Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[anubisj]

I'm appalled to see people in such numbers clamor for, basically, more of the same.

I mean, I truly, really think Dragon Ball needs a "reset" of sorts, but it's understandable that fans want to see more of Goku and company, and are afraid of shaking things up too much. I also enjoy some of the new things they are releasing.

But, for the life of me, I'll never be able to fathom the "make canon" mentality of some people. Like, do you actually prefer having a "canoniced" cooler/hirudegarn/turles or whatever, a fifth broly movie, instead of a new enemy? What's wrong with the original movies? Why do those characters need to fit into the new stuff? And, even if you wish for that, for a "new" version of them, a silver cell or a "yellowed" cooler, or a purple pants broly, why is that even remotely preferable to a new, potentially interesting threat, something never seen before? It's not like we are having a dragon ball movie every week! It might turn out badly, or not, some people might like it, others not so much, but at least it's new (that's how I view it, at least).

Jeez, now I understand why Toriyama and friends are so scared to add new stuff to the table, and seem content to recycle the same concepts over and over. I hope I'm wrong, though.

It's possible to just...do both.

I'm sure it's clear for you, but, reading your sentence, and rereading my post, I don't know if I'm understanding you right. Both what?

You mean having two main villains, one recycled and one new? If that's the case, well yeah, it could work. Would be the first time that a movie has two main villains (I was referring to main villains in my post btw, not lackeys), but I guess I could be ok with it, if done correctly. I hate the whole concept of "canonizing" stuff with a passion, but I guess they could add, say, a "canon" Baby, joined by a new, original villain. It would make the "canon" fanbase happy, and the rest (though I'm not even sure there's many others), happy as well. And of course, all the Tuffle Parasite fans

Then again, maybe I'm misreading your post. It's just a short sentence, and I'm also kinda tired, so maybe you meant something else that I'm totally missing.

[ObnoxiousNamek]

I'm appalled to see people in such numbers clamor for, basically, more of the same.

I mean, I truly, really think Dragon Ball needs a "reset" of sorts, but it's understandable that fans want to see more of Goku and company, and are afraid of shaking things up too much. I also enjoy some of the new things they are releasing.

But, for the life of me, I'll never be able to fathom the "make canon" mentality of some people. Like, do you actually prefer having a "canoniced" cooler/hirudegarn/turles or whatever, a fifth broly movie, instead of a new enemy? What's wrong with the original movies? Why do those characters need to fit into the new stuff? And, even if you wish for that, for a "new" version of them, a silver cell or a "yellowed" cooler, or a purple pants broly, why is that even remotely preferable to a new, potentially interesting threat, something never seen before? It's not like we are having a dragon ball movie every week! It might turn out badly, or not, some people might like it, others not so much, but at least it's new (that's how I view it, at least).

Jeez, now I understand why Toriyama and friends are so scared to add new stuff to the table, and seem content to recycle the same concepts over and over. I hope I'm wrong, though.

It's possible to just...do both.

What would you have in mind for a new villian? It seems so hard for me to imagine somone with a skillset that goku & co havent faced already.

[Kodoshin]

I'm appalled to see people in such numbers clamor for, basically, more of the same.

I mean, I truly, really think Dragon Ball needs a "reset" of sorts, but it's understandable that fans want to see more of Goku and company, and are afraid of shaking things up too much. I also enjoy some of the new things they are releasing.

But, for the life of me, I'll never be able to fathom the "make canon" mentality of some people. Like, do you actually prefer having a "canoniced" cooler/hirudegarn/turles or whatever, a fifth broly movie, instead of a new enemy? What's wrong with the original movies? Why do those characters need to fit into the new stuff? And, even if you wish for that, for a "new" version of them, a silver cell or a "yellowed" cooler, or a purple pants broly, why is that even remotely preferable to a new, potentially interesting threat, something never seen before? It's not like we are having a dragon ball movie every week! It might turn out badly, or not, some people might like it, others not so much, but at least it's new (that's how I view it, at least).

