, if he sparred with a mortal, he would improve his mindset.

Can you name another villain from DB who wasn't introduced as evil? Can you name another villain from DB who had a friendly spar with Goku?

In the end they are villains, of course they will commit evil acts. There is not a single villain in fiction who has not done something evil, otherwise they wouldn't be villains... but there are clear differences between a villain like Zamasu, who has original motivations for his actions, and a villain like [Insert any villain from DBZ movies], who have generic pure evil motivations.
ZeroNeonix wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:28 am Simple villains are fine. They can be fun. But it's nice to have some depth to the villains too. That's why I prefer Super Broly, and look forward to his return. He's got more going for him than his original counterpart.
Would people be fine with villains like Frieza, Cell, or Buu, if they were written today and weren't surrounded by nostalgia?

Super always tried to present antagonists who were not just generic pure evil. Beerus is not outright evil, Jiren and Hit were trying to save their worlds like everyone else, and Broly was a victim of parental abuse. And Zamasu for the aforementioned reasons. Even Heroes introduced a villain like Hearts, who wanted to free mortals from the Gods. I don't know how much Toriyama wrote Moro, but he approved of the Heeters, and they are just generic pure evil monsters. Why do they want universe domination? Why are they evil? For fun and games, I guess.

I'd argue that "simple villains" like the DBZ villains are no longer enough, Super has set a new standard with antagonists. They should be more complex than just "I want to rule the world because I'm evil and thats what evil people want".

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by MCDaveG » Tue May 24, 2022 9:32 am

For the villains, I must say that Tenshinhan definitely wasn't evil. He was the classic martial arts trope of a student subservient to his master, but Goku showed him that the world is not black and white.

And Buu also wasn't really evil when first introduced, he just did what he was used to and wasn't hell bent on killing Goku, as he enjoyed the fight with him and could've been convinced. Yeah, it was later introduced that this is because of the Dai Kaioshin being absorbed by him and we know the rest, Buu being pure evil djinn, simmilar to Piccolo Daimao, who was the evil incarnate rejected from Kami.
We actually don't really know the true nature of original Buu, as he never spoke and not much was given away about him, but he worked for me as a villain in Z, it was this unstoppable force with unlimited power and nonstop regeneration abilities. The arc was really intense to me as a kid.

Vegeta also wasn't pure evil, but a product of his upbringing and being "raised" by Freeza pretty much, with Freeza being the classic trope of a dictator (we have one real life nowadays again and well publicized to make a nice comparison) slash emperor, who had a universal empire and conquered others to sell to the others.

In that, commander Red was simmilar and Pilaf as well.

Only really evil antagonist in DB and Z I can think of was Cell. He was just obsessed with his power and wanted to destroy everything just for the sake of it and had nothing going on. Again, we can debate in-universe if that was because he is a programmed bio machine and we know how great Gero was at programming his androids, as pretty much nobody except for 16 was hell bent on killing Goku, but went rogue, with 16 having a knack for nature and animals. Probably Android 19 was only succesful with the programming?

So far, Gamma boys look like they are not really villains, but probably misguided robots, who think that they are serving good. Have those vibes from them even in Legends from the small talk they have there, they don't seem evil.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Majin Buu » Tue May 24, 2022 10:03 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:10 am Was Zamasu morally grey when he decided to exterminate all mortals? No, he was too far gone at that point and stated to be beyond redemption.
Was he morally grey BEFORE that, when he was still a student?
Yeah, but that's irrelevant to Julie's point. Like you said, he stopped being morally gray when he decided to start doing heinous things.
Can you name another villain from DB who wasn't introduced as evil? Can you name another villain from DB who had a friendly spar with Goku?
Fat Buu, who I'd argue was a more complex antagonist than you're giving him credit for.

While he has evil within him and he does kill and destroy, he only does the latter because he doesn't know any better and was taught by unscrupulous people to play that way. He only ever becomes genuinely malicious when people anger him (Dabura, Vegeta, Babidi, random townspeople), which is where the evil within him starts to show. He steams out that evil after Bee and Mr. Satan are shot because he's actively resisting doing what he normally does when people anger him. And unlike Zamasu, he changes his ways after someone he's friends with tells him that killing is wrong, facilitating the emergence of his truly evil incarnations when the aforementioned shootings happen.

As for sparring, Goku and Fat Buu weren't officially sparring, but they might as well have been considering how friendly they were towards each other the entire time (anime filler makes this less obvious) and that they clearly weren't going all out. Goku outright compliments Buu's strength at one point and Buu is clearly flattered.

The manchild genie that kills and destroys for fun is less of a prick than Zamasu.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Grimlock » Tue May 24, 2022 11:12 am

Something's definitely wrong when their very own target audience starts to make notice.

I'd say the marketing of Movie 1 would have been perfect, if it weren't for them revealing Gogeta. But for Movie 2 they're doing the exact opposite, not only are they not revealing what is inside that thing (which is good and hopefully they keep it that way), but they are not revealing anything else either.