Jeez, now I understand why Toriyama and friends are so scared to add new stuff to the table, and seem content to recycle the same concepts over and over. I hope I'm wrong, though.

It's possible to just...do both.

What would you have in mind for a new villian? It seems so hard for me to imagine somone with a skillset that goku & co havent faced already.

Just gonna jump into the conversation here and say that I think a ton of ground exists for power sets we haven't seen. Just looking around at other Shonen we can see a lot of that. Personally I've always liked the idea of a battleground where everyone had their raw speed/strength/available ki equalized. It'd give more cover to the author to make these interactions we see so much in Super with the side characters feel less forced.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, I meant that we could do stories that used both old and new villains. Write for the sake of a story and arc, not to be original. Any original character will inevitably take inspiration from someone else's work.

I mean, heck, this is Movie #21 here after all...

I'm appalled to see people in such numbers clamor for, basically, more of the same.

I mean, I truly, really think Dragon Ball needs a "reset" of sorts, but it's understandable that fans want to see more of Goku and company, and are afraid of shaking things up too much. I also enjoy some of the new things they are releasing.

But, for the life of me, I'll never be able to fathom the "make canon" mentality of some people. Like, do you actually prefer having a "canoniced" cooler/hirudegarn/turles or whatever, a fifth broly movie, instead of a new enemy? What's wrong with the original movies? Why do those characters need to fit into the new stuff? And, even if you wish for that, for a "new" version of them, a silver cell or a "yellowed" cooler, or a purple pants broly, why is that even remotely preferable to a new, potentially interesting threat, something never seen before? It's not like we are having a dragon ball movie every week! It might turn out badly, or not, some people might like it, others not so much, but at least it's new (that's how I view it, at least).

Jeez, now I understand why Toriyama and friends are so scared to add new stuff to the table, and seem content to recycle the same concepts over and over. I hope I'm wrong, though.

It's possible to just...do both.

What would you have in mind for a new villian? It seems so hard for me to imagine somone with a skillset that goku & co havent faced already.

Toriyama's weakness is ink, right? And he prefers simple designs, right? If we assume that Som Gokuu is in part just a piece of Toriyama then it stands to reason that Gokuu's ultimate foe would be...a fully inked in figure. That would also be an easy design to animate!

Now, what can ink do? We know that ink gives Toriyama hives, so what if this character made of ink gave a sickness to all of Gokuu's friends and family, one-by-one? Son Gokuu, pushed into a situation where he must persevere without support is a test we haven't quite seen in a while. Heck, what if ink killed Gokuu?

[Jack Bz]

I don't mind the idea of Toriyama using established fan service concepts like his take on an evil Goku with Goku Black.

But I really would not want the basis of multiple films going forward to be canonising popular Toei Dragon Ball characters because, honestly, they're all far less interesting than his own villains. It's incredibly limiting for no reason, and seems a very profit driven idea of basing the creative material around what is guaranteed to sell (and the success of Broly makes me think they might try it again).

If every time a film is announced we play the game of guessing which Toei creation is going to be the villain this time, I'd probably just check out eventually. Say what you will about Dragon Ball Super, but it always manages to surprise me in a way the films usually don't.

And I loved the Broly movie! I loved it as an experiment of what Toriyama would do bringing a non-canon character to canon. I loved the art and animation. But he's done that now. Another concept, please.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, I meant that we could do stories that used both old and new villains. Write for the sake of a story and arc, not to be original. Any original character will inevitably take inspiration from someone else's work.

I mean, heck, this is Movie #21 here after all...

It's possible to just...do both.

What would you have in mind for a new villian? It seems so hard for me to imagine somone with a skillset that goku & co havent faced already.

Toriyama's weakness is ink, right? And he prefers simple designs, right? If we assume that Som Gokuu is in part just a piece of Toriyama then it stands to reason that Gokuu's ultimate foe would be...a fully inked in figure. That would also be an easy design to animate!

Now, what can ink do? We know that ink gives Toriyama hives, so what if this character made of ink gave a sickness to all of Gokuu's friends and family, one-by-one? Son Gokuu, pushed into a situation where he must persevere without support is a test we haven't quite seen in a while. Heck, what if ink killed Gokuu?

If they are made of ink, the villain could just throw ink on UI Goku and turn his migatte off, he could do that to everybody, just revert them back to their base form on the spot, just by blackening their hair. Maybe throw some ink on Goku's face and make it be a deep, painful wound, Goku's made of ink after all.

[JulieYBM]

Yeah, I meant that we could do stories that used both old and new villains. Write for the sake of a story and arc, not to be original. Any original character will inevitably take inspiration from someone else's work.

I mean, heck, this is Movie #21 here after all...

What would you have in mind for a new villian? It seems so hard for me to imagine somone with a skillset that goku & co havent faced already.

Toriyama's weakness is ink, right? And he prefers simple designs, right? If we assume that Som Gokuu is in part just a piece of Toriyama then it stands to reason that Gokuu's ultimate foe would be...a fully inked in figure. That would also be an easy design to animate!

Now, what can ink do? We know that ink gives Toriyama hives, so what if this character made of ink gave a sickness to all of Gokuu's friends and family, one-by-one? Son Gokuu, pushed into a situation where he must persevere without support is a test we haven't quite seen in a while. Heck, what if ink killed Gokuu?

If they are made of ink, the villain could just throw ink on UI Goku and turn his migatte off, he could do that to everybody, just revert them back to their base form on the spot, just by blackening their hair. Maybe throw some ink on Goku's face and make it be a deep, painful wound, Goku's made of ink after all.

Genuinely great idea.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, I meant that we could do stories that used both old and new villains. Write for the sake of a story and arc, not to be original. Any original character will inevitably take inspiration from someone else's work.

I mean, heck, this is Movie #21 here after all...

What would you have in mind for a new villian? It seems so hard for me to imagine somone with a skillset that goku & co havent faced already.

Toriyama's weakness is ink, right? And he prefers simple designs, right? If we assume that Som Gokuu is in part just a piece of Toriyama then it stands to reason that Gokuu's ultimate foe would be...a fully inked in figure. That would also be an easy design to animate!

Now, what can ink do? We know that ink gives Toriyama hives, so what if this character made of ink gave a sickness to all of Gokuu's friends and family, one-by-one? Son Gokuu, pushed into a situation where he must persevere without support is a test we haven't quite seen in a while. Heck, what if ink killed Gokuu?

If they are made of ink, the villain could just throw ink on UI Goku and turn his migatte off, he could do that to everybody, just revert them back to their base form on the spot, just by blackening their hair. Maybe throw some ink on Goku's face and make it be a deep, painful wound, Goku's made of ink after all.

And without transformations, Piccolo saves the day this time!

[Cold Skin]

I'm not worried about the movie itself, I'm always glad to get more main DB content and never disappointed.
But I do hope they take the manga continuation into consideration one way or another.

For example, if the new movie happens just after Broly and before Moro, they can't have Goku turning Ultra Instinct easily whenever he wants or stating he has now mastered its activation. But if it happens after Moro, they should have Goku activating Ultra Instinct easily.
Or they can't have a character joining the Dragon Team at the end before the Moro arc and mysteriously not showing up during the Moro conflict.

Those are just (unlikely) examples, but whatever happens in the movie, it should be inserted seamlessly in the wider story, taking in account what happens in the manga-exclusive arcs that will inevitably be adapted into anime episodes in due time.

We can't see the movie and go "well, that's it, the movie continuation and the manga continuation are now two incompatible continuations, which one happened?"

[kemuri07]

I'm appalled to see people in such numbers clamor for, basically, more of the same.

I mean, I truly, really think Dragon Ball needs a "reset" of sorts, but it's understandable that fans want to see more of Goku and company, and are afraid of shaking things up too much. I also enjoy some of the new things they are releasing.