There isn't a single trailer where I can see grown-up Dende, Goten and Trunks. All we have are still images ever since they were revealed in the beginning of the year, we're now approaching the middle of the year.

Besides the need to find their own Kevin Feige, they also need to find someone capable of handling marketing as well. Two jobs are vacant.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Mr Baggins » Tue May 24, 2022 11:47 am

Re: villain talk above:

"What is this antagonist doing for the story?" is a more important question to ask than just "Is this bad guy morally ambiguous?" -- plenty of bland villains are morally ambiguous, just as a lot of great villains are unrepentantly evil. The former question is what gives them meaning and narrative weight.

Saiyan arc Vegeta is the antithesis to Goku in their nature vs. nurture dichotomy. Freeza is the corporate, racist, elite class foil to our backwater heroes. Cell wants to be perfect. Moro reflects Vegeta's past atrocities. There are more examples I could come up with, but you get the point; they're in a different league than your typical brutish Z movie villain.

With Toriyama in charge, I think we'll be fine.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by goku the krump dancer » Tue May 24, 2022 11:51 am

Zamasu went from being "good" to bad, that's not Morally Grey, that's literally one end of the spectrum to the other. Being morally grey means you're neutral not necessarily good or bad, The God's of Destruction are supposed to be morally grey, Shenron doesnt have an allegiance to good or evil likewise for the Angels. Zamasu often gets compared to Sensui from Yuyu Hakusho and even HE isn't "morally grey" either, he went from being the champion of humans to the self proclaimed champion of demons again thats literally from good to bad.
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 24, 2022 12:45 pm

Majin Buu wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:03 am While he has evil within him and he does kill and destroy, he only does the latter because he doesn't know any better and was taught by unscrupulous people to play that way. He only ever becomes genuinely malicious when people anger him (Dabura, Vegeta, Babidi, random townspeople), which is where the evil within him starts to show. He steams out that evil after Bee and Mr. Satan are shot because he's actively resisting doing what he normally does when people anger him. And unlike Zamasu, he changes his ways after someone he's friends with tells him that killing is wrong, facilitating the emergence of his truly evil incarnations when the aforementioned shootings happen.
This is his personality (doesn't want to hurt people, "wrestles" with his evil counterpart inside of him), not his motivations. I don't deny that Majin Buu is interesting with his gimmick of gaining the personality traits of the people he absorbs, but again he has no reason for committing genocide. The original Buu commits genocide simply because he is evil.

Meanwhile, Zamasu and Hearts commit evil acts because they think they are doing the right thing. A villain should always have some kind of understandable motive, not "i'm going to destroy this planet because i am a pure evil unhinged gremlin".

Even Dr. Gero is more complex, because he wanted to get revenge for the death of his comrades. Of course, we would have to ask ourselves why the Red Ribbon Army wanted world domination in the first place, which this movie maybe can explain better.
Majin Buu wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:03 am As for sparring, Goku and Fat Buu weren't officially sparring, but they might as well have been considering how friendly they were towards each other the entire time (anime filler makes this less obvious) and that they clearly weren't going all out. Goku outright compliments Buu's strength at one point and Buu is clearly flattered.
It's different. Goku fought Buu with the mindset of "this guy is a threat to Earth". Goku had "friendly interactions" with Frieza, Cell, and Black too, it doesn't change the fact that he still saw them as his enemy.

Meanwhile, with Zamasu (Zamasu before he became Black), Goku was genuinely convinced that Zamasu was a good guy.
goku the krump dancer wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:51 am Zamasu went from being "good"
It's more than what can be said for the other villains.

By the way even Toriyama said in an interview that he envisioned Zamasu as good once.
Toriyama:
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... alk-vol-2/

So he intended Zamasu to be originally good, like Shin. Both Zamasu and Shin were good people. However, Zamasu was very fastidious (he wanted a perfect universe) and so it backfired, because he saw mortals as imperfections.

The DBZ villains don't go through that kind of character arc, where they go from good to evil, and that's fine. But since we are moving forward, and not backward, why can't we have more villains like Zamasu, who were originally good, but became evil later? Why can't we have villains with a more complex backstory?
Last edited by SupremeKai25 on Tue May 24, 2022 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by capsulecorp » Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm

Mr Baggins wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:47 am "What is this antagonist doing for the story?" is a more important question to ask than just "Is this bad guy morally ambiguous?" -- plenty of bland villains are morally ambiguous, just as a lot of great villains are unrepentantly evil. The former question is what gives them meaning and narrative weight.
Well said, although I disagree that someone like Zamasu is actually morally ambiguous. Even Hitler thought what he was doing was "right" - that doesn't make him morally ambiguous, it just makes him wrong.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 24, 2022 12:56 pm

capsulecorp wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm
Mr Baggins wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:47 am "What is this antagonist doing for the story?" is a more important question to ask than just "Is this bad guy morally ambiguous?" -- plenty of bland villains are morally ambiguous, just as a lot of great villains are unrepentantly evil. The former question is what gives them meaning and narrative weight.
Well said, although I disagree that someone like Zamasu is actually morally ambiguous. Even Hitler thought what he was doing was "right" - that doesn't make him morally ambiguous, it just makes him wrong.
Can we please avoid Godwin Law? Why do people always have to mention Hitler? Can we, like, keep fiction and reality separated?