But, for the life of me, I'll never be able to fathom the "make canon" mentality of some people. Like, do you actually prefer having a "canoniced" cooler/hirudegarn/turles or whatever, a fifth broly movie, instead of a new enemy? What's wrong with the original movies? Why do those characters need to fit into the new stuff? And, even if you wish for that, for a "new" version of them, a silver cell or a "yellowed" cooler, or a purple pants broly, why is that even remotely preferable to a new, potentially interesting threat, something never seen before? It's not like we are having a dragon ball movie every week! It might turn out badly, or not, some people might like it, others not so much, but at least it's new (that's how I view it, at least).

Jeez, now I understand why Toriyama and friends are so scared to add new stuff to the table, and seem content to recycle the same concepts over and over. I hope I'm wrong, though.

I mean, I've always been in this camp. If we're gonna have more DB, then something should happen that significantly shakes the status quo. Unfortunately, people don't like change, and just want fanservice. Which, don't get me wrong, is fine. And DBZ has well earned that victory lap. But I would love to see something surprising from this franchise.

[HeroR]

I'm not worried about the movie itself, I'm always glad to get more main DB content and never disappointed.
But I do hope they take the manga continuation into consideration one way or another.

For example, if the new movie happens just after Broly and before Moro, they can't have Goku turning Ultra Instinct easily whenever he wants or stating he has now mastered its activation. But if it happens after Moro, they should have Goku activating Ultra Instinct easily.
Or they can't have a character joining the Dragon Team at the end before the Moro arc and mysteriously not showing up during the Moro conflict.

Those are just (unlikely) examples, but whatever happens in the movie, it should be inserted seamlessly in the wider story, taking in account what happens in the manga-exclusive arcs that will inevitably be adapted into anime episodes in due time.

We can't see the movie and go "well, that's it, the movie continuation and the manga continuation are now two incompatible continuations, which one happened?"

There’s really nothing suggesting that the anime will adapt the manga if it returns.

[ZombieVito]

I'm not worried about the movie itself, I'm always glad to get more main DB content and never disappointed.
But I do hope they take the manga continuation into consideration one way or another.

For example, if the new movie happens just after Broly and before Moro, they can't have Goku turning Ultra Instinct easily whenever he wants or stating he has now mastered its activation. But if it happens after Moro, they should have Goku activating Ultra Instinct easily.
Or they can't have a character joining the Dragon Team at the end before the Moro arc and mysteriously not showing up during the Moro conflict.

Those are just (unlikely) examples, but whatever happens in the movie, it should be inserted seamlessly in the wider story, taking in account what happens in the manga-exclusive arcs that will inevitably be adapted into anime episodes in due time.

We can't see the movie and go "well, that's it, the movie continuation and the manga continuation are now two incompatible continuations, which one happened?"

There’s really nothing suggesting that the anime will adapt the manga if it returns.

Granolah will be adapted. It is a Toriyama draft after all.

Moro is up the air right now. Movie should make things clearer where the anime is going when it returns.

[HeroR]

I'm not worried about the movie itself, I'm always glad to get more main DB content and never disappointed.
But I do hope they take the manga continuation into consideration one way or another.

For example, if the new movie happens just after Broly and before Moro, they can't have Goku turning Ultra Instinct easily whenever he wants or stating he has now mastered its activation. But if it happens after Moro, they should have Goku activating Ultra Instinct easily.
Or they can't have a character joining the Dragon Team at the end before the Moro arc and mysteriously not showing up during the Moro conflict.

Those are just (unlikely) examples, but whatever happens in the movie, it should be inserted seamlessly in the wider story, taking in account what happens in the manga-exclusive arcs that will inevitably be adapted into anime episodes in due time.

We can't see the movie and go "well, that's it, the movie continuation and the manga continuation are now two incompatible continuations, which one happened?"

There’s really nothing suggesting that the anime will adapt the manga if it returns.

Granolah will be adapted. It is a Toriyama draft after all.

Moro is up the air right now. Movie should make things clearer where the anime is going when it returns.

People keep saying that yet Toriyama made literally no designs, not even for Granolah. Nor is the arc acknowledged to exist anywhere when anything with Toriyama’s involvement is hype to high heaven like his design for Shallot and 21. Even a really minor character in Kakarot got hype because Toriyama designed her.