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by FPSSJ4_Goku » Tue May 24, 2022 1:20 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:56 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm
Mr Baggins wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 11:47 am "What is this antagonist doing for the story?" is a more important question to ask than just "Is this bad guy morally ambiguous?" -- plenty of bland villains are morally ambiguous, just as a lot of great villains are unrepentantly evil. The former question is what gives them meaning and narrative weight.
Well said, although I disagree that someone like Zamasu is actually morally ambiguous. Even Hitler thought what he was doing was "right" - that doesn't make him morally ambiguous, it just makes him wrong.
Can we please avoid Godwin Law? Why do people always have to mention Hitler? Can we, like, keep fiction and reality separated?
There isn't really a better comparison I can think of...
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 24, 2022 1:32 pm

FPSSJ4_Goku wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 1:20 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:56 pm
capsulecorp wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 12:53 pm

Well said, although I disagree that someone like Zamasu is actually morally ambiguous. Even Hitler thought what he was doing was "right" - that doesn't make him morally ambiguous, it just makes him wrong.
Can we please avoid Godwin Law? Why do people always have to mention Hitler? Can we, like, keep fiction and reality separated?
There isn't really a better comparison I can think of...
It's in very bad taste to compare a real guy who caused a real world war and killed real people to a fictional character who killed fictional people. It's also kind of manipulative, because you're trying to make me feel bad for daring to argue that Zamasu is a complex villain. But my friend, there's nothing personal, I'm just telling you what I observed about his motivations, also based on what Toriyama had in mind.

That you can't compare Zamasu to anyone else in Dragon Ball is the point, since there's no other villain like him. You don't need to force comparisons.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by Zephyr » Tue May 24, 2022 1:36 pm

Zamasu trying to commit genocide invites the comparison.

"Having a motive" doesn't make someone complex.

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ZeroNeonix
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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by ZeroNeonix » Tue May 24, 2022 1:42 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:10 amI don't know how much Toriyama wrote Moro, but he approved of the Heeters, and they are just generic pure evil monsters. Why do they want universe domination? Why are they evil? For fun and games, I guess.
The Heeters aren't a good example. They're businessmen. They want more money and power, like any capitalist. They want Frieza out of the way, because he's their middleman. With Frieza gone, they can keep all the money themselves.

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Re: Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue May 24, 2022 1:59 pm

Zephyr wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 1:36 pm Zamasu trying to commit genocide invites the comparison.

"Having a motive" doesn't make someone complex.
That's exactly where the complexity comes from.

If a villain kills people for fun, they are not complex. If a villain kills people for some ulterior motive, maybe because they believe that will somehow lead to peace, that is already more complex.

If a given villain A says "I'm killing you for fun", there's nothing to discuss. If a given villain B says "I'm killing you because I think this is the right thing to do", we can ask ourselves what the villain's true motives are or why he's thinking that. Therefore, villain B is more complex than villain A.

In Super, plenty of people were wondering what Black's true objectives were, after he kept talking about mortals abusing time and misusing their tools.

And consequently, it's one thing if the villains of this movie want to kill the protagonists for ???? evil reasons. It's another thing if they want to kill the protagonists because they see themselves as super heroes. At which point, we have to ask ourselves, why do they see themselves as super heroes?

The movie is saved if they write a genuinely good villain with nuanced motivations, because people like complex villains. That's why people adored New Broly, because he had a more complex backstory.

By the way, Zamasu being fictional is the reason why it's pointless to compare him to anyone real. I fail to see why I should care about a bunch of fictional civilians who don't exist. I lack emotional attachment because they are 1) extras and 2) not real, I don't see why him killing civilians should be a factor in understanding whether his motivations were sufficiently nuanced. I think they were and I think Toriyama and Toyotaro did a good job in writing the villain they wanted, someone who was originally good, but became twisted later on.
ZeroNeonix wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 1:42 pm
SupremeKai25 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:10 amI don't know how much Toriyama wrote Moro, but he approved of the Heeters, and they are just generic pure evil monsters. Why do they want universe domination? Why are they evil? For fun and games, I guess.
The Heeters aren't a good example. They're businessmen. They want more money and power, like any capitalist. They want Frieza out of the way, because he's their middleman. With Frieza gone, they can keep all the money themselves.
I mean, is there a reason why he felt the need to taunt Granolah about his dead mother? Or kill his mother in the first place? He still comes off as generic pure evil to me, like Frieza.

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