[ZombieVito]

There’s really nothing suggesting that the anime will adapt the manga if it returns.

Granolah will be adapted. It is a Toriyama draft after all.

Moro is up the air right now. Movie should make things clearer where the anime is going when it returns.

People keep saying that yet Toriyama made literally no designs, not even for Granolah. Nor is the arc acknowledged to exist anywhere when anything with Toriyama’s involvement is hype to high heaven like his design for Shallot and 21. Even a really minor character in Kakarot got hype because Toriyama designed her.

And? The arc was still drafted by him.

[MCDaveG]

I would like to see some Epilogue, ultimate movie of Dragon Ball. Pour everything in. Address the past villains and past adventures, move beyond EoZ and move away from the plot of heroes vs villain, just fighting. I really liked the Director's Cut of Battle Of Gods. It was reunion of everyone we liked + ''friendly''bout with a god and introduction of another level of DB God Pantheon.

If it was Cooler with altered and new design, with new backstory and then just a fight with great choreography - huge dissapointment.

[Kinokima]

I don't mind the idea of Toriyama using established fan service concepts like his take on an evil Goku with Goku Black.

But I really would not want the basis of multiple films going forward to be canonising popular Toei Dragon Ball characters because, honestly, they're all far less interesting than his own villains. It's incredibly limiting for no reason, and seems a very profit driven idea of basing the creative material around what is guaranteed to sell (and the success of Broly makes me think they might try it again).

If every time a film is announced we play the game of guessing which Toei creation is going to be the villain this time, I'd probably just check out eventually. Say what you will about Dragon Ball Super, but it always manages to surprise me in a way the films usually don't.

And I loved the Broly movie! I loved it as an experiment of what Toriyama would do bringing a non-canon character to canon. I loved the art and animation. But he's done that now. Another concept, please.

Definitely agree with this sentiment but from the comments so far by Toriyama I am afraid that is what we will get. Well it might not be a Toei character returning it could be any old villain returning and that doesn’t interest me much

But to be fair I guess introducing a new villain in a movie is always hard to begin with. That is part of the reason why the Toei Movie villains are not that great because you only have a couple hours to get to know them and make them a threat. A returning villain can at least cut down on some exposition (although Broly didn’t go that path). I just find it a bit boring.

[HeroR]

Granolah will be adapted. It is a Toriyama draft after all.

Moro is up the air right now. Movie should make things clearer where the anime is going when it returns.

People keep saying that yet Toriyama made literally no designs, not even for Granolah. Nor is the arc acknowledged to exist anywhere when anything with Toriyama’s involvement is hype to high heaven like his design for Shallot and 21. Even a really minor character in Kakarot got hype because Toriyama designed her.

And? The arc was still drafted by him.

When was the last time Toriyama drafted a story, but did literally no character designs? Or when was the last time Toriyama drafted a script that wasn’t hype everywhere?

[Rebel Instinct]

People keep saying that yet Toriyama made literally no designs, not even for Granolah. Nor is the arc acknowledged to exist anywhere when anything with Toriyama’s involvement is hype to high heaven like his design for Shallot and 21. Even a really minor character in Kakarot got hype because Toriyama designed her.

When was the last time Toriyama drafted a story, but did literally no character designs? Or when was the last time Toriyama drafted a script that wasn’t hype everywhere?

Ah yes, "hype": the one true objective metric for determining validity/canonicity. You really are scraping the bottom of the bucket these days in your efforts to delegitimize the manga.

Even going so far as to act like there's been absolutely no acknowledgment of the arc's existence anywhere? Spare me.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1340599748810559491

The above interview clearly states Toriyama's direct involvement in the creation of the current arc - you're actually disagreeing with the creators on how much involvement they have on their own property. On top of that, we now get official early drafts of the upcoming chapters uploaded to the official Dragon Ball website to generate buzz and anticipation and each chapter now receives it's very own unique hype trailer every month. Events in the manga even regularly trend on Twitter, depending on the chapter. Just because you either don't bother doing any research at all before making claims like this, or willfully refuse to acknowledge any of the above as "mattering" is not the manga's problem. Every official source on the matter disagrees with you.

Buuuuut, I suppose if you want to pretend like none of that amounts to anything or has any value whatsoever, then sure! This arc barely exists! No one talks about it at all! It totally doesn't get any pre-release buzz! Toriyama has barely anything to do with it! The manga isn't acknowledged by the powers that be as a legitimate continuation of the Dragon Ball series one bit!

Crass sarcasm aside, I'm not about to continue bickering about this like a child with you (or anyone else), so I'm ending this here. I know better than to try to have a conversation with you on this subject. It's been literal years now and I'll have no part in continuously failing to change your already made up mind. So, have at it. Do as you please.

[HeroR]

People keep saying that yet Toriyama made literally no designs, not even for Granolah. Nor is the arc acknowledged to exist anywhere when anything with Toriyama’s involvement is hype to high heaven like his design for Shallot and 21. Even a really minor character in Kakarot got hype because Toriyama designed her.

When was the last time Toriyama drafted a story, but did literally no character designs? Or when was the last time Toriyama drafted a script that wasn’t hype everywhere?

Ah yes, "hype": the one true objective metric for determining validity/canonicity. You really are scraping the bottom of the bucket these days in your efforts to delegitimize the manga.

Even going so far as to act like there's been absolutely no acknowledgment of the arc's existence anywhere? Spare me.

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1340599748810559491

The above interview clearly states Toriyama's direct involvement in the creation of the current arc - you're actually disagreeing with the creators on how much involvement they have on their own property. On top of that, we now get official early drafts of the upcoming chapters uploaded to the official Dragon Ball website to generate buzz and anticipation and each chapter now receives it's very own unique hype trailer every month. Events in the manga even regularly trend on Twitter, depending on the chapter. Just because you either don't bother doing any research at all before making claims like this, or willfully refuse to acknowledge any of the above as "mattering" is not the manga's problem. Every official source on the matter disagrees with you.

Buuuuut, I suppose if you want to pretend like none of that amounts to anything or has any value whatsoever, then sure! This arc barely exists! No one talks about it at all! It totally doesn't get any pre-release buzz! Toriyama has barely anything to do with it! The manga isn't acknowledged by the powers that be as a legitimate continuation of the Dragon Ball series one bit!

Crass sarcasm aside, I'm not about to continue bickering about this like a child with you (or anyone else), so I'm ending this here. I know better than to try to have a conversation with you on this subject. It's been literal years now and I'll have no part in continuously failing to change your already made up mind. So, have at it. Do as you please.

I never even mentioned ‘canon’. I said, it’s odd that the latest story arc is Toriyama drafted yet Toriyama literally did no designs even for the main characters despite him doing so in every story arc in Super nor does it get any major advisement for being Toriyama’s work unlike everything Toriyama ever breaths on. And when I say advisement, I don’t mean a section in the manga that only people who follow the manga reads since the manga isn’t that popular. I’m saying stuff like having advisement in stuff like Heroes or even merchandise since that’s where most of Dragon Ball’s money come from, which is how 21 gets fingers and Shallot is a face of a Gacha. It can’t be spoilers since Japan in general don’t care about that and most tend to read manga over anime anyway.

And nice generalization since I read that interview because I follow Herms and read the original translation. Even weirder that I haven’t talked about the manga in months, yet you act like I regularly do. And also weird that I have never once talkies about canon.

If you had no intention of a conversation, then why did you even respond? I wasn’t even talking to you, so you came into a debate in session, basically call me an idiot, then act like you’re taking the higher ground. Like, really?

[ZombieVito]

People keep saying that yet Toriyama made literally no designs, not even for Granolah. Nor is the arc acknowledged to exist anywhere when anything with Toriyama’s involvement is hype to high heaven like his design for Shallot and 21. Even a really minor character in Kakarot got hype because Toriyama designed her.

And? The arc was still drafted by him.

When was the last time Toriyama drafted a story, but did literally no character designs? Or when was the last time Toriyama drafted a script that wasn’t hype everywhere?

But the arc hasn't been animated yet. Why hype it?